Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

[15wss]

Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.

Assuming that this is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate *universe*, that the Narada and the Jellyfish both crossed into. (It would certainly explain a few things, such as the look of the Kelvin, the differing stardate system, etc.)

Thus, the prime timeline we all know and love is doubly protected.

I like that one the best. It would be nice if Spock had said as much. That while the technology and ship designs were different, enough remained the same time for him to adapt and recognize it, like Scotty and Kirk.

I thought Kirk (or someone else?) realizing that their universe is probably the alternate universe pretty much reassured me that the original timeline is preserved, even if it's another universe. I kept thinking that there was going to be a course correction, but came to realize and decided to accept that our beloved timeline will always be ours; the new future is just going to be a little different.

 

[Captain Zog]

Parallel Universe

Am I the only one who considers Trek XI to take place in a parallel universe from the get go? I look at it like this:

Spock and Nero travel to a parallel universe, where Nero alters the history of this universe.

Simple.

 

[Extrocomp]

I've read the Orci interview and I'm annoyed. Orci basically says that he knows that his story contradicts a lot of other Star Trek time travel stories but it's their own fault that they don't conform to the best current scientific theory. In other words he's pissing on everything that came before while still trying to pretend that his movie is merely an alternate timeline and not a true reboot. He tries to justify his view by citing the episode 'Parallels', even though that episode had absolutely nothing to do with time travel. It was about travelling to already-existing quantum realities (parallel universes).

The best current scientific theory says a lot of things. It also says that faster-than-light travel is impossible and that alien life is extremely rare. Star Trek has never been about hard science and therefore hard science should never be used as an excuse to contradict well-known stories that take place in the same series. If time travel merely creates parallel timelines, then all the hard work and epic battles to repair changes in the timeline were a waste of time. In some episodes, the main characters sacrifice their lives in order to undo their timeline and restore the original one.

I have several possible theories about how the old timeline relates to the new timeline.

1. The old timeline no longer exists because Nero went back in time and changed it, and the changes were never repaired. That's how it worked in 'The City on the Edge of Forever', 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and 'First Contact'. Just because you can still watch the DVDs, doesn't mean the original timeline hasn't been destroyed. I can still read pre-Crisis Superman comics.

2. Most of the time, when you go to the past and change something, the changes affect your own timeline. But on rare occasions, changing the past spawns a parallel timeline. It's just an unusual quirk in reality.

3. Instead of simply travelling back in time, Nero travelled back in time AND into an already-existing parallel universe. This so-called 'diagonal time travel' has already happened once in Star Trek: the Defiant in 'In a Mirror Darkly'. In my opinion, this is the best explanation because it explains why all the technology looks completely different. Nero destroying the USS Kelvin doesn't explain that at all.

The end of the comic 'Countdown' shows Picard and Data talking immediately after Spock disappeared, which implies that the original timeline remains, but the only definitive proof will be if there's a story in the original timeline that takes place after Nero and Spock went back in time.

 

[Extrocomp]

Re: Parallel Universe

I agree with you, I just wrote a post on another thread where I proposed this theory. It's the only one that really makes any sense.

EDIT: I wrote this post before the threads were combined. Just, um, ignore this post.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Parallel Universe

Am I the only one who considers Trek XI to take place in a parallel universe from the get go?

No, I don't think you are.

I look at it like this:

Spock and Nero travel to a parallel universe, where Nero alters the history of this universe.

Simple.

We've already got an active (and parallel) "alternate universe" discussion thread, so I'll merge this one with that. Please remain parallel for the operation...

 

[James Bond]

Re: Parallel Universe

I think that the timeline in Star Trek IS the Prime timeline, and that it has been changed (some of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY as we knew them wiped out ie. a reboot) by the events of the movie; but the producers were forced to throw in the stuff about "alternate timelines" in order to appease the canon freaks and prevent mass suicides.

 

[Extrocomp]

Star Trek Online is going with the idea that the original timeline still exists. I'm not sure if an online RPG counts though.

 

[Deks]

Star Trek Online is going with the idea that the original timeline still exists. I'm not sure if an online RPG counts though.

Games aren't considered canon ... although it provides an intriguing continuation of what came after the new movie as it capitalizes on the premise that Spock actually went into another reality.

Plus I am still of an opinion that Star Trek might very well be happening in the 'original' time-line as we knew it ... it was merely changed by Nero's actions.
I also see Uhura's 'alternate reality' as an explanation that their reality now became something different from when it used to be ... merely confirming what nuSpock said.

 

[slappy]

I maintain that the drama in The Voyage Home or "Endgame", and the universe in general, comes from the idea that there's only one timeline and set of characters that can be changed, otherwise there's no point in trying to change, or prevent changes to, the past.

In that case, your beloved characters have already lost.

When something goes back in time to a place it wasn't meant to be, things are different. Forever. It doesn't matter if the bad guy is stopped or the evil plot is foiled because the damage is already done. You're just rooting for the least amount of damage anyway.

According to your idea, the only thing there is to care about is that everything just goes back to the way it was, which it can't.

