Who is the longest incarnation?

[Starkers]

Yes, Who is the longest incarnation...

(Oh come on someone was gonna do it!)

Cap, 8 could have regenerated into 9 during the war I guess. That said whilst the infostamp issue does muddy the waters somewhat, I still go with 9 being new regenerated in Rose. The mirror scene is throwaway but does seem to indicate 9 isn't that old (although who knows maybe he never found the time to check a mirror what with all the fighting!)

It's eminently possible that 8 fought most of the timewar, but that he was killed and regenerated near the end, and thus it was 9 who comitted the final act and wiped both the Daleks and the Timelords out. There would still have been time for Daleks to see 9 and make records of him before being imprisoned in the genesis arc...ok timewise it's tight, but wibbly wobbly and all that

 

[The]

Of course, a speculative answer to this question depends in large part on which of the Doctor's adventures one takes under consideration. If one goes strictly by the original TV series, the 1996 telefilm, and the current TV series, then one might arrive at different conclusions than the ones upthread.

Which is exactly why I specifically stated televised. Doctor Who is the television show, both Classic and Modern, and the 'great link' McGann TVM. That's all I consider, and all I asked in the original post.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Which is exactly why I specifically stated televised. Doctor Who is the television show, both Classic and Modern, and the 'great link' McGann TVM. That's all I consider, and all I asked in the original post.

In that case, you can't make any sort of determination. The only certainty is that the first Doctor (again, ignoring "The Brain of Morbius" and the pre-Hartnell Doctors) probably lived to about 450.

You don't know how old the seventh Doctor lived to be. You don't know anything about the eighth Doctor's lifespan. You know that the ninth Doctor (per "The Next Doctor"; you don't even need to take into account RTD's authorial intent) fought the Time War, but that's it.

 

[The]

We have no idea how long the ninth Doctor existed, but he's been around a while; he's the one that fought the Time War.

I disagree with this.

His actions in Rose indicate that he's most likely very recently regenerated.

Either that or he's not been around any mirrors in several years.

You can disagree with it, but you'd be wrong.

The common fan theory is that the eighth Doctor fought the Time War and that he regenerated either in its climax or shortly thereafter, leading into "Rose."

This, however, isn't workable for two reasons.

First, it's not what RTD intended.

Second, "The Next Doctor" makes that chain of events impossible.

Let's examine both.

First, RTD's authorial intent. As is now well-known, the eight-to-nine regeneration was supposed to happen in Doctor Who Magazine's "The Flood." It was planned and scripted and approved. The reason it didn't happen is that DWM wasn't allowed to tell the post-regeneration story. McGann would become Eccleston, but the story of what happened after wouldn't be told. RTD wanted the ninth Doctor to only appear with Rose; plans for the ninth Doctor to appear with Destrii were scrapped.

To quote RTD himself:

That new story will, sadly -- look, I'm sorry! -- have to find a way to park Destrii. I'm sure you will come back to her. And as he finally regenerates, beautifully coinciding with our transmission date, the Ninth Doctor sails off.

And wham, next month, there he is with Rose. We skipped a war. We'll come back to it...

RTD was well aware of what he was doing to the comics. Likewise, he was well aware that sometime after the regeneration, the Time War happened. If you read the "Flood Barriers" essay in The Flood, the conclusion is inescapable -- the Time War happened to the ninth Doctor, not the eighth.

Second, "The Next Doctor."

The Cybermen received the Infostamps from the Daleks in the Void. These Daleks were placed there during the Time War as a trojan horse ("Doomsday"). As the Infostamp had an image of the ninth Doctor, it stands to reason that the pre-Time War (or Time War-era) Daleks had encountered the ninth Doctor. At the very least, the ninth Doctor existed and was known to the Daleks during the time during the Time War when the Cult of Skaro Daleks were placed into the Void.

Either way you cut it -- authorial intent, the evidence of "The Next Doctor" -- the ninth Doctor had an existence prior to "Rose." And he fought the Time War.

First of all, the comic strip is not part of the televised universe. Thus, no matter if Shakespeare himself came back from the grave to write the definitive origin of The Doctor for the DWMagazine, if it's not on the screen, then it simply doesn't exist. Thus, your argument has no relevance to the fact that the 9th Doctor's mirror-scene in Rose insinuates point-blank that he just regenerated. Whether that means at the end of the Time War, because of the end of the Time War, or even during the Time War, no one...not me, and not you...can definitively state who fought the Time War. Know why? Because it's never been written, and we've never seen it on screen.

