Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really work

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

So killing a sentient being is justified if the benefits to be reaped from the being's death outweigh the associated costs, provided an argument can be made that the being wasn't "supposed to" exist in the first place?

Good thing my parents meant to have me.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

So killing a sentient being is justified if the benefits to be reaped from the being's death outweigh the associated costs, provided an argument can be made that the being wasn't "supposed to" exist in the first place?

In the context of Trek, yes it does. The arguments here as I see them also smack of the "new" or young being having more value than the older mature beings. Value has to be the deciding factor whether you like it or not. Tuvok and Neelix have more value to more people than Tuvix does.

And as far as I can see your argument for the deaths of two other beings would be justified for the one. Nope I can't buy that. In essence someone has to die, I would think that the weight of value falls on the original proven people not the untried person. Tuvix is no innocent, and you realize that he couldn't stay on Voyager anyway. No one would want to live with the person that is responsible for the deaths of people that you have relationships with.

Tuvix with his demand to stay as he was, is just as guilty of murder as you want to say Janeway is.

There was another Trek character whose existence depended on another dying, Shinzon.


Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I still think it would have served Janeway right if the procedure had failed and she'd lost all three of them.

Pretty awful, I think, to blame Tuvix for Tuvok and Neelix not being alive. Tuvok was a Starfleet officer who knew there were risks, and Neelix had voluntarily joined the crew knowing there would be risks involved. Tuvix didn't cause the accident, and to blame him for not being willing to kill himself as part of a procedure that may not have even worked seems pretty heartless to me.

Was it selfish of Data not to turn himself over to Maddox?

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I still think it would have served Janeway right if the procedure had failed and she'd lost all three of them.

Pretty awful, I think, to blame Tuvix for Tuvok and Neelix not being alive. Tuvok was a Starfleet officer who knew there were risks, and Neelix had voluntarily joined the crew knowing there would be risks involved. Tuvix didn't cause the accident, and to blame him for not being willing to kill himself as part of a procedure that may not have even worked seems pretty heartless to me.

It's just as heartless on your part to demand the sacrifice of Tuvok and Neelix for Tuvix. It's pretty heartless of Tuvix to use Neelix's memories of Kes to try to get her to plead his case too. What you cannot get around is value, and like it or not Neelix and Tuvok had a lot more value to their families, friends and Voyager than Tuvix did or ever could.

Tuvix's right to live couldn't be judged just because he was the last occupant of a body. His body and his life belonged to someone else.

Janeway showed courage and moral fiber in her choice. She deserved to have her friend and colleague back.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

And Data should have turned himself over to Maddox for the good of the Federation and to save countless lives by allowing easily-replaced androids to serve in their stead during the Dominion War. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

And Data should have turned himself over to Maddox for the good of the Federation and to save countless lives by allowing easily-replaced androids to serve in their stead during the Dominion War. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Data didn’t gain his life at the expense of two other beings. No one else had occupied his body but him. Your example isn’t the same thing at all.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

One could argue that Data kept his life at the expense of thousands if not millions of other lives. How many lives could have been saved if, during the Dominion War, Federation ships had been crewed by androids?

We're talking about sacrificing one being so that others can live. How is that not the same thing?

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

One could argue that Data kept his life at the expense of thousands if not millions of other lives. How many lives could have been saved if, during the Dominion War, Federation ships had been crewed by androids?

We're talking about sacrificing one being so that others can live. How is that not the same thing?

We are talking about one Being that was born out of the death of two others, no specilation, no abstract what if. Just the fact that two people that had value would have been sacrificed for him alone.

We don't "know" that Data's life could have saved millions, we do however know that Tuvix's life was at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok. One might argue that Data saved the entire Federation when he didn't give up his life because he was there in "First Contact". You are arguing one life for a intangable benifit, against one life for a known benefit. At the time of "Measure of a Man" NG Season 2, the Federation didn't know of the Dominion or the Borg. You are again trying to force the argument away from the true point, Tuvok and Neelix had more value than Tuvix.

Your examples don't hold water.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Okie-doke.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Homosexuality is one of nature's mechanisms to prevent over-population.

