Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[Guy Gardener]

She was given the extra time to be fleshed out and interesting because her stunt boobies tapped a demographic the others didn't or couldn't. Marketing decisions by cold bastards well above Ryan's pay grade. Displacement. Others suffered and stayed small so that Seven could grow. A conservation of growth even?

The usual.

 

[teya]

To me Seven is a lot like someone who has just graduated from college, they have a lot of knowledge, in fact a lot of them think they know everything. The first real sign of maturity is when they realize that they don't in fact know everything. They discount someone else's interests as irrelevant (Seven to Chakotay in "One Small Step"), they think they know better the course that should be taken ( "Prey"), and they have a somewhat exaggerated view of their own abilities ("The Omega Directive".)

Funny, Seven came to see Chakotay's perspective in both "One Small Step" and "Natural Law." She realized she didn't know everything.

The fact that you think all that Seven of Nine was is a well endowed woman in a catsuit speaks volumes. Seven got more development in four years than most VGR characters got in seven, and was the second-most fleshed out, interesting character on the ship (to HoloDoc). This is due in no small part to Jeri Ryan, as you mention.

The fact that you don't see the problem speaks volumns too.

Brit

I agree with Kestrel that the character was beautifully fleshed out.

 

[teya]

Teya, the experience you had with your boyfriend may seem similar to what Seven did, but the analogy doesn't necessarily work. You and your boyfriend were experienced and aware of what the commitment would require of you. As Chakotay wisely tells her, no one can predict the future--something that apparently hadn't occured to Seven. In your case, you knew quite well that you could have predeceased your boyfriend through any number of illnesses and accidents. All anyone can promise someone else is today.

And I was in the same position Chakotay was.

You argued that Chakotay was weak to argue for the relationship.

If that's the case, then so was I.

The reality is that Seven's reaction to what the admiral tells her shows her immaturity and reveals that her relationship with Chakotay is not "equal," at all. Her motivation, to keep from hurting Chakotay, might be similar to your boyfriend's motivation, but to say that he was like Seven and you like Chakotay is a false analogy IMHO.

Um, no.

It's not "the reality" but your perception, therefore your opinion.

As shocking as this may be, not all of us agree, and that doesn't make us delusional or unable to see reality.

IMHO.

 

[Brit]

Um, no.

It's not "the reality" but your perception, therefore your opinion.

Even so, it is a very popular perception and therefore worthy of acknowledging. We are talking about a character, and any character's reality is the perception of the individuals in the audience.

Brit

 

[Da'an]

What qualities would Seven actually see in Chakotay that would suggest he's a suitable mate for her?

I'd have expected she would be more interested in Tuvok, for example.

 

[teya]

Um, no.

It's not "the reality" but your perception, therefore your opinion.

Even so, it is a very popular perception and therefore worthy of acknowledging. We are talking about a character, and any character's reality is the perception of the individuals in the audience.

Brit

Exactly, I totally agree. And have accepted all of your perceptions and opinions, even as I disagree with them.

However, AuntKate described her perception as "reality." This discounts any other perception and opinion.

One might say that she's saying that her perception is the only one that counts, or that in this instance, she knows everything...

 

[teya]

The fact that you think all that Seven of Nine was is a well endowed woman in a catsuit speaks volumes. Seven got more development in four years than most VGR characters got in seven, and was the second-most fleshed out, interesting character on the ship (to HoloDoc). This is due in no small part to Jeri Ryan, as you mention.

The fact that you don't see the problem speaks volumns too.

Brit

What problem would that be?

I'd like an answer to this as well...

 

[AuntKate]

Let's look at this from Seven's perspective.

An Admiral Janeway from the future arrives with technology and knowledge that will allow them to return to the AQ post haste. The captain, however, has a different agenda, and so the two of them, admiral and captain, are in the midst of a disagreement about how they should proceed. All of a sudden, the admiral arrives at Seven's workplace and starts trying to manipulate her. Alarms should go off, putting Seven on guard.

This admiral knows what her future was like. She remembers that Seven has issues about the return to the AQ and that the C/7 relationship is in its earliest stages. So, she gets Seven alone and attempts to persuade her to disobey her captain's orders. She does this by telling Seven that her death will have a permanent negative impact on her eventual husband, Chakotay. That she is attempting to manipulate Seven is obvious, and Seven would have seen that.

That is, the Seven we have known for four years would have seen it. That Seven would have reported the conversation to the captain and probably would have discussed the news of her possible death with her boyfriend, as well. This news, after all, would not be terribly upsetting to her. Everyone on the crew knows that their lives are in constant danger, so it is something they would have come to terms with long ago. Seven would also know that the admiral's future has forever been changed and that her death is hardly etched in stone. In fact, there is no way to know whether the admiral's story is even true--she could be exaggerating or making it up.

