Founders & Faces

[Ketracel]

I was thinking about the funny mask face of the founders. At first we're told that Odo has 'trouble with faces'... which is really hard to believe since he has no difficulty with the face of any other creature he becomes.

Then the other 'Founders' all have similar faces... even though we know that they have no trouble with faces since they can assume the guise of humans in full and do so on many occasions. As well as Klingons of course.

Then there is the case of Laas who is an extremely adept changeling, capable of taking almost any shape, including mist. And you're telling me even he has 'trouble with faces'?!?!

Now, I know this was all really about differentiating Odo and instantly giving him a 'race' face the way Star Trek has done for all races. For example, Bajorans have funny wrinkles, etc.

But wouldn't it have been better, dramatically speaking, to have changelings appear 100% human? The way Cylons do? That way you always have the eery feeling of not being sure who is really a founder.

For example, when the 'female' founder could have been played by several actors or by the same, but appearing as just human. This would have reinforced the idea that they could be anywhere and anything.

All in all, I think it was a lost opportunity to step out of the Star Trek mold of 'faces'.

 

[od0_ital]

Laas didn't have a standard Founder face. I assume he had the appearance of the people that were on the planet he wound up on.

The Founders were able to "see" Odo as he approached the Great Link, and assumed a similiar appearance to put him at ease, since he was one of the Hundred.

The eerie part is knowin' that the Founders can be anyone - I wouldn't have to see them as normal to know they could be. That they refused to conform to an entirely human or Klingon or Romulan or whatever appearance just made 'em creepier.

As for Odo bein' able to make the face of any animal...you're judgin' that by knowledge of how an animal looks to us (it helps they used real ones, I guess), but we don't know how Odo as a bird or rat would look to the real version of that bird or rat. Maybe something was "off" about him in any form?

 

[Too Much Fun]

The Founders were able to "see" Odo as he approached the Great Link, and assumed a similiar appearance to put him at ease, since he was one of the Hundred.

I think the person who started this thread makes a really good point that I never realized and this bit I've quoted could (unintentionally) support it. I can understand the female changeling resembling Odo when he first sees her just to prove to him how alike they are (I can look just like you, which is something no else can do, because that's how close we are meant to be), but there was no reason for her to keep looking like that after.

It just seemed to be an illogical tactic by the creators of the show to make the Founders just another recognizable race who all look relatively similar make-up wise, like Jem'hadar, Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, etc. Las himself would probably object to that and say, "why don't we just make ourselves look as different from each other as possible, since we can"?

 

[Navaros]

No, the Founders should not have had 100% human faces. In fact, they should not look like humanoids at all since they hate humanoids vehemently. Having said that, that is in no way an endorsement of how they fubared this factor badly in the show. What they did in the show is just as bad as the suggestion in the OP. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that the Founders always take the form of humanoids even though they hate them vehmently.

There is is no way to explain this away in any way that is reasonable. Some fans try to make excuses like 'they do it to make Odo more comfortable'...yet that makes no sense because they still look like humanoids which they hate vehemently 24/7 even when Odo is nowhere around.

Bottomline is that TPTB felt the need to dumb down the show in this regard so as to 'not confuse' viewers. But really, that is selling the audience short, and the intergrity of the show suffers a lot for it. I rank this as one of the top 5 fubars of the series, almost up there with the Dukat fubar at the end of Waltz and on.

 

[od0_ital]

^

The Female Founder was the only other one we saw, aside from Odo, on a regular basis.

She had to interact with the Vorta, the Jem'Hadar, and later the Cardassians & Breen, on a pretty regular basis. Which would be easier, to have those interactions be between alien-oids and a voice comin' from a puddle of goo in a mop bucket, or for her to assume the form, so that she could move freely through whatever ship or buildin' she was usin' as her headquarters and give orders left & right?

Yeah, she and every other Founder hate Solids...but, in the interest of makin' it easier to destroy that which she and every other Founder hated, she took on their basic form.

 

[Anwar]

The Founders used to be Solids themselves, I think their "Putty Face" look is the default look for a Changling to assume when they try for a humanoid form. It's in their DNA when they think "humanoid solid" and perhaps a holdover from their Normal Solid days. That's why they all look like that when they go to "default" Solid form before turning to goo.

