What Are The Real Plot Holes In The Movie?

[Hartzilla2007]

(Side note - we watched The Fountain the other night, and it motherspockin' blew me away. One of my favorite movies ever, instantly. I was sobbing by the end credits, and after smoking a cigarette through my tears, I watched it again. Just for reference.)

Yeah it was a good movie, I don't know what was going on in the movie but it was good.

See, I know I'm probably regarded as a curmudgeon on these boards but I feel that a good movie should be able to hold up without supplemental material.

And there is absolutely no evidence given in the movie to suggest he had been in the prison. 25 years is a long flipping time for a supership to come rescue their captain.

Here's something that could be entertaining.

Since presumably Nero's ear was injured while on Rura Penthe in the original version, what is a good explanation for it in the context of the canon of the movie?

That injury and the other cranial scarring were sustained in the damage inflicted on Narada by the Kelvin's ramming, or in an accident taking place during Narada's repair?

But that wasn't said to have happened and it was mentioned by Uhura that the Narada blew up 47 Klingon ships near a prison planet, so Nero in prison isn't so far fetched.

 

[M'Sharak]

Damn, I was hoping for a funny response, not a well-thought plausible explanation.

Eh, I don't know how well-thought-out it was, but it was getting late and I wasn't coming up with a funny I was completely happy with.

He got his ears caught in a mechanical rice-picker.

That one did cross my mind, though. I just couldn't think of a way to make it fit.

That injury and the other cranial scarring were sustained in the damage inflicted on Narada by the Kelvin's ramming, or in an accident taking place during Narada's repair?

But that wasn't said to have happened and it was mentioned by Uhura that the Narada blew up 47 Klingon ships near a prison planet, so Nero in prison isn't so far fetched.

No, it wasn't, and she did, and you're right - it's a conclusion which could have been drawn (especially if you had been following spoilers and knew about the back-story told in the comics) but for anyone coming in cold, the movie is a bit vague about what happened with Nero & Co. for most of the intervening 25 years.

You could almost as easily draw a conclusion that Nero had been on Delta Vega prior to his marooning Spock there and tangled with one of the ice-planet beasties. The scars on his head look almost like the marks left by the bite of a large shark, so from there, it's not hard to call up a mental picture of Nero scouting the place out and getting surprised by Big Red, who seizes Nero's head in his jaws and gives him a shake before being distracted by something else and letting him go. (Insert appropriate Carl Stalling cartoon music and sound effects, as needed.) Ayel, standing nearby and watching, laughs his ass off. Nero will get even with him for this later, when he least expects it.

 

[Commander Rabbit]

For me the only plot holes are how Nero and his gigantic ship managed to go undetected for 25 years in the 23rd century (especially after the movie cut out the Klingon subplot), and how he could nurse a grudge for so long against a Federation that clearly MEANT well and tried to help his planet, but simply didn't get there in time to save it. Hell, it's not like the red matter bomb was guaranteed to work anyway.

It would be like some firefighters not getting to a house fire in time to save your wife and children, so you decide to kill ALL the firefighters families and burn down every firehouse in the state. I mean... it just doesn't make any kind of emotional sense at all-- unless you're a completely irrational madman, and that's not the impression I got of Nero at all.

Actually, that's exactly the impression I DID get: totally irrational and off the proverbial deep end from grief.

 

[Yassim]

For me the only plot holes are how Nero and his gigantic ship managed to go undetected for 25 years in the 23rd century (especially after the movie cut out the Klingon subplot), and how he could nurse a grudge for so long against a Federation that clearly MEANT well and tried to help his planet, but simply didn't get there in time to save it. Hell, it's not like the red matter bomb was guaranteed to work anyway.

It would be like some firefighters not getting to a house fire in time to save your wife and children, so you decide to kill ALL the firefighters families and burn down every firehouse in the state. I mean... it just doesn't make any kind of emotional sense at all-- unless you're a completely irrational madman, and that's not the impression I got of Nero at all.

