Harlan Ellison COTEF Lawsuit Gains Momentum

[trevanian]

DS9 is about the closest we'll ever get to Star Fleet Blues but that's not terribly close at all, sadly. Still my favorite of the spin-offs, though.

It is because it exists in parallel with TNG that it has that weight. A Section 31 series in Kirk's time would be close to meaningless, we've already seen that kind of spy op with ENTERPRISE INCIDENT, and nobody lost any sleep over it. But showing that and political paranoia in century 24 really carries some OOMPH because they steer clear of it so much, with only a couple welcome exceptions.

So comparing DS9 unfavorably to something like HILL ST is meaningless, because Hill St didn't exist in an era of only-Waltons-and-sitcoms. HILLST did stuff better and pioneered, but DS9 expanded that TNG universe to something I could find credible, which is an enormous accomplishment given my distaste for most things TNG.

Seeing Robert Butler's HILL ST pilot is one of the most exciting live-wire things I can remember, but I think for a whole first season by comparison, NYPD BLUE buried it. Amazing to say now that he has become feeble on that CSI thing, but Caruso was absolutely in the groove back in the early 90s, with NYPD and before it, that Robert DeNiro/Bill Murray feature, which seems practically like Caruso's audition piece for NYPD.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

DS9 was thus good--better than TNG, for a lot of us, and far better than ENT or VOY. So it's not such a case of special pleading at all.

No Star Trek--not even TOS--can stand up to a comparison to the best mainstream shows of the last 15 or 20 years; Christ, The Wire and The Sopranos bury damn near everything, imao. (This is why I used to snigger when critics called BSG the best show on television.) TNG's nearest peer was LA Law and that has aged even worse than TNG has.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

No Star Trek--not even TOS--can stand up to a comparison to the best mainstream shows of the last 15 or 20 years...

That much is true.

The exuberance and eccentricities of Star Trek are a lot of what's appealing to me about it; DS9 OTOH took Trek's pretentiousness to a whole new level and it bored me pretty quickly. "Dark and gritty" Star Trek is as "inspired" as a calf's liver-flavored milkshake, and stuff like Section 31 is no more than schoolboy cynicism pratting about as sophistication.

The worst thing that could happen to Trek is for it to be treated as solemnly and with the kind of importance that it was by lots of folks in the 1990s - one more reason I enjoy what Abrams is doing with it so much.

 

[trevanian]

DS9 was thus good--better than TNG, for a lot of us, and far better than ENT or VOY. So it's not such a case of special pleading at all.

No Star Trek--not even TOS--can stand up to a comparison to the best mainstream shows of the last 15 or 20 years; Christ, The Wire and The Sopranos bury damn near everything, imao. (This is why I used to snigger when critics called BSG the best show on television.) TNG's nearest peer was LA Law and that has aged even worse than TNG has.

I'd probably go with MAD MEN and DEADWOOD and CARNIVALE as well as SOPRANOS, but yeah, those shows are superb.

Personally, I find the section31 and PARADISE LOST stuff on DS9 to be indicative of reality setting in on ModernTrek (a good thing) ... which is kind of justified years later by 9/11 (no matter who you think is responsible for the latter.)

 

[Brutal Strudel]

No Star Trek--not even TOS--can stand up to a comparison to the best mainstream shows of the last 15 or 20 years...

That much is true.

The exuberance and eccentricities of Star Trek are a lot of what's appealing to me about it; DS9 OTOH took Trek's pretentiousness to a whole new level and it bored me pretty quickly. "Dark and gritty" Star Trek is as "inspired" as a calf's liver-flavored milkshake, and stuff like Section 31 is no more than schoolboy cynicism pratting about as sophistication.

The worst thing that could happen to Trek is for it to be treated as solemnly and with the kind of importance that it was by lots of folks in the 1990s - one more reason I enjoy what Abrams is doing with it so much.

Ah, I get it now--I often wondered why it was you disliked DS9 so much. Hmmm. I see where you're coming from--I don't agree, but I see.

"Calf liver milkshake," that's good, I gotta remember that one...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Ah, I get it now--I often wondered why it was you disliked DS9 so much. Hmmm. I see where you're coming from--I don't agree, but I see.

Thanks. I admit that my biases are silly ones and that they favor a lot of silliness where Trek is concerned - for instance, I wouldn't have been either surprised or terribly disappointed if the Abrams movie had junked the TOS look for more plausibly functional or military-looking uniforms because that's the way it goes...but I was thrilled to see them go for the 1960s Crayola outfits. Definitely a little thing...

 

[Anwar]

I'd probably go with MAD MEN and DEADWOOD and CARNIVALE as well as SOPRANOS, but yeah, those shows are superb.

What, you don't like KINGS?

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I admit that my biases are silly ones and that they favor a lot of silliness where Trek is concerned - for instance, I wouldn't have been either surprised or terribly disappointed if the Abrams movie had junked the TOS look for more plausibly functional or military-looking uniforms because that's the way it goes...but I was thrilled to see them go for the 1960s Crayola outfits. Definitely a little thing...

I like silly, too--I'm the one who always says that Trek is one part Shakespeare and two parts Buster Crabbe.

Speaking of silly, one of the things I liked about DS9's Sloane was that he reminded me of MASH's Colonel Flagg, though I doubt the creators wanted him to.

 

[plynch]

I never got the praise for the sophistication of DS9, except by assuming that fans were choosing to compare it to no network drama or programming besides other Star Trek. So much other stuff at the time, like NYPD Blue (early seasons) was so gripping and so gritty and so well-done...

