Is Seven a Borg "Princess"

[Thestral]

It may "fit" some sort of evidence, but I don't like this theory and consider it absolute hogwash personally. The concept that not only was Seven a human, from the Alpha Quadrant, assimilated from a Starfleet vessel, freed by Voyager and made front and center for the viewers, but after all that is still Mary-Sue-ish enough that she's also a Borg "Princess"!? What, is she gonna end up captaining an Enterprise and become President of the Federation eventually too?

What are the odds, the incredible incredible odds of this? And how stupid are the Borg that they'd send not just any drone, but a potential Queen, into enemy hands - they saw what happened with Locutus, how could they not think this would happen again? Insects don't send Queens on potential scouting missions, they have soldiers for that.

No. Seven was a highly placed drone with access to a lot of high-level functions, even close to the Queen, but just a drone. Anything else is just too unbelievably convenient.

 

[exodus]

What are the odds, the incredible incredible odds of this? And how stupid are the Borg that they'd send not just any drone, but a potential Queen, into enemy hands - they saw what happened with Locutus, how could they not think this would happen again? Insects don't send Queens on potential scouting missions, they have soldiers for that.

Good point.

The other question is, if Seven were to become a Queen, the what happens to the personality that was Seven? Is everything erased and the Queen's downloaded into her? The Queen is more than just a drone, she is the Borg.

Yes "Dark Frontier" mentions Seven is special but they also mention assimilating Earth with a airborne nano-virus and nothing ever came of that either. Not to mention if Seven was so special to the Queen, she never tried again to get her back after "Dark Frontier". Aren't the Borg supposed to be relentless? The Queen tried getting Picard back by using Data as bait in "First Contact".

 

[Anwar]

I suppose you can rationalize that after "Dark Frontier" the Queen decided to wait until Seven got back to Earth and then would attack to get her back while unleashing the nanoprobes on Earth.

 

[exodus]

I suppose you can rationalize that after "Dark Frontier" the Queen decided to wait until Seven got back to Earth and then would attack to get her back while unleashing the nanoprobes on Earth.

I figured the Queen would inject Seven with the virus which would be released upon returning to Earth. Why waste the resourses with an attack for one person, especially after the Borg were rebuilding after their battle with Species 8472.

If anything "Dark Frontier" proved the Queen had the ability to manipulate Seven into coming to her.

 

[Brit]

What are the odds, the incredible incredible odds of this? And how stupid are the Borg that they'd send not just any drone, but a potential Queen, into enemy hands - they saw what happened with Locutus, how could they not think this would happen again? Insects don't send Queens on potential scouting missions, they have soldiers for that.

We are not dealing with odds, Kestrel. We are dealing with fiction, world building, and an attempt to explain why Seven was different from any other drone shown from “Next Generation” to “Endgame.” Even the Queen in “Dark Frontier” said Seven was unique, and that is one point where I believe the Queen spoke the truth.

But since you want to talk about odds, if the Queen is born free and taken young, then probably every female taken at the optimal age was programmed in a way that would allow her to become a Queen. There could easily have been thousands of females of varying ages that either could be Queen, or could have been Queen at one time. The odds also dramatically turn in Seven’s favor when you think that she was the first female human of the optimal age to be assimilated.

The Borg have no imagination, they are the machine's vision of perfection, they do not create they seize. The Queen is the one individual in the hive mind, she directs, she is even allowed a personality. The problem with the Borg is that they cannot conceive of failure, even when it stares them in the face. They cannot improvise they can only adapt.

For all the power that some would believe the Borg had, the power of numbers especially, they couldn't imagine, and because of that they had no perception of no, and can't. That lack of perception can serve you well in the short run but if you don’t know when to run away you will eventually get destroyed.

The Borg didn't adapt to Species 8472, they just attacked again and again head on. They tried to assimilate only to fail over and over; it didn't look like they were learning anything. Yes the Borg are relentless, but their flaw is that they will also relentlessly pursue their own destruction.

Their assimilation of worlds and people, of technology accelerated, gaining speed with each world taken, with each soul silenced. They did not know defeat, only the drive to acquire and with artificial logic they held an unwavering belief in the gospel of perfection, and that their mandate took precedence over all others, as if it had been handed down from some Borg Deity. They forced their will on anyone that held a new innovation, appropriating it to service them. They believed their right was to take what they deemed necessary to their quest and to reproduce themselves with unwilling people.

In their arrogance they failed to see the trap before them. They did not understand that they were only invincible until they met the race they could not assimilate, or the one that possessed the power and will to resist.

