Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really work

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Do you have any proof that Tuvok and Neelix weren't dead?

As for proof that they were dead? They didn't exist, and if the procedure hadn't occurred they would have continued to not exist. Sounds pretty dead to me.

Well they did come back so that sounds pretty alive to me they continued in their lives. Your proof doesn't hold up, expecially in light of Trek canon.

As for the subject of transporters.
Let's see ...
In Enterprise (whether you consider it canon or not ... it IS canon), there was the episode with the person who invented the transporter.
He clearly stated that the transporter does not kill an individual in any capacity, because all it does is convert matter into energy and transfers it to a new location.
The resulting accidents that happened on some occasions were not intended for regular Transporter functions and were a result of an outside factor interfering.
When the creator on-screen stated that the transporter does not create clones, then the guy obviously knows what he's talking about because there is a possibility he would cringe at the thought of copies going around and wouldn't want others to have any qualms about using the technology in question.

In the case of Tuvix ... let's recap on what happened there:
From on-screen evidence, regular transporter functions were interfered with because of the flower and resulted in 'merging' of anything else that went through the transporter at the same time with the flower.
Tuvix was a combination of the plant, Tuvok and Neelix ... the genetic material was all there.
Both men were essentially merged into one and Tuvix himself stated they both were a part of him ... but at the same time, he was a new individual as well.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Given that Q could poof Tasha Yar or anyone else back into existence anytime he wished to, and given your insistence that Neelix and Tuvok weren't dead, at what point _would_ they be dead?

Where's the line between "brought back from the dead" and "never dead to begin with"?

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Given that Q could poof Tasha Yar or anyone else back into existence anytime he wished to, and given your insistence that Neelix and Tuvok weren't dead, at what point _would_ they be dead?

Where's the line between "brought back from the dead" and "never dead to begin with"?

They would be dead at the point that they couldn't be brought back in their original state, and not before. It's pretty obvious that because they came back, they were not "dead" again the only thing that passed was Tuvix' combined personality.

There is no line between "brought back from the dead" and "never dead to begin with" in this case. Tuvok and Neelix were not dead to begin with, like Siamese twins they had to be separated to have any quality of life, the part that was Tuvix was absorbed back into their individual personalities where he belonged.

While it's a sure bet that Q could do just about anything he pleased. Just because he could a thing doesn't mean he would, and there is the fact that nothing he could do has anything to do with this debate anyway.

Brit

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It is *not* a "contrived" argument. And really have to ask... is it necessary to be so patronizing?

It is a contrived argument and I told you why I saw it as such. Just because you choose not to accept that doesn’t mean that I missed your point at all, I’m saying your point is contrived. In fact the whole episode was a contrived episode, and I am not being patronizing, but rather doing the best I can to remain civil, in the face of someone that is trying to bait me. You think you can force me into some big confession and then you can say “Aha, Brit doesn’t value life.” Well that’s not true, what is true is that I value Neelix and Tuvok in their original state, over Tuvix’s desire to delete their lives.

First, you cannot read minds, and when you start putting motives and words in a debate opponent's mouth, you are stepping across the line into incivility. I am not baiting you. And I have no such intention. I'm sure you value life as much as the next person.

Still waiting to see if a child should be forced to give up half his liver to save a parent.

But are you not forcing the parent to give up half of their liver without consent either?

You misunderstood my point.

The parent is dying of cirrhosis or liver cancer, and needs a transplant. There is a method of transplanting from a live donor called a split-liver graft. Half a liver is given to the person whose liver is failing. It's far more dangerous surgery than donating, for example, a kidney.

Should a child be *forced* to save a parent who is dying, when the operation to save the parent could cause the child's death?

In medicine, we don't force anyone to undergo a procedure without their consent.

As the Doctor noted when he refused to perform the procedure. Were the case as cut-and-dried as you claim, the Doctor would not have had a problem doing the procedure himself.

