The Fist Fights in TOS -- Good or Bad?
- Thread starter Aike
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As a martial arts practitioner, I cringe a lot! Kirk is supposed to be at martial arts (see the judo/sambo like uniforms in Charlie X). But his technique is very sloppy! The "karate chop of death" is very hilarious.
I wonder what the actual effect of that kind of chop to the neck, shoulder, or upper back (also routinely used in Mission: Impossible and probably plenty of other contemporary shows) would be. Probably just "Ow, that hurt."
And yeah, generally the fancy moves Kirk uses work out badly for him. If he hadn't done that showy bounce-off-the-wall move when fighting Thelin in "Journey to Babel," he wouldn't have fallen to the deck and left himself vulnerable to a stabbing. In a real fight, you need to keep your feet firmly planted beneath you. (An exception is in "Space Seed" where Kirk gets his legs around Khan's neck in a stranglehold, which is more credible since he's clinging to the wall grille for support.)
My main problem with the fisticuffs in TOS is that they're often tacked on really gratuitously. For instance, in "Shore Leave," Kirk's best friend McCoy has just apparently been murdered in front of him, and instead of grieving over that, he runs off and has a childish knock-down drag-out with Finnegan that drags on endlessly.
And yeah, generally the fancy moves Kirk uses work out badly for him. If he hadn't done that showy bounce-off-the-wall move when fighting Thelin in "Journey to Babel," he wouldn't have fallen to the deck and left himself vulnerable to a stabbing. In a real fight, you need to keep your feet firmly planted beneath you. (An exception is in "Space Seed" where Kirk gets his legs around Khan's neck in a stranglehold, which is more credible since he's clinging to the wall grille for support.)
My main problem with the fisticuffs in TOS is that they're often tacked on really gratuitously. For instance, in "Shore Leave," Kirk's best friend McCoy has just apparently been murdered in front of him, and instead of grieving over that, he runs off and has a childish knock-down drag-out with Finnegan that drags on endlessly.
Sure, he isn´t Bruce Lee
What do you think of the speed of the fighting and the amount of beating the characters can take?
Isn´t the amount of beating Kirk gets in the bar scene in the movie unrealistic? I think he should have passed out, been injured and probably hospitalized, but the next day he is back on his feet without a scratch.
Obviously, the Gorn suit is outdated today, and Shatner may not be a pro fighter.
However, I have seen elite soliders train in a hot day and it looked more like Arena than The Matrix or the latest film. Ok, I am not talking about techinque, but how much you can stand and how fast you can fight in extreme heat and so on.
My guess is that if they, for instance, filmed US soliders fighting in Iraq most people would find the hand-to-hand combat as well as the shooting cheesy. It doesn´t look or sound like the stuff Hollywood is doing today.
I always saw the fisticuffs in TOS as a result of the "aesthetic" of the time period. Many Western films had barroom fights and characters duking it out, so I tend to see the same thing on Trek as an attempt to live up to a certain expectation of the audience (kind of like how some shows nowadays *have* to have a shaky cam).
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I always thought it was funny in "Trials and Tribbleations" when Bashir tried to fight "Old School" he pulled a muscle...
I completely agree. It is horrible; the other fights in TOS are pretty bad too -- they're more like verbal arguments with some cuddly stroking.
Haven't you ever been in a bar brawl? A few punches and a slam against the table would make your head spin, but not much besides. Certainly not enough to pass out, that is, unless you came down in a really, really unlucky way.
That is true.
Here´s an example of Western fight that is much quicker than the one in Arena. I guess it is also filmed in the Californian desert (or somewhere nearby).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzVRlRCwowQa
No, I haven´t. And I am certain the majority of the posters haven´t so why don´t you tell us about when you were hit three or four times in the head and slammed into a table
Indeed, it should be noted that TOS does promote the view that fisticuffs is a "humane" way to fight, as compared with, say, gunplay or knifeplay. To the contrary, it is likely to leave you disfigured for life, or brain-damaged, or functionally challenged in other ways (say, eating with a straw).
Of course, wonderful 23rd century medicine may alleviate the risks a bit. But if Kirk really wanted to be humane, he might be better off shooting the kneecaps of his opponent with his phaser on boil.
We could always speculate that a major part of the allure of the amusement park planet was its ability to keep the visitors happy - through generous application of airborne chemical agents...
Timo Saloniemi
Of course, wonderful 23rd century medicine may alleviate the risks a bit. But if Kirk really wanted to be humane, he might be better off shooting the kneecaps of his opponent with his phaser on boil.
We could always speculate that a major part of the allure of the amusement park planet was its ability to keep the visitors happy - through generous application of airborne chemical agents...
Timo Saloniemi
This is what a properly placed "neck chop" (commonly referred to as a ridge hand) will get you:
http://www.gorillafights.com/fightvideos/707/karate-instructor-vs.-pimp.html
http://www.gorillafights.com/fightvideos/707/karate-instructor-vs.-pimp.html
You are exactly correct. The fight scenes in TOS are typical of the other TV fight scenes of the day.
Exactly. It is a signature of 1960s action TV.
Actually, yes, realism was exactly the point. Roddenberry's whole goal was to create a series that treated science fiction in a serious, adult manner and brought the same naturalism to a series set in the future as you'd find on any cop, lawyer, or doctor show of the period. But realism is relative, and what constituted realism by '60s TV standards seems more staged and artificial to today's more savvy audiences. And admittedly TOS drifted somewhat away from that initial naturalism over the course of its run.
Ohh, I feel a little unclean that I watched that. I only did it in the name of science. It looked like the effect was to temporarily incapacitate the opponent and leave him unable to move normally for some moments. I'd imagine it could cause some neck and spinal damage and require hospitalization. And clearly it doesn't induce unconsciousness except maybe for a few short moments; the opponent is more dazed and immobilized. I assume the mechanism of injury/incapacitation is the mechanical shock from such a sharp blow.
Plus it has to be delivered in the right place, I assume. The '60s TV-hero action chop tends to be directed all over the place, and any impact around the neck, shoulders, or upper back will cause instant and prolonged unconsciousness in the target. It's also often a very quick, down-and-up chop rather than the decisive wham on that video -- though Kirk himself tended to go for more of a two-handed hammer strike a lot of the time, so at least it looked like it had some force to it, more than Peter Graves' technique on Mission: Impossible, say.
What I found most unrealistic about the fight between Kirk and Khan was how both of them kept changing into completely different people every time the camera switched to a long shot.
And I have often wondered what was the purpose of that plastic rod Kirk pulled out of the control panel to clobber Khan with-- was it there for just such an occasion?
The last time I was watching "Space Seed," my brother summed up the fight scene: "The only reason we're still alive is I knew something about these ships that he didn't."
And I have often wondered what was the purpose of that plastic rod Kirk pulled out of the control panel to clobber Khan with-- was it there for just such an occasion?
The last time I was watching "Space Seed," my brother summed up the fight scene: "The only reason we're still alive is I knew something about these ships that he didn't."
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