So for hundreds of years the Borg moved out in a terrible jihad that each Queen directed. She ruled until the degeneration of her brain rendered her useless. Then she was replaced and what organic properties remained to her were absorbed back into the collective, and she like any other drone, in the end became just one more source of raw material.

The Borg thought the game was no-trump. The universe had other ideas.

As for Seven of Nine, she was simply free and that was the greatest gift of all. Would she become a starship captain or president of the Federation, I don’t know because just like real life she has the potential to be anything she wants. Quite frankly that would be another story.

I suppose you can rationalize that after "Dark Frontier" the Queen decided to wait until Seven got back to Earth and then would attack to get her back while unleashing the nanoprobes on Earth.

I figured the Queen would inject Seven with the virus which would be released upon returning to Earth. Why waste the resourses with an attack for one person, especially after the Borg were rebuilding after their battle with Species 8472.

If anything "Dark Frontier" proved the Queen had the ability to manipulate Seven into coming to her.

Or the Queen simply quit pursuing Seven at all and after "Unimatrix Zero" used her kill switch, as in “Imperfection.”

Brit

 

[exodus]

^^Are you implying you believe it was the Queen that caused Seven's node to malfunction?

 

[Brit]

No I'm not implying, I am saying it straight out. The being that controls the Borg could easily have a kill switch built into drones, especially those that were in the "inner circle" as Seven was. It could even be programmed to malfunction at some length of time after a "Princess" was severed.

I've toyed with that idea for about three years now.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

She obviously doesn't have individual kill switches otherwise she would have had to have detonated all those Borg Vessels in UNimatrix Zero just to rub out the crews. then after what Hugh, and Icheb did, they should think about looking into the tech to partition off single drones if they do have to worried about infections.

 

[Brit]

She obviously doesn't have individual kill switches otherwise she would have had to have detonated all those Borg Vessels in UNimatrix Zero just to rub out the crews. then after what Hugh, and Icheb did, they should think about looking into the tech to partition off single drones if they do have to worried about infections.

Guy, that is very true. But I think Queens had other modifications, like the emotion dampener, so the kill switch would be reasonable. I do think that the Queen was killing drones in "Unimatrix Zero" just to try to get next to Janeway. That was way overkill for it to be any other reason. Apparently the Queen doesn't understand the statement, "better dead than Borg."

Brit

 

[exodus]

No I'm not implying, I am saying it straight out. The being that controls the Borg could easily have a kill switch built into drones, especially those that were in the "inner circle" as Seven was. It could even be programmed to malfunction at some length of time after a "Princess" was severed.

I've toyed with that idea for about three years now.

Brit

Evidence we've in "Dark Frontier" contradicts this.

The Hansens had a drone from the "inner circle" on their ship, tampered with it and returned it. If she had that ability, once again why would she allow such a valued drone to fall into enemy hands? Why not just flip the kill switch? Borg already come back for technology & dead drones as a protective measure but you're going to let a valued drone be tampered with, possably infected and returned right back to the Queens doorstep, when she could have shut him down dead.

Sorry but I'm not buying it.

 

[Anwar]

Maybe it was something the Borg installed on all drones after BOBW since a captured drone is what led to their defeat there.

 

[exodus]

Maybe it was something the Borg installed on all drones after BOBW since a captured drone is what led to their defeat there.

Hugh didn't

The Borg in "Decent"

Drones in "Unity"

Drones in "Survival Instinct""

Etc.

We've seen several drones get away from the collective, fall into enemy hands and some even to return again. None had some termination device.

Brit is writing a story, so I see her ideas as just taking liberities and that's fine.
This is why books aren't canon.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Some books should be shot out of a cannon.

 

[KimMH]

I enjoy the freedom of alternate existences that fanfic offers and I can't wait to read your latest Brit!

 

[Brit]

No I'm not implying, I am saying it straight out. The being that controls the Borg could easily have a kill switch built into drones, especially those that were in the "inner circle" as Seven was. It could even be programmed to malfunction at some length of time after a "Princess" was severed.

I've toyed with that idea for about three years now.

Brit

Evidence we've in "Dark Frontier" contradicts this.

The Hansens had a drone from the "inner circle" on their ship, tampered with it and returned it. If she had that ability, once again why would she allow such a valued drone to fall into enemy hands? Why not just flip the kill switch? Borg already come back for technology & dead drones as a protective measure but you're going to let a valued drone be tampered with, possably infected and returned right back to the Queens doorstep, when she could have shut him down dead.

Sorry but I'm not buying it.

