number6
Vice Admiral
-Staying to fight the cloud (Obsession)
-Searching for the Galileo (The Galileo Seven)
-Going back to the Asteroid Planet to save McCoy (For the World is Hollow..)
-Negotiating with the Ground Dwellers (The Cloud Minders)
weighting of the JJverse
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-Searching for the Galileo (The Galileo Seven)
-Going back to the Asteroid Planet to save McCoy (For the World is Hollow..)
-Negotiating with the Ground Dwellers (The Cloud Minders)
The Talos IV one isn't.
SPOCK, not Kirk, set the course. Nobody could stop it short of sabotaging the ship's engines. (And considering that the Talosians were involved, I doubt that even THAT would work.)
Kirk worked WITHIN the system... following orders, working within the chain-of-command (even if it his superior was only an illusion!) and within regulations.
Kirk showed, repeatedly, a low tolerance for BUREAUCRATS. Especially for ones responsible for misguided peace missions, or for nursemaiding a shipment of grain. But I can't recall a single time, in TOS, that he DEFIED AN ORDER.
Hell, even with Amok Time, he was still - marginally - within the letter of his orders. And by doing what he was doing, he was risking losing everything (including, as it turns out, his life). That was kind of the POINT of the story. If Kirk "regularly" defied military discipline, it sort of cheapens the personal sacrifices he was prepared to make in "Amok Time."
The next time we see Kirk "disobey orders" is a lot more severe, of course... stealing the Enterprise. And once again, it's done with full knowledge of the likely consequences, and done willingly with that knowledge... knowing that he was probably giving up his career, and potentially even his freedom, in exchange for the possibility of saving McCoy AND (potentially) Spock.
Kirk's "disobeying of orders" is even more overblown than his supposed "boinking a different green chick every episode." Neither one happened very often, and when it did, it was sort of a big deal.
-Staying to fight the cloud (Obsession)
Emergency situation, but the whole episode was revolving around his violation of orders due to the extreme circumstance. Not exactly 'drop of the hat', since McCoy was going to relieve him.
-Searching for the Galileo (The Galileo Seven)
Nope. He violated no orders there, though he was a smidge lackadasial about them.
-Going back to the Asteroid Planet to save McCoy (For the World is Hollow..)
Whose orders prevented him from doing that, again?
-Negotiating with the Ground Dwellers (The Cloud Minders)
I've only seen this episode once. I'll have to rewatch, but I didn't think he had ORDERS in that case, at least not from his actual authority.
Emergency situation, but the whole episode was revolving around his violation of orders due to the extreme circumstance. Not exactly 'drop of the hat', since McCoy was going to relieve him.
-Searching for the Galileo (The Galileo Seven)
Nope. He violated no orders there, though he was a smidge lackadasial about them.
-Going back to the Asteroid Planet to save McCoy (For the World is Hollow..)
Whose orders prevented him from doing that, again?
-Negotiating with the Ground Dwellers (The Cloud Minders)
I've only seen this episode once. I'll have to rewatch, but I didn't think he had ORDERS in that case, at least not from his actual authority.
First, quit baiting. It's unbecoming.
Second, I'm moving no goalposts (nor HAVE I, despite your assertions to the contrary). "At the drop of a hat" implies that Kirk breaks orders whenever he feels like it (as Chang accused him of), but there's absolutely no evidence that he's ever done that. In fact, the times he does break orders are particularly troubling and difficult situations where he's prepared to face the consequences, no matter what they are.
Don't recall him disobeying orders on that one... I'll have to go back and rewatch it.
But, that said... the point of the episode was "Obsession" after all. This wasn't "the Kirk we usually see." He was, in other words, acting out-of-character.
He wasn't dealing with chain-of-command, he was dealing with a bureaucrat, first off... and Kirk always chafed under those circumstances.
To use a contemporary parellel, it's like having a naval commanding officer react poorly to an order given to him by Barney Frank. Not "really" the same as reacting poorly to one given to him by the Secretary of the Navy. Even if Barney Frank has some form of "outside of the chain of command" authority in that particular situation.
Secondly, though... Kirk DID stay within the "letter of the law" in how he reacted. Yeah, he pushed it as far as he could, but he didn't cross the actual "line."
Haven't seen that one in years... but again, I'm not sure I recall the bit about him being ordered not to go back. Even if he was, that order really seems sort of nonsensical from a military standpoint (and hence would be an example of poor scriptwriting... which would carry through the rest of the script to one degree or another).
Supposing that Kirk was ordered not to fly back the few hours away in order to recover his trained Starfleet Officer CMO... well, that seems a bit odd. But I don't really care for this ep too much, so it's certainly possible that this is another flaw in what I see as a flawed ep anyway.
Oh, good lord... definitely an episode best left forgotten (the sole high point being Droxine's dress...). I'm sure that Kirk got an order from some civilian authority to stop doing whatever he was doing. But again... "chain of command" means something different than "civilian authority." Kirk's situation put him under BOTH on occasion... but as far as I can recall, he only really chafed under the CIVILIAN authority, not the military chain-of-command.
number6
Vice Admiral
Vance:
You need to stick to your parameters. You set the conditions (i.e When did Kirk disobey orders at the drop of a hat), then change the parameters when someone actually answers your questions. Modifying the parameters as the questions are being answered is moving the goalposts. And you do it often.
You also redefine "drop of a hat" as you go. That is intellectually dishonest is you're looking for a real debate.
You need to stick to your parameters. You set the conditions (i.e When did Kirk disobey orders at the drop of a hat), then change the parameters when someone actually answers your questions. Modifying the parameters as the questions are being answered is moving the goalposts. And you do it often.
You also redefine "drop of a hat" as you go. That is intellectually dishonest is you're looking for a real debate.
And now you're resorting to personal attacks again, instead of merely acknowledging the fact that that you are clearly again in the wrong on this. In no movie or episode do we see Kirk 'disobey orders at the drop of a hat', though we do see him 'disobey orders'.
The only moving of goalposts is being made by you in fallaciously equating the two statements for no more reason than to perpetuate a malicious and petty character attack.
We're done.
number6
Vice Admiral
This proves the point, actually, that Kirk was a commander who followed his own rules as his judgement dictates, regardless of the potential ramifications. This character trait carries well into Pine's Kirk.
Whether the chain of command concerns a local authority, or Starfleet, Kirk always went with his heart, regardless of the chain of command. Kirk clearly has a problem with authority and simply following orders.
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