However, this isn't the Seven we've known for four years. This is the naive, impressionable ingenue of "Endgame" who reacts in an immature and illogical way. Not only does she take the admiral's news as gospel, she fails to report this manipuation to the captain, and she doesn't discuss the news of her death with the boyfriend. Nope. She just resigns herself to this future and decides unilaterally to break up with her boyfriend. It's something I'd expect Naomi to do, but not Seven of Nine.

I realize that this is my "reality," but I think it is defensible. I've noticed that you like to defend your reality, too, Teya.

BTW, Guy, I love the "stunt boobies" comment! It's such a shame that this awesome character had to be packaged in a way that makes her more memorable as a joke than as a serious and interesting person.

 

[teya]

I realize that this is my "reality," but I think it is defensible. I've noticed that you like to defend your reality, too, Teya.
.

The difference is, I don't call mine "reality."

I call it my perception and my opinion. Which allows you to have yours.

When you define your perception as "reality," you exclude other perceptions and opinions as untruthful and invalid. That's not exactly the way to have a polite debate, you know?

Of course, that's assuming you do want polite debate.

BTW, Guy, I love the "stunt boobies" comment! It's such a shame that this awesome character had to be packaged in a way that makes her more memorable as a joke than as a serious and interesting person

It's sad to me that other women judge women this way--based on looks.

Jeri made a good point by wearing the costume: that women *can* look as Seven does and still be brilliant, competent, and complex.

 

[exodus]

Let's look at this from Seven's perspective.

An Admiral Janeway from the future arrives with technology and knowledge that will allow them to return to the AQ post haste. The captain, however, has a different agenda, and so the two of them, admiral and captain, are in the midst of a disagreement about how they should proceed. All of a sudden, the admiral arrives at Seven's workplace and starts trying to manipulate her. Alarms should go off, putting Seven on guard.

This admiral knows what her future was like. She remembers that Seven has issues about the return to the AQ and that the C/7 relationship is in its earliest stages. So, she gets Seven alone and attempts to persuade her to disobey her captain's orders. She does this by telling Seven that her death will have a permanent negative impact on her eventual husband, Chakotay. That she is attempting to manipulate Seven is obvious, and Seven would have seen that.

That is, the Seven we have known for four years would have seen it. That Seven would have reported the conversation to the captain and probably would have discussed the news of her possible death with her boyfriend, as well. This news, after all, would not be terribly upsetting to her. Everyone on the crew knows that their lives are in constant danger, so it is something they would have come to terms with long ago. Seven would also know that the admiral's future has forever been changed and that her death is hardly etched in stone. In fact, there is no way to know whether the admiral's story is even true--she could be exaggerating or making it up.

However, this isn't the Seven we've known for four years. This is the naive, impressionable ingenue of "Endgame" who reacts in an immature and illogical way. Not only does she take the admiral's news as gospel, she fails to report this manipuation to the captain, and she doesn't discuss the news of her death with the boyfriend. Nope. She just resigns herself to this future and decides unilaterally to break up with her boyfriend. It's something I'd expect Naomi to do, but not Seven of Nine.

You mean the same Seven of Nine that defied capt. Janeways direct orders in "Prey" & "Bliss" because she didn't want to be a willing partispant in her distrustion and the distruction of the Voyager crew. The same Seven that never told anybody the Borg Queen could directly contact her and left Voyager without a word to rejoin the collective inorder to have the Queen leave the ship & crew alone in "Dark Frontier".
The same Seven that kept her own medical well being from Icheb because she didn't wish for him to worry about loosing her in "Imperfection".

For 4 years, Seven has had a history of avoiding the issues that would cause others to be killed or save them pain. Breaking up w/ Chakotay to help him avoid the pain of her death by not having him become attached to her falls into a pattern she's been displaying for years. So you're not showing us Seven's perspective but rather what your own opinion of it is.

 

[teya]

Let's look at this from Seven's perspective.

An Admiral Janeway from the future arrives with technology and knowledge that will allow them to return to the AQ post haste. The captain, however, has a different agenda, and so the two of them, admiral and captain, are in the midst of a disagreement about how they should proceed. All of a sudden, the admiral arrives at Seven's workplace and starts trying to manipulate her. Alarms should go off, putting Seven on guard.

This admiral knows what her future was like. She remembers that Seven has issues about the return to the AQ and that the C/7 relationship is in its earliest stages. So, she gets Seven alone and attempts to persuade her to disobey her captain's orders. She does this by telling Seven that her death will have a permanent negative impact on her eventual husband, Chakotay. That she is attempting to manipulate Seven is obvious, and Seven would have seen that.