Second, your guessing and assumptions about the Infostamp are exactly that. I can just as easily guess the Daleks released into the world made connection with the internet, Torchwood's databases, etc. There's a million different reasons why they had the 9th Doctor's picture in their infostamps.

Finally, stating your opinion as fact because you wish to support your personal "unified theory" fanfic-verse adds nothing of merit to the conversation, and can be construed as incredibly insulting to others willing enough to have an open mind on all possibilities.

Back to the subject:

Speaking of all televised adventures, anyone want to hazard a guess at how long the 5th Doctor was around? Given he was almost constantly with mortal companions...and unless the TARDIS bleeds off their ages....wouldn't the 5th have come and gone pretty quickly?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Of course, a speculative answer to this question depends in large part on which of the Doctor's adventures one takes under consideration. If one goes strictly by the original TV series, the 1996 telefilm, and the current TV series, then one might arrive at different conclusions than the ones upthread.

To quote Lance Parkin, "The books are canon, in the way the term is commonly defined."

how do you explain that the Ninth Doctor was 'born in war' then allyn?

It depends on if the tenth Doctor speaking literally or metaphorically. Many people who have lived through war and tragedy can be said to have been "born in war" as that's the element that shaped their lives. It's a common trope in literature, for instance.

So did the Doctor mean that he regenerated during (or because of) the Time War, or did the Doctor mean that the ninth Doctor's personality and life were shaped by the events of the Time War? Or is it something of both? As my friend TerriO has said on a number of occasions, the ninth Doctor is the poster child for PTSD, which implies to me more the latter than the former; the former would, essentially, wipe the slate clean, while the latter implies that the ninth Doctor's personality is shaped by the burdens that he's carried and the horrors that he's seen.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Finally, stating your opinion as fact because you wish to support your personal "unified theory" fanfic-verse adds nothing of merit to the conversation, and can be construed as incredibly insulting to others willing enough to have an open mind on all possibilities.

So, because I have an expansive view that encompasses the series, the novels, the comics, and the audios of the Doctor Who universe, I'm narrow-minded?

While you, who limit yourself to the televised adventures only, have "an open mind"?

Wow. Talk about your Orwellian Newspeak.

 

[The]

Finally, stating your opinion as fact because you wish to support your personal "unified theory" fanfic-verse adds nothing of merit to the conversation, and can be construed as incredibly insulting to others willing enough to have an open mind on all possibilities.

So, because I have an expansive view that encompasses the series, the novels, the comics, and the audios of the Doctor Who universe, I'm narrow-minded?

While you, who limit yourself to the televised adventures only, have "an open mind"?

Wow. Talk about your Orwellian Newspeak.

It has nothing to do with what you, personally, believe. It has to do with you insisting on forcing those views on others as fact. You presenting your pet theories is one thing. I can indulge or ignore you at will. But, when you become argumentative about this stuff is when it becomes a problem.

Bottom line: You know know nothing more about the Time War, and the facts concerning the death of the 8th/birth of the 9th, than anyone else who has seen every episode of the show. Comic strips, novels, audios...I love them all. But, the main crux of the franchise is the televisual medium. The birthplace of the entire thing. And trying to change that through sheer force of preferential denial only serves in alienating yourself from those trying to carry on a normal conversation about the subject...

 

[Chaos Descending]

It has nothing to do with what you, personally, believe. It has to do with you insisting on forcing those views on others as fact. You presenting your pet theories is one thing. I can indulge or ignore you at will. But, when you become argumentative about this stuff is when it becomes a problem.

Bottom line: You know know nothing more about the Time War, and the facts concerning the death of the 8th/birth of the 9th, than anyone else who has seen every episode of the show. Comic strips, novels, audios...I love them all. But, the main crux of the franchise is the televisual medium. The birthplace of the entire thing. And trying to change that through sheer force of preferential denial only serves in alienating yourself from those trying to carry on a normal conversation about the subject...

This.

 

[Garth Rockett]

how do you explain that the Ninth Doctor was 'born in war' then allyn?

It depends on if the tenth Doctor speaking literally or metaphorically. Many people who have lived through war and tragedy can be said to have been "born in war" as that's the element that shaped their lives. It's a common trope in literature, for instance.

So did the Doctor mean that he regenerated during (or because of) the Time War, or did the Doctor mean that the ninth Doctor's personality and life were shaped by the events of the Time War? Or is it something of both?

I tend to believe it's something of both. I think it's clear that Ninth Doctor fought in the Time War to at least some extent, given the previously mentioned onscreen evidence. While the Tenth Doctor's line about "born in war" might have been meant purely metaphorically, the context in which he used it was in drawing a parallel between the Ninth Doctor and Metacrisis Doctor, who was literally born during conflict with the Daleks. This suggests to me both meanings of "born in war" are in view when Ten describes Nine.