And the key word is forced, but it is Tuvix, that is trying to force his desires over a whole lot of other people. Yes force is a very good word. Tuvix is trying to force the deaths of two innocent people. Apparently you do not remember them.

Actually, Brit, I do. But perhaps, because I'm a widow, I understand better than many that death is the only thing we are guaranteed when we're born. It is a part of everyone's life.

I can quite firmly say that I would never have demanded someone give up his life to save my sweetie. My sweetie wouldn't either--which is why he refused to consider his brother as a donor.

And this certainly doesn't mean I've "forgotten" him. It simply means I'm a realist.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvok and Neelix were not dead to begin with, like Siamese twins they had to be separated to have any quality of life,

First, the term is "conjoined twins."

Second, many conjoined twins have an excellent quality of life. It may not be something you'd desire, but to them it is absolutely normal.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Actually, Brit, I do. But perhaps, because I'm a widow, I understand better than many that death is the only thing we are guaranteed when we're born. It is a part of everyone's life.

I can quite firmly say that I would never have demanded someone give up his life to save my sweetie. My sweetie wouldn't either--which is why he refused to consider his brother as a donor.

And this certainly doesn't mean I've "forgotten" him. It simply means I'm a realist.

I am very pleased to see both you and your husband were much better people than Tuvix, who expected two people to give up their lives for him.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Or he didn't feel he should be killed just to bring two people back to life.

Really, it's pretty cold-blooded to hold it against someone for not wanting to end their own existence.

And it's not as though we were given any amount of time to see Tuvix consider the decision, if memory serves.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Actually, Brit, I do. But perhaps, because I'm a widow, I understand better than many that death is the only thing we are guaranteed when we're born. It is a part of everyone's life.

I can quite firmly say that I would never have demanded someone give up his life to save my sweetie. My sweetie wouldn't either--which is why he refused to consider his brother as a donor.

And this certainly doesn't mean I've "forgotten" him. It simply means I'm a realist.

I am very pleased to see both you and your husband were much better people than Tuvix, who expected two people to give up their lives for him.

Brit

Funny, under your reckoning someone should be required to risk his life to save another--except when it comes to real life examples.

So, if we'd had a child, would we have been justified to risk that child's life to give sweetie a kidney?

Tuvix was forced to give up his life to save his parents. This is something that is immoral under medical ethics today, and is apparently still considered immoral in the 24th century, because THE DOCTOR REFUSED TO DO THE SURGERY.

There is a reason for that. It's called the Hippocratic oath.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Teya, the whole point is that Tuvok and Neelix cannot give consent. They didn't give Tuvix permission to take over their lives or bodies. Your arguments actually work better for Tuvok and Neelix, than they do Tuvix. Tuvok and Neelix were not consulted, in the case when someone is incapacitated the next of kin would be consulted, and in that case, in all likelihood the next of kin on record would be Kes and by default Janeway. They were in agreement as to the procedure, they chose Tuvok and Neelix, and they were right.

Tuvix might think of Neelix and Tuvok as parents but I don't think either of them thought of him as an offspring. You didn't see either of them offering to get another flower specimen and go back into the transporter did you?

The captain weighed all evidence and chose, it showed that she was wise and a very good captain. I applaud her.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Regarding your earlier remark that they're not dead as long as they can be brought back in their original state...exactly how long should they be permitted to try to bring people back in their original state before they are presumed dead? A day? A week? Twenty years?

How long would Tuvix have had to live before it would be assumed that Tuvok and Neelix were actually dead and not just waiting to be brought back?

Seems kind of arbitrary to me, but at least Tuvix would have known that he hadn't secured the right to exist until x amount of time had passed.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Teya, the whole point is that Tuvok and Neelix cannot give consent. They didn't give Tuvix permission to take over their lives or bodies.

No one gives permission to be killed in an accident.

Tuvix didn't "take over" their lives or bodies. He was the result of symbiotic reproduction brought about by the convergence of transporter technology and the orchid.

Your arguments actually work better for Tuvok and Neelix, than they do Tuvix.

No they do not.