One problem with your analogy is that you are using a male drone as an example, I am talking about female drones that have undergone the "royal Jelly" programming. They would be the only ones with a kill switch, and the only ones with an emotion dampener. For any other drone, the Queen by her existence is the "kill switch" so long as the drone is in her power, but what would you do with the Queen that goes wrong.

If the Queens give themselves to the Borg freely, then they must be set free somewhere and perhaps the "kill switch" is to take care of those that do not come back, and to recall the Queen that fails.

Brit

 

[exodus]

No I'm not implying, I am saying it straight out. The being that controls the Borg could easily have a kill switch built into drones, especially those that were in the "inner circle" as Seven was. It could even be programmed to malfunction at some length of time after a "Princess" was severed.

I've toyed with that idea for about three years now.

Brit

Evidence we've in "Dark Frontier" contradicts this.

The Hansens had a drone from the "inner circle" on their ship, tampered with it and returned it. If she had that ability, once again why would she allow such a valued drone to fall into enemy hands? Why not just flip the kill switch? Borg already come back for technology & dead drones as a protective measure but you're going to let a valued drone be tampered with, possably infected and returned right back to the Queens doorstep, when she could have shut him down dead.

Sorry but I'm not buying it.

One problem with your analogy is that you are using a male drone as an example, I am talking about female drones that have undergone the "royal Jelly" programming. They would be the only ones with a kill switch, and the only ones with an emotion dampener. For any other drone, the Queen by her existence is the "kill switch" so long as the drone is in her power, but what would you do with the Queen that goes wrong.

If the Queens give themselves to the Borg freely, then they must be set free somewhere and perhaps the "kill switch" is to take care of those that do not come back, and to recall the Queen that fails.

Brit

It's not an analogy because I'm not comparing anything. What I did was give examples of drones that were high in "rank" and have been taken out of the collective and no kill switch was activated. So, I don't buy into your idea within canon. I however did say it makes for great fan fiction for the story you're writing.

 

[kes7]

No I'm not implying, I am saying it straight out. The being that controls the Borg could easily have a kill switch built into drones, especially those that were in the "inner circle" as Seven was. It could even be programmed to malfunction at some length of time after a "Princess" was severed.

I've toyed with that idea for about three years now.

Brit

Evidence we've in "Dark Frontier" contradicts this.

The Hansens had a drone from the "inner circle" on their ship, tampered with it and returned it. If she had that ability, once again why would she allow such a valued drone to fall into enemy hands? Why not just flip the kill switch? Borg already come back for technology & dead drones as a protective measure but you're going to let a valued drone be tampered with, possably infected and returned right back to the Queens doorstep, when she could have shut him down dead.

Sorry but I'm not buying it.

One problem with your analogy is that you are using a male drone as an example, I am talking about female drones that have undergone the "royal Jelly" programming. They would be the only ones with a kill switch, and the only ones with an emotion dampener. For any other drone, the Queen by her existence is the "kill switch" so long as the drone is in her power, but what would you do with the Queen that goes wrong.

If the Queens give themselves to the Borg freely, then they must be set free somewhere and perhaps the "kill switch" is to take care of those that do not come back, and to recall the Queen that fails.

Brit

I would argue the exact opposite regarding the emotional dampeners -- I think regular drones had them, potential queen types did not. Seven did not encounter any problems with strong emotion until after the installation of Icheb's cortical node, and Icheb seemed much more capable of displaying strong emotion after his cortical node was gone. Even within the episode "Imperfection," the difference in Icheb was pretty clear before and after the removal of the node -- from calm and rational (if a little frustrated) to shouting at everyone. You could argue it was just the situation making him act that way, but even later on, he had much more personality after the node was gone and even screamed at Q Junior in Q2.

Oh, and Seven's "child," One, seemed not to have problems dealing with emotion, and all his Borg "DNA" (nanoprobes, whatever) came from Seven pre-cortical node transplant.

(On the other hand, this could all just be sloppy writing. Given the fact we're talking about Voyager, the Show of Missed Opportunities, here, that's sadly probably the case.)

 

[Brit]

I would argue the exact opposite regarding the emotional dampeners -- I think regular drones had them, potential queen types did not. Seven did not encounter any problems with strong emotion until after the installation of Icheb's cortical node, and Icheb seemed much more capable of displaying strong emotion after his cortical node was gone. Even within the episode "Imperfection," the difference in Icheb was pretty clear before and after the removal of the node -- from calm and rational (if a little frustrated) to shouting at everyone. You could argue it was just the situation making him act that way, but even later on, he had much more personality after the node was gone and even screamed at Q Junior in Q2.

Oh, and Seven's "child," One, seemed not to have problems dealing with emotion, and all his Borg "DNA" (nanoprobes, whatever) came from Seven pre-cortical node transplant.