Actually, that's exactly the impression I DID get: totally irrational and off the proverbial deep end from grief.

But then, you are thrown back in time hundreds of years, and your first thought is not "Now I can save everyone!".

Instead, your first thought is "Now I take my revenge on an entire planet... for someone trying to help me... avert a disaster that hasn't happened yet... hmmm.... in 25 years, no one pointed any of this out to me."

I had a good time, but this guy's motivation was complete nonsense.

 

[Chindogu]

But then, you are thrown back in time hundreds of years, and your first thought is not "Now I can save everyone!".

Instead, your first thought is "Now I take my revenge on an entire planet... for someone trying to help me... avert a disaster that hasn't happened yet... hmmm.... in 25 years, no one pointed any of this out to me."

I had a good time, but this guy's motivation was complete nonsense.

Well revenge was most likely what he was after when attacking the Kelvin. After that though, and this is what I got from his speech to Pike, Nero was trying to not only save Romulus (he still had 125+ years to do so) but also create an environment in which the Empire would be unfettered by the Federation.

Revenge only really came into play with Spock. And this was his down fall. The only reason he didn't destroy the Enterprise at the battle of Vulcan was because he seemed to know that Spock was aboard. He wanted him to witness the destruction of his planet and those he cared for. This was also another reason he waited 25 years (without the Klingon incident being established on screen) for Spock Prime. Revenge and the Red Matter.

 

[dcbpe]

Plot hole:

When the Narada comes through the black hole and attacks the Kelvin, there is dialogue regarding what appears to be a lightning storm in space which the Kelvin goes to investigate...the lightning is the effect of the Narada coming through the black hole from the Primeverse.

Flash forward 25 years and Uhura happens to be in the right place at the right time to hear a transmission about a lighting storm and some big ship taking out 47 Klingon ships. Cadet Kirk, in his brilliance, realizes that the same ship that attacked the Kelvin is now attacking Vulcan based specifically and solely on the lighting storm description. He uses same to brow beat Captain Pike on the bridge of his own ship.

But the Narada didn't exit a black hole to attack the Klingons or Vulcan, so why was there a lightning storm in space for Kirk to connect events with?

 

[Anticitizen]

Plot hole:

When the Narada comes through the black hole and attacks the Kelvin, there is dialogue regarding what appears to be a lightning storm in space which the Kelvin goes to investigate...the lightning is the effect of the Narada coming through the black hole from the Primeverse.

Flash forward 25 years and Uhura happens to be in the right place at the right time to hear a transmission about a lighting storm and some big ship taking out 47 Klingon ships. Cadet Kirk, in his brilliance, realizes that the same ship that attacked the Kelvin is now attacking Vulcan based specifically and solely on the lighting storm description. He uses same to brow beat Captain Pike on the bridge of his own ship.

But the Narada didn't exit a black hole to attack the Klingons or Vulcan, so why was there a lightning storm in space for Kirk to connect events with?

The consensus is that the new lightning storm is Spock's ship coming back in time. The mystery, of course, is how Nero knew where to find Spock - it's suggested that he was able to do calculations on where and when Spock would show up, but the problem is that the Narada went through the black hole/wormhole first, and therefore having the data available to do such calculations would be a problem.

It's also a little tricky trying to figure out the exact chain of events and how close together they took place - lightning storm, a Klingon fleet, capturing Spock, and destroying Vulcan seemed to take place rather quickly.

It's easy to make the assumption, while watching, that lightning storm #2 is due to the Narada, because Kirk warns Pike about the lightning storm being exactly that ship, and then they run into that ship two minutes later. Of course, Kirk's warning did little good - Sulu's delay in getting the ship underway had more to do with their survival than the warning did.