Tuvok and Neelix were not consulted, in the case when someone is ncapacitated the next of kin would be consulted, and in that case, in all likelihood the next of kin on record would be Kes and by default Janeway.

I was my sweetie's next of kin. This did not give me the right to demand someone die to save him.

They were in agreement as to the procedure, they chose Tuvok and Neelix, and they were right.

They chose to end a life to bring two people back from the dead.

That is *not* morally right.

The captain weighed all evidence and chose, it showed that she was wise and a very good captain. I applaud her.

If Janeway was right then the Doctor was wrong.

Yet what Janeway did is a violation of medical ethics.

So how can it be right?

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It is right because as stated here again and again, and backed up by canon statements, Tuvok and Neelix were not dead in the first place. They were not dead period. If they were "dead" as you say then Tuvix couldn't be alive either. Tuvix if nothing else was a parasite.

I find the idea of allowing Tuvix to go on in his combined state when the procedure was available to return Tuvok and Neelix to their original state disgusting and completely morally wrong. The doctor in disregarding Tuvok and Neelix was in violation of medical ethics also because he was certainly harming them.

Janeway was not in violation of anything, she made a decision. You may not have liked it but it was her decision and as Captain her responsibility. She was right too.

Brit

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Interesting question about how long someone has to be "dead" before we stop trying to bring them back. There was a definite deadline before Seven's nanoprobes could bring Neelix back in "Mortal Coil" (eighteen hours wasn't too long in that case). In "Jetrel," the Haarkonian scientist was trying to bring back people that had been killed more than fifteen years earlier, and everyone on the ship went along with it.

I admire Janeway for making a decision here. I realize that she was basically "damned if you do, damned if you don't," but most people would just let the situation ride, not realizing that failing to make a decision about it is the same as making one. The episode was set up so that there was no right decision, so I can't really blame Janeway for making the one she felt was the closest to being ethical.

 

[skep155]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Transporters kill you, i'd have to have a gun put to my head to step in one. But for the sake of the story im willing to suspend disbelief and say that transporters in Star Trek don't kill you, the episodes seem to suggest that you don't become unconscious during transport.

I tend to subscribe to the idea that if every atom in your brain is ripped apart then your as dead as someone who puts a grenade in his mouth and pulls the pin. Even if they could put all your atoms back together again in the exact same configuration i just think it would essentially be an identicle copy of you ressurected from the grave.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvix was forced to give up his life to save his parents. This is something that is immoral under medical ethics today, and is apparently still considered immoral in the 24th century, because THE DOCTOR REFUSED TO DO THE SURGERY.

The Doctor, although considered an individual, still has to abide by his programming, this programming doesn't take into consideration the fact that Tuvix is not "Alive". He was, as stated before, a combination of two living beings.

If the situation was slightly different, in a hypothetical example, The Viidians had captured Tuvok and Neelix and, in their research into finding a cure for The Phage, had caused the merging of Tuvok and Neelix into Tuvix, would it be considered wrong to seperate them again by using Viidian technology? Or would it be absolutely acceptable to leave them as they are?

Both accidents cause the merging of two individuals against their will and create a hybrid that is not meant to exist.

It was never determined if the accident was caused by some unidentified problem with the Transporter (Every diagnostic carried out concluded that all Transporter Systems were functioning properly at the time of their transportation) or if it was due to the natural effects of the Orchid itself (this would be the most likely cause).

Transporters kill you

I would be absolutely interested to see your scientific evidence that backs up this claim.

 

[KimMH]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I don't have a scientific molecule in my body but I do tend to agree with the idea that having your body disassembled before reassembly constitutes death. Our bodies contain our spirits which require the anchor of our bodies to remain in this plane of existence - otherwise they pass into whatever plane of existence you consider your next step. The idea that science will find a way to conquer that is lovely but my willing suspension of disbelief usually balks and refuses to cross that bridge.