Ummm... what?

It has been proven by Starfleet Scientists that on worlds that face mass overpopulation, their natural environment uses Evolution to multiply the numbers of homosexual individuals to bring balance to the increasing population.

One fact that ALL Starfleet Officers are made aware of, much like the early Federations policy on equality within all alien races.

I am also glad to see that Brit has sensible ideas, these would allow her to serve well as a Starfleet Officer.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I am also glad to see that Brit has sensible ideas, these would allow him to serve well as a Starfleet Officer.

Thanks for the recognition, but I need to let you know that Brit is female LOL. I took my nick from one of the best books I read last year "Moonstruck" by Susan Grant - Coalition Starship Admiral Brit (Stoneheart) Bandar. She's female too.

Brit

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

In that case Brit, you have my sincerest apologies and confidence in the fact that I have just edited my previous communication to reflect this new information.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

So killing a sentient being is justified if the benefits to be reaped from the being's death outweigh the associated costs, provided an argument can be made that the being wasn't "supposed to" exist in the first place?

In the context of Trek, yes it does. The arguments here as I see them also smack of the "new" or young being having more value than the older mature beings. Value has to be the deciding factor whether you like it or not. Tuvok and Neelix have more value to more people than Tuvix does.

Tuvix is a sentient being who was created by a unique form of reproduction. This was stated in the episode.

It's not that the "new" or the "young" have more value--it's that he is alive *now*. Tuvok and Neelix are not.

Would you *force* someone to undergo a procedure that could kill him to save a parent?

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

So killing a sentient being is justified if the benefits to be reaped from the being's death outweigh the associated costs, provided an argument can be made that the being wasn't "supposed to" exist in the first place?

In the context of Trek, yes it does. The arguments here as I see them also smack of the "new" or young being having more value than the older mature beings. Value has to be the deciding factor whether you like it or not. Tuvok and Neelix have more value to more people than Tuvix does.

Tuvix is a sentient being who was created by a unique form of reproduction. This was stated in the episode.

It's not that the "new" or the "young" have more value--it's that he is alive *now*. Tuvok and Neelix are not.

Would you *force* someone to undergo a procedure that could kill him to save a parent?

Teya, this is also a contrived argument. It is used to justify a so called “right to life” stance. The closest analogy to the “parent versus child' argument is forcing a violated female to carry and give birth to something that will kill her. It’s a stance that says the “child” has more value than the adult parent even thought that adult parent has other children and other dependents that will suffer at their death.

If Tuvok and Neelix gave birth to Tuvix then they were both raped and put to death in the process. They did not ask for a common child, said child was an accident and again Tuvok and Neelix have more value than Tuvix.

It doesn’t matter that Tuvix was sentient, or even that his “birth” was unique, his existence killed two other valuable people. DonIago tried to use “Measure of a Man” to back up his argument but in this case the example should have been TOS’s “Return to Tomorrow.” Henoch was a sentient being that tried to appropriate Spock’s body, and he was killed so that Spock could return to his own body. According to your argument Henoch should have been allowed to remain in Spock’s body because he was alive now, never mind that Spock’s potential for life was held in that glowing globe. Tuvix even though his existence was accidental was a stealing Tuvok’s and Neelix’s lives.

I am reasonably sure that in the enlightened 24th century, people can choose to be parents or choose not to. Tuvok and Neelix didn’t choose to be Tuvix’s parents and because of that parenthood shouldn't be forced on them, their existence took precedence over his.

It was Tuvix that said he thought of them as parents, that they lived in his memory. Well if that was true then Tuvix could just as easily be alive in theirs. The question is not who is alive now, but who has potential life tomorrow, who had the greater value and that people had the right to determine what would be done to their own lives and bodies.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

"DonIago tried to use “Measure of a Man” to back up his argument"

With all due respect, that you personally find my argument invalid doesn't make it so, and I'd thank you to be a bit less dismissive. I may not agree with your views, but I respect that there's no reason they may not be as valid as my own. I would appreciate being shown the same courtesy.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

"DonIago tried to use “Measure of a Man” to back up his argument"

With all due respect, that you personally find my argument invalid doesn't make it so, and I'd thank you to be a bit less dismissive. I may not agree with your views, but I respect that there's no reason they may not be as valid as my own. I would appreciate being shown the same courtesy.

