Could Wesley Crusher as "Acting Ensign" give Chief O'Brien as enlisted crewman orders?
Ranks and Roles in TrekLit Starfleet
- Thread starter Shamrock Holmes
- Start date
I would assume so.
When Nog was promoted to Ensign, could he give orders to O'Brien? Since O'Brien was his superior officer, I doubt it. I just don't know if they ever dealt with it. Maybe "superior officer' is the wrong wording when referring to O'Brien, but that's exactly what the situation was. O'Brien was chief engineer...
Only if he's stupid. At that low a level, rank means little compared to the experience of the senior enlisted person in question. Someone in Wesley's position should really be too busy learning and should only give orders if required to (like in that one episode I can barely remember in TNG Season 1 or 2 when Picard puts him in charge of a project).
Technically, though, it would depend on how "official" Starfleet viewed an acting ensign designation. Unfortunately, I don't believe that has been elaborated on. Personally, I think it would be about on the level of an academy cadet trying to throw their weight around. Wait 'till you're a real officer first...
That's a good point. There were a lot of inconsistencies regarding officer/enlisted ranks on screen, and that's a perfect example.
Wait, I think I remember an episode where O'Brien talks to Nog about receiving orders from him once he got promoted to Ensign. Must be an episode where Nog is still a cadet in the Academy.
Like a cadet taking command of a starship and getting promoted to Captain two days later...Section31 said:
Well, in Season Three O'Brien jokes to Bashir about having to call Nog "sir" once he graduates...
I'm guessing that's what you remember.
Yes, that could be it.
Like a cadet taking command of a starship and getting promoted to Captain two days later...Section31 said:
[/QUOTE]OMG, don't get me started... I liked the new movie, but Kirk the insta-captain and Spock having an inappropriate relationship with one of his students are two things I would have cut immediately if I were the executive producer.
I agree that you should see more enlisted crew. But, I strongly suspect that it would be better to use the Air Force as precedent for the ratio of officers to enlisted, rather than the Navy or Army, given the highly technical nature of what both services do.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Enlisted
Despite that, two notable TNG enlisted crew come to mind offhand; Simon Tarses in the Drumhead, and Worf's adoptive father.
New Starfleet Officers (Like Nog or Wesley) probably have a similar situation as modern Academy Graduates; They may technically rank the chiefs, but it takes a while to move past that natural deference to age and experience...unless you're that particular story's objective lesson in how being an arrogant and incompetant noob gets people killed.
Despite that, two notable TNG enlisted crew come to mind offhand; Simon Tarses in the Drumhead, and Worf's adoptive father.
New Starfleet Officers (Like Nog or Wesley) probably have a similar situation as modern Academy Graduates; They may technically rank the chiefs, but it takes a while to move past that natural deference to age and experience...unless you're that particular story's objective lesson in how being an arrogant and incompetant noob gets people killed.
At the risk of dragging this thread off-topic, I feel compelled to address what seem to be clear misperceptions in your posts on this topic. I detect a distinct Air Force service bias, and one that seems ill-informed at best. The Air Force, at least the one I have had the opportunity to observe first-hand, has plenty of enlisted personnel, and many more enlisted than officers. The ratio isn't that much different from the Army or the Navy. For every officer who's a pilot/navigator/etc., there's probably about a dozen enlisted personnel maintaining the aircraft and equipment, loading the ordnance, filing the paperwork, and a whole host of other tasks. Furthermore, the Air Force doesn't have a monopoly on educated enlisted personnel. I've personally met several Navy enlisted folks with masters degrees and several Air Force personnel who aren't especially educated (and vice versa).
As for the assertions about Starfleet incorporating Air Force service culture, how exactly do you figure that? Everything I've seen in over 20 years of life as a Star Trek fan(atic) points to Starfleet's having stronger maritime traditions than anything else. From the rank system to the employment of ships and fleets and a whole host of other vestiges of a distincly naval tradition. Now don't get me wrong, I love my Air Force brothers and sisters dearly, but until I hear of Starfleet ships having names like Mitchell, Arnold, and LeMay, I'm not buying into your line of reasoning.
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USS Yeager (and the Yeager class kitbash) is out there, but I wouldn't try and dispute the general conclusion that there's much more of a Naval tradition going on.
I have no disrespect for the Navy...especially considering I have family members who serve and have served on both the Navy and the Air Force. I would not say the Air Force has a monopoly on educated enlisted personnel, either--but you are going to have a high proportion of people in the Air Force engaged in those trades. In a space program, that number is going to be even higher.
However, the difference in officer-to-enlisted ratios between the services is a demonstrable fact, as are the "cultural" differences between the services as to how enlisted-officer interactions are handled.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/does-officer-enlisted-ratio-matter-page2-t18852.html
So Trek could certainly make a greater effort to be realistic in showing enlisted personnel, but a 4:1 ratio would be more than significant. Perhaps, in the 24th century, even 3:1.
