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Matt Jeffries Intentions / Federation Vessel Hull Numbers

Other than the oddities, we really just get a few that are used consistantly...

NCC ("Construction Contract")
NX ("Experimental")
NAR ("Auxillary and Reserve")
NSP is used for some Vulcan ships ("Scientific Patrol").

We also see things like BDR ("Blue Brothers Starship"), and the like, but those are mostly in-jokes and best ignored.
 
Was just reading a John Ringo novel about Earth's first starship, built with tech from the fist aliens we contact. The aliens and the US gov come up with the politically-desireable "Alliance Star Ship" for its designator. At which point one of the main characters yells "ASS?!?!?!?!!" :lol:
 
Captain Robert April,

But in a way, spacecraft truthfully have more in common with aircraft than they do with nautical vessels. Truthfully though, in Star Trek they have bits of both...


Vance,

Other than the oddities, we really just get a few that are used consistantly...

NCC ("Construction Contract")
NX ("Experimental")
NAR ("Auxillary and Reserve")
NSP is used for some Vulcan ships ("Scientific Patrol").

We also see things like BDR ("Blue Brothers Starship"), and the like, but those are mostly in-jokes and best ignored.

Thank you


CuttingEdge100
 
Other than the oddities, we really just get a few that are used consistantly...

NCC ("Construction Contract")
NX ("Experimental")
NAR ("Auxillary and Reserve")
NSP is used for some Vulcan ships ("Scientific Patrol").

We also see things like BDR ("Blue Brothers Starship"), and the like, but those are mostly in-jokes and best ignored.

Isn't there NCV or something for Federation timeships?
 
FWIW, I checked out vessel designations on Wikipedia (so take it with a grain of salt, although this one seems to be pretty well documented with links to the US Navy's Naval Vessel Registry. I looked up American since the show was an American based show, but there are similar Hull Classification Symbol (hereinafter HCS) for other navies as well (British, etc.).

Interestingly enough, there was a time when ships could have one letter as a designation (B = battleship under old system) before requiring 2 letters for each ship (BB = battleship under new system). I mention that as a possibility as to why there is a "CC" in "NCC" for Starfleet vessels and all other Federation vessels have an N at the beginning. Just a theory and one to which I am not married (wife would kill me anyways :p).

Linkie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_classification_symbol#Aircraft_carrier_type

Just a little something to chew on and throw some additional gasoline on the fire. :shifty:

YMMV
 
Other than the oddities, we really just get a few that are used consistantly...

NCC ("Construction Contract")
NX ("Experimental")
NAR ("Auxillary and Reserve")
NSP is used for some Vulcan ships ("Scientific Patrol").

We also see things like BDR ("Blue Brothers Starship"), and the like, but those are mostly in-jokes and best ignored.

It seems to me that the CC could just as easily mean "command cruiser", or something completely arcane that doesn't match up with "CC" at all.
 
Well, as I said before, the ONLY explanation for NCC that was official and, in fact, even literally signed off on by Gene Roddenberry, was in fact "Naval Construction Contract". Even if it was declared 'non-canon' years later, it effectively WAS up through the first few movies. :S

Considering the NCC registrar is used on nearly every type of 'Starfleet' vessel, from Battleships down to Ruanbouts (and even, in some cases, shuttles), "Naval Construction Contract" is unfortunately one of the few ideas floating around that fits the bill, even if it's not ideal.
 
Well, as I said before, the ONLY explanation for NCC that was official and, in fact, even literally signed off on by Gene Roddenberry, was in fact "Naval Construction Contract". Even if it was declared 'non-canon' years later, it effectively WAS up through the first few movies. :S

Considering the NCC registrar is used on nearly every type of 'Starfleet' vessel, from Battleships down to Ruanbouts (and even, in some cases, shuttles), "Naval Construction Contract" is unfortunately one of the few ideas floating around that fits the bill, even if it's not ideal.
It's not my own preferred idea, but it does... sort of... fit the bill.

It makes no sense to have a "contract number" marked on a hull, to me, though. So I prefer

"Navigational Contact Code." So it's the same marking on your hull and in your broadcast "transponder code" which shows up if someone can't identify you visually.