I only said you used the argument in the quote you cited, not that the argument was invalid, however I do believe that it is invalid and I told you why I thought it was in previous posts. Your statement is not about me showing you no courtesy, but you trying again to direct the argument away from the main point and focus it on personalities not on points of view.

The object of the discussion was whether or not Janeway should have disregarded Tuvix's wishes and restored Tuvok and Neelix not, whether or not Brit finds your argument valid or invalid. I wouldn't be arguing it if I though your point was valid. I am perfectly aware that you do not find my point valid, you are stating the obvious.

Which actually brings us full circle, the argument for and against the existence of Tuvix is a moral one, and very akin to the arguments for and against Pro Abortion Laws, where some groups feel justified in murdering Doctors and Clinic personal because their own personal convictions are not followed. People that don't like Janeway use the Tuvix situation as one of the examples of why they don't like her. While others like myself respect that she had the courage to make that decision, and to see why in our eyes, it was the best decision she could have made in a harrowing situation.

This is an argument that is never going to end because the views held are so personal, everyone here is arguing emotion not situation and it's time that everyone realizes that. “Tuvix” illustrates the moral dilemma, not everyone is going to agree to the outcome no matter what choice is made, there is always going to be strong disagreements whenever this subject is brought up, it’s the nature of the subject.

No one should take it personally when others don't agree with you or find your arguments valid.

Brit

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Ultimately the existance of Tuvix and non-existance of Tuvok and Neelix brought much emotional conflict to the rest of the crew. This emotional conflict would seriously affect crew performance and hence be detrimental to the functioning and survival capabilities of Voyager.

It would also be very likely that those senior officers who were closest to Tuvok and Neelix would come to resent Tuvix which could have led to all manners of problems.

The biggest negative impact on Tuvok and Neelix personally and on the crew as a whole would have been to let Tuvix go on living thats why it was decided to seperate them back into their individual states.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I think that the discussion has to based on agreeing to a certain set of facts. If we disagree on the facts then of course we will come to different conclusions. Of course these facts are going to be in dispute as there is no clear answer. But these are the set of facts that I consider to be "facts".

1. Tuvok and Neelix were killed by the transporter.
2. After Tuvok and Neelix were already dead, the transporter combined the "remains" of Tuvok and Neelix to create a brand new being Tuvix. He is equivalent to their child although also inheriting memories as well.
3. Tuvix was murdered against his will and his remains were used to create duplicates of Tuvok and Neelix. These are NOT revivals of Tuvok and Neelix. These are totally brand new duplicate individuals. THe original Tuvok and Neelix remain dead.

IF we assume these facts to be true, then the real world equivalent would be something like murdering a child against his will and using his remains to create clones or duplicate of his parents because the parents were important members of society.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

^Works for me.

 

[Brit]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I think that the discussion has to based on agreeing to a certain set of facts. If we disagree on the facts then of course we will come to different conclusions. Of course these facts are going to be in dispute as there is no clear answer. But these are the set of facts that I consider to be "facts".

1. Tuvok and Neelix were killed by the transporter.
2. After Tuvok and Neelix were already dead, the transporter combined the "remains" of Tuvok and Neelix to create a brand new being Tuvix. He is equivalent to their child although also inheriting memories as well.
3. Tuvix was murdered against his will and his remains were used to create duplicates of Tuvok and Neelix. These are NOT revivals of Tuvok and Neelix. These are totally brand new duplicate individuals. THe original Tuvok and Neelix remain dead.

IF we assume these facts to be true, then the real world equivalent would be something like murdering a child against his will and using his remains to create clones or duplicate of his parents because the parents were important members of society.

That may well work for you but it doesn't work for me, because I do not see any truth to your so called "facts", because Neelix and Tuvok were not killed by the Transporter they were altered and the solution was to put them back in their original state.

Brit