And as far as I'm concerned, for better or for worse, what we see in Starfleet mirrors the Air Force, not the Navy. We see no evidence of the sharp divisions, either in Ten-Forward or Quark's, between "officer's country" or "enlisted country," nor a lot of the other very pronounced forms of ceremony that normally accompany such interactions in the Navy. It's a fact that while the Air Force has discipline in this regard--the traditions are definitely in a more relaxed form. This is what we see in Starfleet...to an even greater degree.
But, given the fact that NASA--at the time of TOS--had drawn from Air Force, Navy, AND Marine sources, as well as having civilians in non-astronaut positions, it makes much more sense to me that you WOULD expect a mix of traditions.
I would also add this last bit about the Air Force. Its officially-stated mission is to "fly, fight, and win in air, space, and cyberspace." Given that, it actually seems ridiculous to me to assume that SOME Air Force tradition wouldn't get into Starfleet and mix with the obvious Naval traditions we also see.
(And on ship naming--if you ask me, we SHOULD be seeing names that also include aviation greats as well as naval ones. Starfleet owes its existence to both.)
However, the difference in officer-to-enlisted ratios between the services is a demonstrable fact, as are the "cultural" differences between the services as to how enlisted-officer interactions are handled.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/does-officer-enlisted-ratio-matter-page2-t18852.html
So Trek could certainly make a greater effort to be realistic in showing enlisted personnel, but a 4:1 ratio would be more than significant. Perhaps, in the 24th century, even 3:1.
And as far as I'm concerned, for better or for worse, what we see in Starfleet mirrors the Air Force, not the Navy. We see no evidence of the sharp divisions, either in Ten-Forward or Quark's, between "officer's country" or "enlisted country," nor a lot of the other very pronounced forms of ceremony that normally accompany such interactions in the Navy. It's a fact that while the Air Force has discipline in this regard--the traditions are definitely in a more relaxed form. This is what we see in Starfleet...to an even greater degree.
But, given the fact that NASA--at the time of TOS--had drawn from Air Force, Navy, AND Marine sources, as well as having civilians in non-astronaut positions, it makes much more sense to me that you WOULD expect a mix of traditions.
I would also add this last bit about the Air Force. Its officially-stated mission is to "fly, fight, and win in air, space, and cyberspace." Given that, it actually seems ridiculous to me to assume that SOME Air Force tradition wouldn't get into Starfleet and mix with the obvious Naval traditions we also see.
(And on ship naming--if you ask me, we SHOULD be seeing names that also include aviation greats as well as naval ones. Starfleet owes its existence to both.)
Regarding who takes orders from whom...
I've always assumed based on what we've seen that, chain of command trumps rank. While 95 times out of 100 those will run together there are times where that isn't the case. The most notable examples I can think of off hand are:
Titan: Where Vale is the 2nd in command but she has the same rank as Troi and Tuvok. In this case her command position allows her to issue orders to the other two.
Voyager: There have been a few times (I'm thinking in Future's End specifically) where Harry was left in command of the ship since Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, and Tom were all off ship, but B'Elanna was still there. B'Elanna even said in the ep where they were trying to decide how to retrieve the captain that she left him in charge and this it's his order to give. (paraphrasing).
And the aforementioned DS9 where Nog was an ensign but Chief O'Brien was still able to issue orders to him due to his position as Chief Engineer.
I think the primary times in Trek where we'll see this is when a Chief Engineer has a high rank, but can't take command of the ship in the absence of the senior staff due to their engineering duties.
I've always assumed based on what we've seen that, chain of command trumps rank. While 95 times out of 100 those will run together there are times where that isn't the case. The most notable examples I can think of off hand are:
Titan: Where Vale is the 2nd in command but she has the same rank as Troi and Tuvok. In this case her command position allows her to issue orders to the other two.
Voyager: There have been a few times (I'm thinking in Future's End specifically) where Harry was left in command of the ship since Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, and Tom were all off ship, but B'Elanna was still there. B'Elanna even said in the ep where they were trying to decide how to retrieve the captain that she left him in charge and this it's his order to give. (paraphrasing).
And the aforementioned DS9 where Nog was an ensign but Chief O'Brien was still able to issue orders to him due to his position as Chief Engineer.
I think the primary times in Trek where we'll see this is when a Chief Engineer has a high rank, but can't take command of the ship in the absence of the senior staff due to their engineering duties.
^^ Or "Disaster", when O'Brien indicates that, had she survived, Monroe, a Lt. J.G., would have been in command over Troi, who was a Lieutenant Commander at that point.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
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