None of them are "official" so we can make up any version we like. But I prefer that one above all the other options, including M.J.'s "it's just a set of random letters" one.
 
Well, as I said before, the ONLY explanation for NCC that was official and, in fact, even literally signed off on by Gene Roddenberry, was in fact "Naval Construction Contract". Even if it was declared 'non-canon' years later, it effectively WAS up through the first few movies. :S

Considering the NCC registrar is used on nearly every type of 'Starfleet' vessel, from Battleships down to Ruanbouts (and even, in some cases, shuttles), "Naval Construction Contract" is unfortunately one of the few ideas floating around that fits the bill, even if it's not ideal.
It's not my own preferred idea, but it does... sort of... fit the bill.

It makes no sense to have a "contract number" marked on a hull, to me, though. So I prefer

"Navigational Contact Code." So it's the same marking on your hull and in your broadcast "transponder code" which shows up if someone can't identify you visually.

None of them are "official" so we can make up any version we like. But I prefer that one above all the other options, including M.J.'s "it's just a set of random letters" one.

That works better than anything else, especially if the registry number is interpreted as something like a license plate number.

Sort of evokes some funny imagery in Best of Both Worlds:

"Starship Enterprise, registry NCC-1701-D, pull over and prepare to have your license and registration assimilated."
 
That's pretty much it, and the only thing that is required in such cases is that the registry for each ship under the scheme be unique. That way, each Federation Council Appropriations Committee may indeed put different numerical schema on the Registrar to obey, due to whatever political whims are around at the time.

There could be some method to the madness after all, the problem is that the method could very well change radically each time the FCAC changes hands. It's very possible that -all- of the schema ideas we've thrown around these parts may have, in Federation history, actually been true at one point.
 
Interestingly in the NuTrek, the USS Kelvin had a hull number NCC-0514, not NCC-514, which seems to lend credence to Matt Jeffries' old designator, the 5th class of federation ship, 14th ship in the line (After the first ship in it's class) scheme, although for all I know it might have not been intentional... for all I know J.J. Abrams may have designated it 0514 instead of 514 for an entirely different reason or reasons.

From what I read, the "0" was added to simply avoid confusion to the audience when simply seeing the number compared to "1701" (with one starting out at five and the other at one). I am not certain how true or not that actually is, but it's the only 'real world' explanation I had ever heard.

For the registries, I somewhat figured it was numbered as the ship came out, either in some really large list as built in total, or by 'type' (which I just figured out as an idea when reading this) such as Starfleet, Civilian, etc... The reason I say this now, is because ships like U.S.S. Raven have a number in the 30000's while ships of the TNG/DS9/VOY era are in the 70000's, and I find it unlikely that several thousand ships were built in twenty years. Who knows. Maybe they are almost like stardates in someways, the numbers have to do during the time of their order or launch. However, the Jefferies idea, would explain why most sources show Daedlus being some of, if not the actual, first in the line if Fed/Starfleet ships when the UFP was formed and they are in the 100's (First Cruiser, Ship Number...).
 
Interestingly in the NuTrek, the USS Kelvin had a hull number NCC-0514, not NCC-514, which seems to lend credence to Matt Jeffries' old designator, the 5th class of federation ship, 14th ship in the line (After the first ship in it's class) scheme, although for all I know it might have not been intentional... for all I know J.J. Abrams may have designated it 0514 instead of 514 for an entirely different reason or reasons.

From what I read, the "0" was added to simply avoid confusion to the audience when simply seeing the number compared to "1701" (with one starting out at five and the other at one). I am not certain how true or not that actually is, but it's the only 'real world' explanation I had ever heard.

For the registries, I somewhat figured it was numbered as the ship came out, either in some really large list as built in total, or by 'type' (which I just figured out as an idea when reading this) such as Starfleet, Civilian, etc... The reason I say this now, is because ships like U.S.S. Raven have a number in the 30000's while ships of the TNG/DS9/VOY era are in the 70000's, and I find it unlikely that several thousand ships were built in twenty years. Who knows. Maybe they are almost like stardates in someways, the numbers have to do during the time of their order or launch. However, the Jefferies idea, would explain why most sources show Daedlus being some of, if not the actual, first in the line if Fed/Starfleet ships when the UFP was formed and they are in the 100's (First Cruiser, Ship Number...).