In TrekVerse Tuvok and Neelix may have been trapped inside Tuvix much like TrekLit asserts Borg drones are still the original people trapped inside a zombiefied body which no longer obeys them but the collective and the spirits remain trapped isnide bodies no longer solely thier own. In my little universe transporters equal death.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvix was forced to give up his life to save his parents. This is something that is immoral under medical ethics today, and is apparently still considered immoral in the 24th century, because THE DOCTOR REFUSED TO DO THE SURGERY.

The Doctor, although considered an individual, still has to abide by his programming, this programming doesn't take into consideration the fact that Tuvix is not "Alive". He was, as stated before, a combination of two living beings.

Tuvix is absolutely alive and sentient by any measure the Federation uses.

Kes made the argument that the Doctor was sentient when she said he was self-aware and had the capacity to learn. Tuvix also had those qualities.

Your argument also doesn't take into account that according to the medical ethics of the 21st century, the Doctor was acting according to the standards of his profession.

Are you telling me that in the 24th century the individual doesn't have the right to decline treatment?

That would be going backward--to a time when minorities (and Tuvix is a minority of one) were at the mercy of the medical establishment. That would be going backward--to the days of Tuskeegee and eugenics.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It is right because as stated here again and again, and backed up by canon statements, Tuvok and Neelix were not dead in the first place. They were not dead period. If they were "dead" as you say then Tuvix couldn't be alive either. Tuvix if nothing else was a parasite.

Tuvix was a sentient individual under the standards of Federation law. See above post.

I find the idea of allowing Tuvix to go on in his combined state when the procedure was available to return Tuvok and Neelix to their original state disgusting and completely morally wrong. The doctor in disregarding Tuvok and Neelix was in violation of medical ethics also because he was certainly harming them.

Your lack of medical background shows in this statement.

Janeway was not in violation of anything, she made a decision. You may not have liked it but it was her decision and as Captain her responsibility. She was right too.

She did make a decision and it could be argued that she had the right to do so as Captain.

That does not make the decision "right."

That is *your* opinion and just because *you* state it to be the one true and only way, doesn't mean that it is.

IMO, you and Janeway are wrong.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvix is absolutely alive and sentient by any measure the Federation uses.

Kes made the argument that the Doctor was sentient when she said he was self-aware and had the capacity to learn. Tuvix also had those qualities.

Your argument also doesn't take into account that according to the medical ethics of the 21st century, the Doctor was acting according to the standards of his profession.

Are you telling me that in the 24th century the individual doesn't have the right to decline treatment?

That would be going backward--to a time when minorities (and Tuvix is a minority of one) were at the mercy of the medical establishment. That would be going backward--to the days of Tuskeegee and eugenics.

I think you misunderstood what I said, I agree that The Doctor refused to perform the procedure due to his medical oath, but whether Tuvix was an individual with individual rights is something that should be scrutinized given the unusual circumstances. The Doctor's subroutines were unable to do this in an effective way that considered the fate of Tuvok and Neelix.

Tuvok and Neelix are also individuals, individuals who were forced into this position and muted by an accident. In considering the fate of Tuvix, we must also bring both Tuvok and Neelix's rights into consideration.

In my opinion, Tuvix was nothing more than a union of two personalities and my decision to seperate them was based upon the belief that Tuvok and Neelix would want to be seperated.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

That is *your* opinion and just because *you* state it to be the one true and only way, doesn't mean that it is.

IMO, you and Janeway are wrong.

Right back at you Teya, and Janeway was right. That in a nutshell is the sum total of this entire argument and has been since the episode aired.

Teya, doesn't like the character of Kathryn Janeway, she is inclined to see the character in the worst light. I like the character very much and that means my point of view is different. We are never going to agree.

What I am not inclined to do is see my favorite character called immoral, or unethical.

Trek canon says, transporters do not kill anyone. Now everyone is entitled to disbelieve that concept, but the canon and story are firm, they do not kill. Therefore Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, they were sentient beings and to bring them back was the right thing to do. Tuvix will have to be satisfied with living inside of them as he should be rather than them living inside of him which was very wrong.

Brit