Odo may have just accidentally accessed that form and assumed that it was because he couldn't get a better look in his head.

 

[od0_ital]

^

Laas had a funky forehead in his "natural" state, so that idea doesn't really hold.

 

[Red Ranger]

This thread does remind me of something else, though. Before Salome Jens played the lead Founder, she was the mysterious proto-humanoid that revealed how they encoded their pattern on worlds all over the galaxy in the TNG ep The Chase -- explaining why there were so many bipedal humanoids in the galaxy. Could the Founders be more directly related to that race, as they had similar types of faces (well, one of them anyway) like Odo? -- RR

 

[Anwar]

I like to think that the Founders are one of the first races to emerge from the Progenitors' seeding.

 

[Da'an]

I like to think that the Progenitors were the species that actually evolved into the Founders.

 

[Ketracel]

No, the Founders should not have had 100% human faces. In fact, they should not look like humanoids at all since they hate humanoids vehemently.

Ah, but you've totally missed it. As the female founder said to Odo:

"To become a thing is to know a thing. To assume its form is to begin to understand its existence."

Do you think that the founders would deny themselves that deeper knowledge of their foes?

Beyond this important reason, what better way to intimidate and creep us out than to appear completely human?

 

[Anwar]

Dude, it's Navaros. Don't try to reason with it .

Anywho, yes the Founders actions and appearances make 100% sense. Sure it would've saved money to make them just be normal humans but Trek doesn't need to cut back like that.

 

[Bisz]

I have no real problem with the way it was done on the show.

The Founders should NOT have perfect human faces, or perfect anything faces. They are individuals (sometimes) after all so its not like they would pick some shmuck human and adopt his/her apperance permanently, nor do they care enough about appearances to come up with their own unique perfect looking human face. A head with 2 eyes, a nose, a mouth, 2 ears, done!

The next point that was brought up... why would they ever choose to look humanoid? Someone already answered that. If you want to interact with humanoids, if you want them to not react with instant fear and aggression, if you want to control them... they you will present them with an apperance that they can relate to. The Founders are always shown in the Great Link when not interacting with humanoids, so this makes sense.

 

[Smiley]

It was very effective seeing a Founder played by Colm Meaney in "Paradise Lost." I think there could have been more creativity shown in portraying the Founders. Then again, they are portrayed as rigid in their philosophy in contrast to their physiology.

 

[Triskelion]

Bashir almost created an interplanetary incident by tossing a rock into the Great Link.

The Founders took on recognizeable forms to deal with the main players of the Solids. The Solids, considerately created something that could interact with the Founders - a virus. Same strategy.

It would have been cool if the main Founder had been played by a bunch of different actors! But confusing. I always thought she reminded me of the Progenitor - I didn't know it was actually her! Next thing you know you'll be telling me Martok was Laas or some damn thing.

 

[Captain Fine]

The Founders used to be Solids themselves, I think their "Putty Face" look is the default look for a Changling to assume when they try for a humanoid form. It's in their DNA when they think "humanoid solid" and perhaps a holdover from their Normal Solid days. That's why they all look like that when they go to "default" Solid form before turning to goo.

Odo may have just accidentally accessed that form and assumed that it was because he couldn't get a better look in his head.

I think this is the best explanation I've ever heard for it, and somewhere along the lines of what I've always thought, although I've never quite articulated it.

You know, I wish they'd actually said this in the show. It would have made it far more believable to me.

 

[Myasishchev]

I like to think that the Progenitors were the species that actually evolved into the Founders.

I like this. A little too convenient, maybe, but it has some wicked irony.

 

[Anwar]

Eh, I just go for the theory that they were one of the first races to evolve from the Progenitor seeding. Otherwise they'd be far more advanced by the time of DS9 if they were billions of years old by then.

 

[Myasishchev]

Eh, I just go for the theory that they were one of the first races to evolve from the Progenitor seeding. Otherwise they'd be far more advanced by the time of DS9 if they were billions of years old by then.

Advanced? Dudes can violate conservation of matter and energy with their bodies.

 

[Destructor]

I was always under the impression that the Founders, being perfectly aware of Odo long before he showed up, intentionally took a form similar to him in order to seem appealing to him, to encourage him to come home. Makes sense to me. If Laas had shown up first, they would have come out of the great link looking like Laas.