(On the other hand, this could all just be sloppy writing. Given the fact we're talking about Voyager, the Show of Missed Opportunities, here, that's sadly probably the case.)

That is interesting, but my problem is that we saw several people reclaimed from the Borg and there was a general lack of emotion dampeners. And yes you are right about the sloppy writing, on the other hand it's a challenge to take all that and try to come up with a workable scenario.

What I came up with was the proto queen is taken young (probably the equivalent five to eight year old female child.) That would have the child’s sense of self in place (the id as it were) but the ego as yet unformed ready to be programmed. Her identity would be shaped around being Borg, she would be a manipulated individual. The dampener would be there to make sure the proto queen stayed programmed until she was made a Queen. I do think that it’s pretty obvious that the Queen in First Contact didn’t have a dampener.

This however didn't work in Seven's case, but then my vision of the Borg is a civilization that doesn't create only takes. If the unpredictable happens they cannot imagine a way around it. We saw that with Species 8472, the Borg simply attacked again and again, tried to assimilate again and again. It was always head on just like they had done always before. The creative, imaginative culture would have backed off and said "Well, this isn't working, it's time to try something else."

Brit

 

[kes7]

I would argue the exact opposite regarding the emotional dampeners -- I think regular drones had them, potential queen types did not. Seven did not encounter any problems with strong emotion until after the installation of Icheb's cortical node, and Icheb seemed much more capable of displaying strong emotion after his cortical node was gone. Even within the episode "Imperfection," the difference in Icheb was pretty clear before and after the removal of the node -- from calm and rational (if a little frustrated) to shouting at everyone. You could argue it was just the situation making him act that way, but even later on, he had much more personality after the node was gone and even screamed at Q Junior in Q2.

Oh, and Seven's "child," One, seemed not to have problems dealing with emotion, and all his Borg "DNA" (nanoprobes, whatever) came from Seven pre-cortical node transplant.

(On the other hand, this could all just be sloppy writing. Given the fact we're talking about Voyager, the Show of Missed Opportunities, here, that's sadly probably the case.)

That is interesting, but my problem is that we saw several people reclaimed from the Borg and there was a general lack of emotion dampeners. And yes you are right about the sloppy writing, on the other hand it's a challenge to take all that and try to come up with a workable scenario.

What I came up with was the proto queen is taken young (probably the equivalent five to eight year old female child.) That would have the child’s sense of self in place (the id as it were) but the ego as yet unformed ready to be programmed. Her identity would be shaped around being Borg, she would be a manipulated individual. The dampener would be there to make sure the proto queen stayed programmed until she was made a Queen. I do think that it’s pretty obvious that the Queen in First Contact didn’t have a dampener.

This however didn't work in Seven's case, but then my vision of the Borg is a civilization that doesn't create only takes. If the unpredictable happens they cannot imagine a way around it. We saw that with Species 8472, the Borg simply attacked again and again, tried to assimilate again and again. It was always head on just like they had done always before. The creative, imaginative culture would have backed off and said "Well, this isn't working, it's time to try something else."

Brit

Well, the Queen's nanovirus idea for assimilating humanity was kind of original (Dark Frontier). So that showed at least a small ability to think outside the box (cube? hehe, couldn't resist that one). Much better than the idiocy we saw coming from the Borg in Scorpion. That one drone that just kept on trying to assimilate the bioship kind of made me want to cry, he was so dumb. What's the use of having the most advanced tech in the galaxy and a hive mind with the collective intelligence of trillions if you all end up THAT stupid?

 

[Brit]

Well, the Queen's nanovirus idea for assimilating humanity was kind of original (Dark Frontier). So that showed at least a small ability to think outside the box (cube? hehe, couldn't resist that one). Much better than the idiocy we saw coming from the Borg in Scorpion. That one drone that just kept on trying to assimilate the bioship kind of made me want to cry, he was so dumb. What's the use of having the most advanced tech in the galaxy and a hive mind with the collective intelligence of trillions if you all end up THAT stupid?

I had to think the nanovirus through, this is what I came up with.

In the mean time the Borg assimilated a people with advanced weather and agricultural technology. It included an interesting virus that could be released in the upper atmosphere of a planet. The inventers had used it to introduce nutrients back into their soil, but with the inclusion of Borg micro assimilation nanoprobes, they could assimilate worlds with it.

I rather like a quote from one of the later Dune books by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson, "The weakness of thinking machines is that they actually believe all the information they receive, and react accordingly." It brought to mind Picard and Data telling the Drones to regenerate at the end of "Best of Both Worlds."

Brit