Last and not least, on that topic - we all know the Narada is badass and all, but the Enterprise was only delayed 10-20 seconds behind the rest of the fleet. That seems a bit fast for the rest of the fleet to be destroyed before the Enterprise gets there, even for the Narada.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

It's easy to make the assumption, while watching, that lightning storm #2 is due to the Narada, because Kirk warns Pike about the lightning storm being exactly that ship, and then they run into that ship two minutes later. Of course, Kirk's warning did little good - Sulu's delay in getting the ship underway had more to do with their survival than the warning did.

Well Kirk's warning did cause Pike to order a Red Alert and to raise sheilds, so that had to help.

Last and not least, on that topic - we all know the Narada is badass and all, but the Enterprise was only delayed 10-20 seconds behind the rest of the fleet. That seems a bit fast for the rest of the fleet to be destroyed before the Enterprise gets there, even for the Narada.

Well the other ships showed up with sheilds down while Nero was probably expecting a fight so he had sheilds and weapons online all he had to do was take the other ships out before they knew what hit them, and Trek does have a precidnece for blowing up ships with only one shot if they hit the primary reactor or whatever the Klingons hit that made the Grissom go boom.

 

[davejames]

Come to think of it... was it really necessary to send SO many starships to Vulcan in the first place? And to mobilize so damn quickly? A lightnight storm in space doesn't sound like something that would require half the freakin fleet to investigate.

And once again, why doesn't Vulcan have ships to do this kind of thing? Is Earth the only planet in this alternate universe that has a functioning space program?? lol

 

[M'Sharak]

Come to think of it... was it really necessary to send SO many starships to Vulcan in the first place? And to mobilize so damn quickly? A lightnight storm in space doesn't sound like something that would require half the freakin fleet to investigate.

The information about the lightning storm was, until Kirk connected the two, a separate issue from the severe seismic disturbances reported on Vulcan. It was the latter, received during Kirk's Kobayashi Maru hearing, which prompted the emergency rescue mission and was thus expected to require that many ships. The "lightning storm in space" report was an intelligence intercept not announced until the ship was underway and did not originate with the Vulcans.

And once again, why doesn't Vulcan have ships to do this kind of thing?

Never explained, but it's possible that they did have ships which were already engaged in rescue/evacuation efforts or were destroyed while attempting to investigate a giant ship in orbit. We just don't know.

 

[FlapJoy]

I'm speaking of destiny, as I explained already.

If you believe 'destiny' will alter all possible timelines so that they are similar, that's fine, go right ahead. I don't subscribe to it because of the implications it has for free will, but hey, whatever.

Fictional characters do not have free will ...

Destiny, as pertaining to this film, is a literary device to not only bring together this crew, but also demonstrate that this crew is meant for greatness no matter what universe they exist in, parallel or otherwise. The only crew (perhaps) that can end the crisis at hand when they are all finally brought together.

Destiny, as a REAL WORLD notion does not inhibit free will as none of us truly know what our destiny is if we ever had one. If anything, it can be seen as a motivator, if one believes they have a destiny it requires free will for that person to fulfill it… or not if they choose not to (there goes that free will again). Prophecy might be closer to a belief that restrains free will, but to hold a belief in anything still requires some level of free will.

 

[Stardate]

I feel Star Trek entire story is a plothole. What were Nero and Narada doing 25 years after they enter the alternative time-line and attacked the Kelvin. The movie gives zero explanation for this. In original script it gives the explanation that Nero and NArada was capture by Klingon's and send to prison for 25 years. I have some issues with this. Why doesn't Nero and crew look older when they capture Prime Spock? Also Nero and his surviving men managed to escape from Rhura Pentha(spelling) prison colony but they were also able to recapture 25 years older Narada with their Borg weapons from the Klingon Empire. Come on does Orci and Kurtzman expect us to believe that Nero can recapture Narada intact after 25 years. Klingon would have rip Narada apart to get their hand on its future tech and they would have tortured Nero or some from his mining crew to assist them. Their is no way that Nero could have get his hand on Narada after 25 years because the Klingon's would have by then dismantled it.