That is, the Seven we have known for four years would have seen it. That Seven would have reported the conversation to the captain and probably would have discussed the news of her possible death with her boyfriend, as well. This news, after all, would not be terribly upsetting to her. Everyone on the crew knows that their lives are in constant danger, so it is something they would have come to terms with long ago. Seven would also know that the admiral's future has forever been changed and that her death is hardly etched in stone. In fact, there is no way to know whether the admiral's story is even true--she could be exaggerating or making it up.

However, this isn't the Seven we've known for four years. This is the naive, impressionable ingenue of "Endgame" who reacts in an immature and illogical way. Not only does she take the admiral's news as gospel, she fails to report this manipuation to the captain, and she doesn't discuss the news of her death with the boyfriend. Nope. She just resigns herself to this future and decides unilaterally to break up with her boyfriend. It's something I'd expect Naomi to do, but not Seven of Nine.

You mean the same Seven of Nine that defied capt. Janeways direct orders in "Prey" & "Bliss" because she didn't want to be a willing partispant in her distrustion and the distruction of the Voyager crew. The same Seven that never told anybody the Borg Queen could directly contact her and left Voyager without a word to rejoin the collective inorder to have the Queen leave the ship & crew alone in "Dark Frontier".
The same Seven that kept her own medical well being from Icheb because she did wish for him to worry about loosing her in "Imperfection".

Exactly. It's certainly not the first time Seven's run off half-cocked, nor is she the only one on the ship to have done so in an effort to save someone else from potential harm.

Chakotay, anyone?

And isn't she learning from Janeway, who planned to strand herself in a shuttle rather than put the rest of the crew at risk?

 

[kimc]

Am I the only one in this thread who thinks three dates and one kiss is too soon to call a guy your boyfriend? I prefer the term "guy I'm dating".

 

[teya]

Am I the only one in this thread who thinks three dates and one kiss is too soon to call a guy your boyfriend? I prefer the term "guy I'm dating".

I agree.

However, Seven didn't call Chakotay her boyfriend. AuntKate did. And I got the impression it was another means of infantilizing Seven, by making the relationship seem adolescent.

 

[Brit]

Am I the only one in this thread who thinks three dates and one kiss is too soon to call a guy your boyfriend? I prefer the term "guy I'm dating".

Hear, Hear.

And yes a cat suited female, a costume that shows nothing and reveals everything is seen as a demeaning female caricature to a whole lot of women.

Brit

 

[teya]

Am I the only one in this thread who thinks three dates and one kiss is too soon to call a guy your boyfriend? I prefer the term "guy I'm dating".

Hear, Hear.

And again, *Seven* didn't use the term. Nor did I.

AuntKate did.

And yes a cat suited female, a costume that shows nothing and reveals everything is seen as a demeaning female caricature to a whole lot of women.

But not to all. Catsuits have been part of sci-fi since sci-fi existed.

If Seven was a bimbo, it would be demeaning. But she wasn't.

Nor is Jeri.

 

[Tachyon]

About the catsuit - it does not bother me. I see only little difference between it and Jadzia's Starfleet uniform. Jeri had to wear corset beneath her suit and therefore her boobies looked slightly bigger.

As a relatively young female myself, who does wear relatively tight shirts and tops sometimes, I have been given some nasty looks by other females who don't know me. So yes; I have felt like I have been judged by the way I look and I don't like it. But it happens. But at the same time I refuse anyone telling me what to wear. I refuse to wear "tents" just because I am a female with relatively full chest. And I don't feel like I am demeaning myself and I most certainly don't wear any clothes because of any man. I have my own style and I want to wear clothes that fit. If some random dude (or gal) goes bananas because he sees me having boobies, it is not my problem. Civilized people should overcome their biological instincts publicly, and I cannot help it if evolution has given human females two breats to carry.

Seven did have "I know it all" attitude many times, but she did learn something in the end (usually). But this is a feature I like about her. I like her "I know it all", cold, and almost machine-like behavior. That is my favorite version of the character. Seven in season 7 is something I personally do not appreciate very much. I didn't like her being suddenly an expert of human nature and I most certainly did not like the romantic aspect the writer force-fed me. For me it was a character ruination. Obviously, because I'm a J/Cer, C/7 rubbed me the wrong way. Of course it did, because I personally hoped to see something else! But I hated that Seven/Axum thing too (like the whole UMZ concept in general), and I am not a huge fan of "Someone To Watch Over Me" episode either. That kind of Seven does not work for me. I see Seven too immature for Chakotay and that's that. I didn't need to see Seven to pair up with anyone. She and Tuvok are in the same category for me in that way.

 

[Guy Gardener]

My only problem with the cat suit is that i am angered that they are trying to manipulate me, and saddened that they think that this is the level of complexity they need to express and connive to manipulate me.