I think Eight was around when the War started. At some point, possibly early in the war, possibly late, he regenerated into Nine. Nine was the one that destroyed both the Daleks and the Time Lords. It seems to me to best fit what we know.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

It has nothing to do with what you, personally, believe. It has to do with you insisting on forcing those views on others as fact. You presenting your pet theories is one thing. I can indulge or ignore you at will. But, when you become argumentative about this stuff is when it becomes a problem.

Facts are facts, whether you like them or not. *shrug*

Bottom line: You know know nothing more about the Time War, and the facts concerning the death of the 8th/birth of the 9th, than anyone else who has seen every episode of the show.

I never said I knew more. The evidence of RTD's authorial intent is there. The evidence of "The Next Doctor" is there. I'm not sure why these facts would be in dispute.

Comic strips, novels, audios...I love them all. But, the main crux of the franchise is the televisual medium. The birthplace of the entire thing.

No disagreement.

And trying to change that through sheer force of preferential denial only serves in alienating yourself from those trying to carry on a normal conversation about the subject...

I thought we were having a normal conversation.

 

[The]

Allyn, I'm not going to pursue an argument with you. If you cannot see the clear distinction between your pet theories versus the indisputable authority of the TV show taking precedence, then there is no discussion to be had between us...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm not having an argument. You're the one who called me "narrow-minded." *shrug*

And as I said upstream, if you limit yourself entirely to the television series, you can make absolutely no determination about which incarnation lived the longest. It could be One, Eight, or Nine. We simply cannot tell.

Does that answer your question?

 

[danjamesb]

The common fan theory is that the eighth Doctor fought the Time War and that he regenerated either in its climax or shortly thereafter, leading into "Rose."

This, however, isn't workable for two reasons. [...]

First, RTD's authorial intent. As is now well-known, the eight-to-nine regeneration was supposed to happen in Doctor Who Magazine's "The Flood." It was planned and scripted and approved. The reason it didn't happen is that DWM wasn't allowed to tell the post-regeneration story. McGann would become Eccleston, but the story of what happened after wouldn't be told. RTD wanted the ninth Doctor to only appear with Rose; plans for the ninth Doctor to appear with Destrii were scrapped.

I wouldn't say that was RTD's "authorial intent". At all.

RTD (to use Clay Hickman's words) "gave them the opportunity" to do it; offered it as an interesting and exciting story beat for the comic strip to run with. At no point did he state that the Ninth Doctor fighting the Time War was his "authorial intent", at no point did he state his definitive version of events to DWM; he merely offered them something which he knew wouldn't be shown on TV, and which would be a bit of a coup for the comic strip cos he'd enjoyed it so much as a reader.

Even if it was his "authorial intent", these things can change. His original plan for Torchwood Series Two was for Ianto to be shot in Reset, to return in Dead Man Walking, and die definitively in Exit Wounds alongside Tosh. That was his "authorial intent". Plans changed, though, and Owen took Ianto's place. And since that concrete version of events overrode the original idea, his initial "authorial intent" counts for fuck-all.

Similarly, since the comic strip ultimately didn't show the regeneration, and the most recent suggestion we've had about the Doctor who fought the Time War ("born in war", Journey's End) suggests that the Ninth Doctor regenerated during the fighting, I think it's fair to assume that - whatever Russell's first thoughts might have been, back in 2004 - the current "authorial intent" is that Paul McGann's Doctor fought the Time War.

The Cybermen received the Infostamps from the Daleks in the Void. These Daleks were placed there during the Time War as a trojan horse ("Doomsday"). As the Infostamp had an image of the ninth Doctor, it stands to reason that the pre-Time War (or Time War-era) Daleks had encountered the ninth Doctor. At the very least, the ninth Doctor existed and was known to the Daleks during the time during the Time War when the Cult of Skaro Daleks were placed into the Void.

You're placing far too much importance on a scene which was essentially a quick gag.

RTD's script for The Next Doctor stated that the infostamp would project images of just the Tenth Doctor. Someone else (Julie Gardner, IIRC) suggested including all ten Doctors, as a nice fan-pleasing moment. That sequence is a bit of quick, mindless fanwank - it's not some kind of mythology-clarifying moment of revelation. I don't think we can glean anything meaningful from a few throwaway seconds.