 

[FlapJoy]

I feel Star Trek entire story is a plothole. What were Nero and Narada doing 25 years after they enter the alternative time-line and attacked the Kelvin. The movie gives zero explanation for this. In original script it gives the explanation that Nero and NArada was capture by Klingon's and send to prison for 25 years. I have some issues with this. Why doesn't Nero and crew look older when they capture Prime Spock?

I wonder if part of the reason they removed the Klingon prison subplot was that it makes more sense for Nero to just wait quietly for Spock Prime to come thru the black hole 25 years later without incident. There's a line in the film where Nero states something about calculating when Spock Prime would arrive and how long he waited for that moment. Your right, if the Klingons had captured the Narada and crew then a lot would have to happen to escape and bring them all back together in time. BUT if they just quietly bided their time hiding out and staying out of the way of history it's a much more believable concept to me.

As far as aging, I might think that Romulans age at a similar rate as the long lived Vulcans since they seem to be from the same ancestry... 25 years to a Romulan would not show on their face as much as humans.

 

[Flake]

Why did the Enterprise go to the trouble of warping into Titans atmosphere?

 

[Anticitizen]

Fictional characters do not have free will ...

Destiny, as pertaining to this film, is a literary device to not only bring together this crew, but also demonstrate that this crew is meant for greatness no matter what universe they exist in, parallel or otherwise.

Bold added for emphasis above.

To me, that sounds functionally identical to 'plot contrivance', which is what I called it in the first place.

 

[FlapJoy]

Fictional characters do not have free will ...

Destiny, as pertaining to this film, is a literary device to not only bring together this crew, but also demonstrate that this crew is meant for greatness no matter what universe they exist in, parallel or otherwise.

Bold added for emphasis above.

To me, that sounds functionally identical to 'plot contrivance', which is what I called it in the first place.

Functionally identical fine, so why do you rule out 'destiny' considering you don't 'subscribe' to it? ...as was your word since you had free will issues. But it would seem you see it as different, how so?

 

[Anticitizen]

I mean, I don't believe in destiny in the real world. If you want to use it as a literary device to explain plot contrivances, fine, but in my opinion, that makes the movie a fantasy movie.

 

[number6]

Just because you don't believe in destiny doesn't mean that no one else does.

 

[FlapJoy]

I mean, I don't believe in destiny in the real world. If you want to use it as a literary device to explain plot contrivances, fine, but in my opinion, that makes the movie a fantasy movie.

As I've explained, I wasn't speaking of destiny in the real world, never did I say that. But in the literary format in envokes a feeling, that's what makes a good story. You seemed to think I was an enemy of free will, or whatever... that was NEVER my point.

And P.S... Star Trek IS a fantasy movie!!

 

[Anticitizen]

Just because you don't believe in destiny doesn't mean that no one else does.

Very true. So true, in fact, that I said it myself earlier in the thread:

If you believe 'destiny' will alter all possible timelines so that they are similar, that's fine, go right ahead. I don't subscribe to it because of the implications it has for free will, but hey, whatever.

I mean, I don't believe in destiny in the real world. If you want to use it as a literary device to explain plot contrivances, fine, but in my opinion, that makes the movie a fantasy movie.

As I've explained, I wasn't speaking of destiny in the real world, never did I say that. But in the literary format in envokes a feeling, that's what makes a good story. You seemed to think I was an enemy of free will, or whatever... that was NEVER my point.

I never called you 'the enemy of free will'. I said I didn't like the implications for free will that the idea of 'destiny' conveys. You seem to be trying to find personal attacks in what I write.

And P.S... Star Trek IS a fantasy movie!!

Yes, this movie was a fantasy movie, like Star Wars. That's not something I would say about most of the other films. Insurrection, certainly, when Picard learns to freeze time somehow...