I'm insulted.

 

[Brit]

Once again Guy gets it right (although I doubt he was all that insulted LOL), Seven is a "fictional" character. She is constructed to give certain illusions, and whether you like it or not, there is such a thing as a first impression and not only did they put Seven in a cat suit, but even when she was all Borg, her suit showed more curves than had ever been shown on a Borg drone before the appearance of the Queen.

Compare Seven’s first appearance, to the scene in "Best of Both Worlds" where Picard is being lead through the cube just before he was assimilated. The Drone in the front is female and you have to look close to figure that out (yes I’m writing a Borg Queen story and the fact that that drone was female really works in my plot – so I noticed.)

The first Borg drawn to be "sexy" was the Queen in "First Contact", and Seven in "Scorpion" was the second. I have no doubt that Terry Ferrell had to wear a corset (as much as I love Chakotay, I am also pretty sure Robert Beltran had to wear a corset too, they even put two shirts on him during his boxing scenes just so you wouldn't know). Even after the uniform change in "Next Generation" they kept Beverly and Deanna in some variation of a cat suit, and continued to do that in the movies.

The only reason, Kate Mulgrew didn't wear the "starfleet bra" that was supposed to push them high, was because she tricked Braga into saying she looked good when she was wearing her own bra, It was supposed to be pretty uncomfortable and I heard she left the thing on his desk.

Just because cat suits are a part of "Science Fiction" forever, still doesn't make it right. As Teya, has been so quick to point out when a generalization is used that doesn't fit her particular view point, not all women are alike and there are very few of us that would be comfortable let alone look ok in one. In fact I'll go even further, the only woman in Trek that actually looked good in a cat suit from all angles was Nana Visitor (and maybe Denise Crosby was a close runner up.) There is a reason that Jeri Ryan, Gates McFadden, and Marina Sirtis are not filmed from certain angles.

Trek has used what Jacqueline Lichtenberg called "The Tailored Effect" from the beginning. Seven of Nine in a catsuit is a Tailored Effect. I think the problem was that the character gave out two very different and confusing messages, one being the "I'm an innocent, childhood deprived, rescued Borg Drone." and the other "I'm a sexy, fully functional female."

The conflict between the two impressions could have been the spring board for a lot of good stories, it was never used. Thus the "over used, but under utilized" perception of Seven of Nine was born in a lot of fans' minds. As my daughter has just pointed out, they blatantly ignored the most interesting part of her. It isn't any wonder that there are so many different reactions.

Brit

 

[propita]

Yes, and as you said you start out by dating. You don't dive into a serious relationship right off the bat.

Not everyone starts out with a lot of dating.

I dated guy1 one date--he offered to "help" me with my "virginity problem". Guy2 for two dates--very nice guy but not right for me.

All this time (a few months), I was "attracted" to Guy3. Was that a crush? Was it love? I don't know--I hadn't had much experience. It felt like love--whatever I thought that felt like at the time. We finally went out.

We've been together 22 yrs.

 

[AuntKate]

Wow. The parsing around here is something else. Let's look at AuntKate's diction and beat her over the head with it.

I live and work in academia where the "I, me, my" of writing is frowned upon and what a person writes is assumed to be his/her opinion and reality. I had no idea that using the word "reality" would in some way mean that no one else could think differently (I didn't imagine I had that much power). Forgive me. Where I say "reality," please put "my" in front of it. And, for good measure, since Seven never called him boyfriend, whenever I say boyfriend, add a space--boy friend. Better?

The claim has been made that Seven is ready for a serious relationship in Endgame and that she has an "equal" relationship with her boy friend. My point is that she isn't all that mature. She's still not behaving the way a mature crew member would (reporting the admiral's attempt to manipulate her to the captain). Thanks, Exodus, for pointing out the other times she has behaved this way in the past. She really hasn't progressed much, has she? My other point is that she's not treating Chakotay as an equal (failing to discuss her fears with him before making a unilateral decision). She doesn't say she thinks they should break up--it's a done deal.

SEVEN: I'd prefer it if you didn't speak to me as though we're on intimate terms.
CHAKOTAY: We are on intimate terms.
SEVEN: Not anymore.
CHAKOTAY: What the hell is going on?
SEVEN: I've decided to alter the parameters of our relationship.

In fact, I think she is very much out of character when in the "dating mode." IMNSHO, I don't have to attempt to make the relationship look adolescent when it already is.

I like Seven of Nine, but I like her better before Endgame. I think she is probably THE most interesting character in all of Trek, and I much prefer to leave her as she was. However, I do wish that they had taken her out of the provocative clothing. It might be a "tradition" in scifi (and Trek), but I think its time has passed, and good riddance.

Did someone say Jeri is a bimbo?