For the Kelvin: If I had to use logic, I would surmise that the only reason the registry is "0514" is because Abrams' grandfather Kelvin was born in May of 1914. Had he been born in December, the registry would have been 1214. See? It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this stuff out :)

For the Raven: The Raven's registry uses a NAR prefix, not an NCC prefix, so your example doesn't work. (NAR registries can be any random number, and they are not chronological with NCC registries). I've written a timeline of my own take on the correlation between registries and ship designs in Trek: http://www.box.net/shared/sp4ynx9pm5
 
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For the Kelvin: If I had to use logic, I would surmise that the only reason the registry is "0514" is because Abrams' grandfather Kelvin was born in May of 1914. Had he been born in December, the registry would have been 1214. See? It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this stuff out :)

Genius.

Shame he couldn't have made it 1405 instead then. :)
 
Been lurking forever (well, a decade,anyway), but too often got turned off of posting by how heated discussions could get. I just recently stuck my head in again, though, and I find it a much better atmosphere than I had previously, so I started digging in a bit more earnest. Found this thread, which I am now necro'ing as my first post, as this is something that's been near and dear to my heart for ages.

*ahem* Brace for essay.

Regarding intentions and such... *sigh* There was so much miscommunication and lack of communication back in the day, it's kind of infuriating. Add on top of that Gene's ego plus the tendency of people to look to him for answers (that he'd usually just pull out of his butt), and things get murkier. The earliest somewhat useful reference is The Making of Star Trek (indeed, it was FJ's primary reference, plus photos and film strips ordered from Lincoln Enterprises -- he never really watched the show), but that book has many problems. For starters, Jeffries is barely consulted for it. Something that happened a lot on TOS. He was the Art Director, but the position of "technical Consultant" didn't exist yet. The model shop guys who built the wrecked Constellation never approached him to ask what number should be on it. The clearest indicator of his partially-thunk-out registry system is the "Court Martial" wall chart. At the time, the 17xx registries were supposed to be for the Enterprise's stablemates, the 16xx ones for the immediate predecessor Starship class (fandom gives us the Baton Rouge class, and I have no problem with this), and the lone 18xx would be a subsequent/supplemental Starship class serving alongside the Constitutions.

I'm gonna go with that last one for a little bit to lay out some of my approach. That lone 18xx-range registry -- 1831 -- was the one with the status bar all the way to 100%, and the one Stone pointed to when he mentioned moving the Intrepid out to make room for the Enterprise. The same Intrepid we learned was crewed entirely by Vulcans ("The Immunity Syndrome"). Probably on a purely scientific mission. The same sort of mission the Reliant was on in TWOK. So, in my headcanon, the 18th Cruiser design is the Miranda class, and the later addition of the Saratoga (1867) and Lantree (1833) reinforce this. We know it's a Cruiser since the Starships are Starfleet's Ships-of-the-Line, Heavy Cruisers, workhorses, etc. No prefixes were on that chart,because, thanks to the header, it would be known that all begin with "NCC".

The Lantree is a good example of what the Intrepid/stock Miranda looks like. Slotted into the procurement list for the class at 1860, a block was reserved for a more heavily armed subclass, the Avenger. Still part of the larger base class, though. Ditto the Soyuz class at 1840 (the Bozeman is annoying -- all of the numbers on the miniature were 1841, except one 1941 in homage to the film... and that's the one that showed up prominently on screen).

The Miranda has nearly the same internal volume as a Constitution, albeit arranged differently. I tacitly consider the Light/Heavy distinction to be inclusion of a secondary hull, rather than simple displacement.

So, ducking back over to Reality-Land, into the '70s and '80s, no one talked to Jeffries about this. FJ made up his own system, Gene thought it looked good and signed off on it -- because he had more important things to do that make sure all the fiddly technical details were right, like Main Engineering being in the secondary hull, rather than the primary, or where the photon torpedo launchers were, or why FJ put physical phaser emitters on his plans when the filming miniature had no such features... I have no problem including the bits of FJ's work that, well... work, and fudging or ignoring the stuff that doesn't.