You put that very well. I remember liking DS9 in original run; then watched it in order via netflix recently. It is ambitious for Star Trek. But still such cliched writing and comic-bookish dialog. Likewise I was surprised at the love the Destiny fiction trilogy is getting. I guess if you hadn't read much quality fiction? It's good for Star Trek novels, perhaps (and I did read the trilogy), but not what most would call great (or good) prose.

On another note -- I have not read all 41 pages of previous posts, so forgive if this has come up before -- is the original COTEOF script available online anywhere? I'd like to see how the filmed version pales in comparison.

Be well.

 

[Jan]

On another note -- I have not read all 41 pages of previous posts, so forgive if this has come up before -- is the original COTEOF script available online anywhere? I'd like to see how the filmed version pales in comparison.

If it is, it's not sanctioned by Mr. Ellison.

Jan

 

[T'Bonz]

DS9 had a lot of campy fun and silliness. That was part of its charm for me. The goofy, dorky Rom. The scheming Quark. The deliciously sly Garak.

It wasn't always serious. Sometimes it was downright goofy.

I could forgive the writers for Sloan and Section 31 as Sloan looked so hot in black leather.

 

[M'Sharak]

Speaking of silly, one of the things I liked about DS9's Sloane was that he reminded me of MASH's Colonel Flagg, though I doubt the creators wanted him to.

I don't find anything which says it was intentional, but you know, I'm not sure I'd rule it out, either.

 

[Mysterion]

For my money, of all the spin-offs and sequels and stuff, Deep Space Nine came the closest to recreating the spirit of TOS.

Your milage may vary.

 

[Maurice]

A caveat for anyone wanting to read unproduced screenplays: It may seem obvious, but screenwriting is not like novel writing. It's deliberately spare and leaves a lot of latitude to the director and actors and other talent. Scripts are a blueprint for a cast and crew to build something from, and it's the performances and the way it's produced that brings out any brilliance that may be in the script, which, frankly, isn't always obvious. I've worked on some film projects where the crew doesn't even "get" the script until they hear the actors actually play the lines, at which point they go "ahhhhh, I get it!"

My point in saying this is that in reading any script to a film you haven't seen, you may find it a disappointing experience, just because the script is a plan, and not really designed for "reading" per se.

The script for Star Wars, for example, reads terribly, and even many people making that film thought it was rubbish because they couldn't visualize how it would all come together.

 

[trevanian]

I'd probably go with MAD MEN and DEADWOOD and CARNIVALE as well as SOPRANOS, but yeah, those shows are superb.

What, you don't like KINGS?

I actually drew a blank when I read that ... now I remember it is the Ian McShane show. I was interested when I read about it pre-airing, but I've never seen it. I don't think there are any shows I watch on the four networks outside of FAMILY GUY. Not sure, but I think the last time I watched CBS was when PICKET FENCES ran its finale.

 

[Anwar]

Too bad, it's a great show (a modernized take on the Old Testament? Been a while since we've seen a producer ballsy enough for that!).

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The goofy, dorky Rom. The scheming Quark.

The Ferengi-centric episodes of DS9 were the ones I really enjoyed (exception of "Profit And Lace" or whatever the Quark-in-drag ep was called). Also, "Far Beyond The Stars." But the series didn't remind me of TOS in any important way - oh, except for "Trials And Tribbleations" which I liked a lot.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

For my money, of all the spin-offs and sequels and stuff, Deep Space Nine came the closest to recreating the spirit of TOS.

Your milage may vary.

My mileage matches yours.

A caveat for anyone wanting to read unproduced screenplays: It may seem obvious, but screenwriting is not like novel writing. It's deliberately spare and leaves a lot of latitude to the director and actors and other talent. Scripts are a blueprint for a cast and crew to build something from, and it's the performances and the way it's produced that brings out any brilliance that may be in the script, which, frankly, isn't always obvious. I've worked on some film projects where the crew doesn't even "get" the script until they hear the actors actually play the lines, at which point they go "ahhhhh, I get it!"

My point in saying this is that in reading any script to a film you haven't seen, you may find it a disappointing experience, just because the script is a plan, and not really designed for "reading" per se.

The script for Star Wars, for example, reads terribly, and even many people making that film thought it was rubbish because they couldn't visualize how it would all come together.

HE's script was rather florid, iirc--moreso than most of his stories. Ellison is very clear about that: he puts stuff in his scripts usually left to other creative types on the production and insists they stick as closely to it as possible.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Ellison is very clear about that: he puts stuff in his scripts usually left to other creative types on the production and insists they stick as closely to it as possible.

HE may always insist...but like any other writer he'll generally be ignored.

Frederick Pohl used to tell this anecdote, with considerable affection, about how after he purchased one of Ellison's short stories for Galaxy Harlan showed up at the office with a copy of Scientific American - it had these color photographs of something like fractal patterns (I'm recounting this from thirty-year-old memory, so I'm not sure that's what they were) - and wanting Pohl to use them as illustrations between sections of the story.

(Galaxy, for the very young who may not know, was a digest-sized black-and-white pulp paper magazine that sold on newsstands for less than one dollar at that time)

HE would not be dissuaded, no matter how reasonably Pohl repeated "Harlan, we don't have color in Galaxy."

"Sure, yeah," Ellison would say, "you never have before, but..."

 

[Maurice]

HE's script was rather florid, iirc--moreso than most of his stories. Ellison is very clear about that: he puts stuff in his scripts usually left to other creative types on the production and insists they stick as closely to it as possible.

Yes, but at the same time many of his suggestions are just that: suggestions. His description of the time vortex is more an impression than anything, and he even says, "Construct it as you choose".