Where is the suspense, the emotional investment, the importance in multiple timelines? You're not in your universe and nothing you do will change a thing that happens there. You're totally somewhen else and will never get back. Okay Nero is a man obsessed with revenge and he doesn't care that he's not at home any more he still gets to kill some Vulcans. His motive doesn't change. Spock didn't go willingly back in time and he'll still do what he can to prevent mass murder. But here's me saying, "You're telling me I have an escape clause to ignore this movie if I want, that I can choose not to accept it as some form of canon and discard its events as irrelevant to my beloved history"? Stupid writer right there who removes any stakes he might have created.

IMO you're looking at it wrong. It's the perception of the situation that matters.

Things like timeline changes, scientific technicalities, and quantum theory have nothing to do with whether or not the stakes are there. To me it's a matter of "how close are you to where you were". When the transporter scrambles Spock's molecules and reassembles them in a reasonably accurate facsimile of the pattern they were in, you don't all of a sudden go "Aw man, that's not the real Spock" and turn off the TV do you?

Even further, would you stop loving your mother if you thought about the fact that most the cells in her body have died and been replaced with new ones and that she's not the same person she was when you were 8? Of course not.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Where is the suspense, the emotional investment, the importance in multiple timelines? You're not in your universe and nothing you do will change a thing that happens there.

When Kirk and crew went to the Mirror Universe (another alternate reality), they cared about the Halkans, and Kirk did not want Mirror-Spock to die, even though their actions there had no effect on their own universe.

It doesn't matter what alternate universe you are in -- your motivations and values don't change.

Would Nero have acted differently if the black hole had dumped him in the Mirror Universe? Or would he still be attacking Mirror-Vulcan, and forcing Mirror-Spock to watch?

 

[Creedence]

Where is the suspense, the emotional investment, the importance in multiple timelines? You're not in your universe and nothing you do will change a thing that happens there. You're totally somewhen else and will never get back. Okay Nero is a man obsessed with revenge and he doesn't care that he's not at home any more he still gets to kill some Vulcans. His motive doesn't change. Spock didn't go willingly back in time and he'll still do what he can to prevent mass murder. But here's me saying, "You're telling me I have an escape clause to ignore this movie if I want, that I can choose not to accept it as some form of canon and discard its events as irrelevant to my beloved history"? Stupid writer right there who removes any stakes he might have created. It doesn't matter anyway because Orci is functionally wrong.

Here's why:
We will never again, (how much you wanna bet?) EVER (how much??) see another movie or series set in the old universe. "Prime" now exists solely in the imagination of the fanboy. A good place for it too since there are many imaginitive people here alone.

However you want to add it up, Prime is gone and Nu is here to stay.

PS QM justifications for multiple realities is such a stretch, really. Quantum particles don't care when or where they are or where they're going, and according to Heisenberg, particles only have the potential to be different(=alternate) until we observe them anyhow and then they're real and they're here.

Done my rant. Don't expect I'll change anyone's mind and please, don't try to change mine. I choose to care about Nu instead.

That was AWESOME! NuTrek FTW!

 

[Creedence]

Re: Parallel Universe

I think that the timeline in Star Trek IS the Prime timeline, and that it has been changed (some of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY as we knew them wiped out ie. a reboot) by the events of the movie; but the producers were forced to throw in the stuff about "alternate timelines" in order to appease the canon freaks and prevent mass suicides.

Could be and that suits me just fine. Relegating all that came before nuTrek to oblivion is really OK with me. I will still enjoy all that material but, hopefully, NONE of those stories will ever be revisited. Even my 13-year-old son knows it's foolish to remake the Wrath of Khan.

 

[Jax]

I wish the writers would of addressed the issue properly on screen with clear writing because Spock says Alternative Universe but the way the plot is written it all indicates Spock just meant there universe have been changed and not the spinoff Universe theory that the Orci hinted at offscreen. Orci and the other one should of done better in that area but IMO The Prime Universe history has been wiped and replaced but I think time finds a way to get back on track and events will still happen close to what we know unless we see reboots of TNG in future of course.

But if the spinoff Universe idea works for you fine.

 

[xman]

That was AWESOME! NuTrek FTW!

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

 

[npsf3000]

Instead of simply travelling back in time, Nero travelled back in time AND into an already-existing parallel universe. This so-called 'diagonal time travel' has already happened once in Star Trek: the Defiant in 'In a Mirror Darkly'. In my opinion, this is the best explanation because it explains why all the technology looks completely different. Nero destroying the USS Kelvin doesn't explain that at all.

This is the worst explanation because it removes any attachment to this universe - because its just another parallel universe - if things go bad go to another one.

"all the technology looks completely different"

Two explinations.

A)
This is the 21st century, things have to progress for the show to be realistic, how come TOS looks outdated even though its set in the future?.

B)
Time is a Dimension, if your going to allow time travel then your going to have to come to grips with the fact that things in the future can effect the past. (Think 2d pond and stone thrown into it, the ripples travel out both ways, not just one).

 

[Creedence]

Time is a Dimension, if your going to allow time travel then your going to have to come to grips with the fact that things in the future can effect the past. (Think 2d pond and stone thrown into it, the ripples travel out both ways, not just one).

That is one of the coolest explanations I've ever heard for why the "past" invariably looks different from recorded history when people from the "future" visit it.