All of this is further complicated by Gene's big falling-out with FJ, which resulted in the Great Bird declaring the plans and Technical Manual non-canon, coming up with Roddenberry's Rules of Starship Design to specifically nullify all of FJ's original designs, and telling FASA and Mike Okuda to ignore FJ's works when they were casting about for starship lists. The only other reference they had was an issue of the 1970s-vintage fan magazine T-Negative, in which a young Greg Jein had written an article wherein he used (by his own admission) barely logical means to line up the known Constitution class ships with the "Court Martial" wall chart registries. He echoed the uncertainty of the time over whether the Intrepid was 1631 or 1831 -- it wouldn't become clear until the higher resolution of the DVD release. FASA went with Jein's system (with errors), and Okuda went with FASA (being as they had a license at the time, thus their list was official).

And so the problems propagate.

I have no problem with Okuda's system of "all Starfleet ships have an NCC prefix and the number is assigned at the time the ship is ordered, regardless of class or type". I have it starting in the late 2280s to early 2290s, and replacing the older Jeffries system...

Now, going back a bit, we all know, when we stop to think about it, that the Tre universe and ours split off no later than some time in the early 1800s. I don't know that we'll ever be able to say for sure that ancient aliens didn't seed the primordial oceans with something to direct evolution toward a shape like theirs (TNG "The Chase") or whether the Greek gods actually existed and were visiting aliens, or any of that. But I have found no record of a Thaddeus Riker serving on either side in the Civil War, so there's a solid fission point there, if not earlier. By the 1960s, things were still largely parallel (although the Trek universe's Amelia Earhart was prettier than ours and the Roswell Incident really was a crashed alien spaceship, rather than a Project: Mogul high-altitude listening device). Then things start to diverge more and more. My placeholder supposition is that Kennedy wasn't killed. We got increasing tension in the Cold War, no Limited Nuclear Test Ban treaty, orbiting weapons platforms...

...And also the future we were promised at the time, without NASA getting defunded by Nixon or the LNTB treaty scrubbing the cooperative projects being jointly developed by NASA and the US Air Force. Their timeline didn't get derailed. Their Apollo program went through Apollo XX, they had their first La Grangian space station online by 1980, first permanently manned moon base by 1990, first manned expeditions to Mars and the outer planets by 2000. Basically, watch the middle act of 2001: A Space Odyssey. They had nuclear-powered cryogenic sleeper ships with artificial gravity being launched by the mid-1990s. The Botany Bay was not stolen by Khan, but was the World Court's solution to him and his followers. That ship and probably others) was sent toward Tau Ceti -- a close system with a good star that never, ever gets mentioned in Trek. Wonder why? Eugenic colony under quarantine, maybe? But the Botany Bay was disabled and knocked off course, drifting further into the constellation Cetus.

So by the time Cochrane had his breakthrough in 2063, we were already colonizing near-space, and each of those would want craft to get around in.

Thanks to Enterprise (even though it's an alternate universe to Prime Trek, I treat some timeline points to be generally reliable/inevitable in both universes), we have the various Human system fleets merging into a single unified Starfleet in the early 2130s, as warp drive and subspace radio improvements tied humans together more cohesively. The first jointly-designed vessel was NX-01, the U.S.S. Dauntless. "N" indicating a ship registeres to Terra or her colonies, "X" indicating no specific system allegiance (rather than different operating agencies, I have NAR, NDT, and NGL being the prefixes for one or another of the Human-colonized systems)... with U.S.S. a new name title meaning "United Starfleet Ship".

Now, back to the Jeffries era. In addition to the meaning of the numbers, he also speculated later on what the prefix meant -- but, again, no one started interviewing him about this stuff until the '90s. He came up with "NCC" off the cuff, through a well-documented process I won't repeat here. What's relevant is that he later found himself drawing a parallel to the wet Navy Cruiser prefix of CC, and figured that other ship types, like Frigates or Destroyers, would have similarly analogous prefixes -- NFF or NDD, to carry those examples forward. That works for me. The non-repeating three-letter prefixes are for civilian-flagged vessels (N originally for Terrans, later the whole Federation, since they were the driving force behind that, too), while the doubled letters indicated an active-service Starfleet vessel. NX would continue to mean "not (yet) assigned", getting changed to "NCC" once entering active service. "Naval Construction Contract" and "Naval Experimental" got coined by civilian Starfleet aficionados as a handy mnemonic.