 

[Brendan Moody]

It's also possible, as far as I can recall, that one of the Daleks during the Battle of Canary Wharf "downloaded the Internet" or something similar, and gleaned information about the ninth Doctor that way, and then passed that information on to the Daleks once they were back in the Void. It's a stretch, perhaps, but if you want to explain away the scene while still having the eighth Doctor fight in the Time War, it'll do.

 

[Starkers]

Of course, a speculative answer to this question depends in large part on which of the Doctor's adventures one takes under consideration. If one goes strictly by the original TV series, the 1996 telefilm, and the current TV series, then one might arrive at different conclusions than the ones upthread.

To quote Lance Parkin, "The books are canon, in the way the term is commonly defined."

how do you explain that the Ninth Doctor was 'born in war' then allyn?

It depends on if the tenth Doctor speaking literally or metaphorically. Many people who have lived through war and tragedy can be said to have been "born in war" as that's the element that shaped their lives. It's a common trope in literature, for instance.

So did the Doctor mean that he regenerated during (or because of) the Time War, or did the Doctor mean that the ninth Doctor's personality and life were shaped by the events of the Time War? Or is it something of both? As my friend TerriO has said on a number of occasions, the ninth Doctor is the poster child for PTSD, which implies to me more the latter than the former; the former would, essentially, wipe the slate clean, while the latter implies that the ninth Doctor's personality is shaped by the burdens that he's carried and the horrors that he's seen.

See I'd always worked on the assumption that 9 was so damaged because he was essentially carrying the burdens of his previous incarnation, essentially he was 8th's guilt and was only redeemed in death, becoming the more obviously doctorish 10.

 

[captcalhoun]

Of course, a speculative answer to this question depends in large part on which of the Doctor's adventures one takes under consideration. If one goes strictly by the original TV series, the 1996 telefilm, and the current TV series, then one might arrive at different conclusions than the ones upthread.

To quote Lance Parkin, "The books are canon, in the way the term is commonly defined."

how do you explain that the Ninth Doctor was 'born in war' then allyn?

It depends on if the tenth Doctor speaking literally or metaphorically. Many people who have lived through war and tragedy can be said to have been "born in war" as that's the element that shaped their lives. It's a common trope in literature, for instance.

So did the Doctor mean that he regenerated during (or because of) the Time War, or did the Doctor mean that the ninth Doctor's personality and life were shaped by the events of the Time War? Or is it something of both? As my friend TerriO has said on a number of occasions, the ninth Doctor is the poster child for PTSD, which implies to me more the latter than the former; the former would, essentially, wipe the slate clean, while the latter implies that the ninth Doctor's personality is shaped by the burdens that he's carried and the horrors that he's seen.

See I'd always worked on the assumption that 9 was so damaged because he was essentially carrying the burdens of his previous incarnation, essentially he was 8th's guilt and was only redeemed in death, becoming the more obviously doctorish 10.

agreed.

although, "i watched it happen! i MADE it happen!" does make one wonder if it was nine who pushed the button so to speak, or if Eight did.

i'd say that the Dcotor's at least 1300 years old but one can't really be sure. other than that 900 years of phone-box travel indicates he's lived 900 years since 'An Unearthly Child'.

 

[Worf2DS9]

although, "i watched it happen! i MADE it happen!" does make one wonder if it was nine who pushed the button so to speak, or if Eight did.

9 saying that though doesn't necessarily mean that 9 did it; he could be referring to when he was 8. Whether he's 9, 8, 4 or 2, he's still the same character. If 10 said something like "I remember one time when I was travelling with Leela...", obviously 10 himself wasn't travelling, but it was still him.

Back to your comment, though, I think it was 9 that did the deed, based on his earnestness when he said it.

 

[captcalhoun]

that was what i meant, really, i just didn't make that clear. he's so venomous when he says it.

 

[wamdue]

for me there is no question, Nine did whatever it was he did as the final act of the Time War.

he feels too deeply about it, for it not to be him.

 

[diankra]

Since the comic strip ultimately didn't show the regeneration

Ultimately, that's the Quoted for Fact point.

On the OP's point, then definitely Hartnell, who probably reached 440-ish. Even if you count in all the off-screen stuff, McGann doesn't quite match that.
Then there's the odd one: Troughton onscreen can't account for the next stated age, unless there's 250-odd years of unseen Troughton in season 6b.
Pwertwee is almost certainly the shortest lived incarnation: lucky if he reached 20 years, unless there's a lot of 'solo jaunts' we never saw.
Tom Baker, Peter Davison and Colin Baker together come to about 200 years, if we believe Time and the Rani (Voyage of the Damned contradicts it, but... god, what was Russell thinking of with that line????!!! He's enough of a fan to know how wrong it was!)