The latter two numbers did indeed indicate production number within the class, and the number(s) preceding indicating that class. As Starfleet's shipbuilding capacity was still limited enough that most classes wouldn't get anywhere near a hundred vessels before being retired or no new ships of the class being constructed due to being supplanted by something newer. By the time of TOS and the films, production capacity was improving enough that some of the more recent classes were brushing close to a hundred vessels, and so they started hammering out a new registry system -- the Okuda system. Existing non-cruiser ships would retain their old-style prefixes until they were retired. New ships of those classes (any that were still seeing new construction) would be flagged NCC. And all new vessels, regardless of class or type, would get a sequential registry number assigned at the time of ordering, starting with NCC-2500.

You might think this extremely problematic, but having discussed several different approaches, this one works best to transition from the one system to the other, with only a handful of ships needing fixes (not counting the mess TOS: Remastered made of the issue). But I'll get to those in their turn...

First, FJ's ship lists don't work. The Destroyers and Transports need different prefixes, the numbers are derived from an erroneous premise, and production runs of over a hundred vessels would break Jeffries' registry model, not to mention being beyond shipbuilding capacities of the day. Between 2245 and 2270, we only have about sixty-five confirmed Constitution-class ships built (going by the Defiant's registry), of which most have been lost in the line of duty ("only a dozen like her"). However, I do use his ship designs, many names, and his Starfleet Headquarters space station as the orbital portion of Starbase 11.

I have worked back from the NCC-2500 starting point I give the Okuda-era registries to fill in the first 24 Cruiser classes, bringing in the best I've found from all over the canon and fandom, with more I'm still sifting. I have the 1st (Daedalus), 6th (Caracal), 9th (Ranger), 10th (Horizon), 12th (Mann), 13th (Archon), 15th (the Ares' class from Axanar, registry adjusted), 16th (Baton Rouge), 17th (Constitution), 18th (Miranda), 19th (Constellation), 20th (Excelsior), 21st (Federation), 22nd (Belknap), 23rd (Enterprise), and 24th (Menagha/S'Harien). Still missing eight. From there I have used canon and fandom stuff to fill in as much as I can in the way of Destroyers, Frigates, Scouts, and Transports. I have subclasses, like the Avenger to the base Miranda, with the added combat capacity, that change the type of the subclass from what the class started out as. To continue the example, the Miranda is a Light Cruiser (as I said above, roughly the same displacement as a Constitution, but not multihulled, no long-range sensor dish, no torpedoes, etc.), while the Avenger subclass is a Heavy Frigate (capable of independent operations, like a Cruiser, but with more combat capacity than balancing that with scientific). However, it retains the prefix of the base class, to avoid crossing over to a potential conflict (like if there were an eighteenth Frigate design as well). The vessel's loadout/mission profile (CC, FH, DF, etc.) would be an annotation in its file, not emblazoned on the hull.

Ultimately, I only have seven problematic registries from all over the canon: the Revere is fixed by changing the "NCC" in dialogue to "NDD"; the Columbia, Grissom, and Copernicus need to be "NSS" (for Scout); and the Jenolan needs to be "NTT" (for Transport). All the numbers remain unchanged for these. And the two whose prefixes are fine but need the numbers changed are the lead ship of the Constellation class -- needs to be NX-1900, rather than NX-1974; and, like others, I retcon the Constellation from "The Doomsday Machine" to NCC-1710. Any other perceived issues I'd be glad to speak to.

Thoughts? :)
--Jonah
 
Rick and Mike came up with the NAR prefix from the real-world National Association of Rocketry. The letters don't mean anything in-universe. It's my leading candidate from all the non-Starfleet Federation registries for those ships home-ported in the Solar system.

The walking dead of 7 year old threads
I've never had an issue reviving threads of any age if I feel I'm adding something relevant to the discussion that hadn't been brought up previously in it.

--Jonah
 
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