How would you have ended "Voyager"?

[Thestral]

How is Avery Brook's objection to be taken as a "black" thing only? There are too many children in this world that have been abandoned by their fathers and they are of every color of humanity. That it's particularly problematic with blacks is beside the point, it's a problem everywhere.

And I do think the fact that Miral Paris was a mixed child makes that abandonment even more distasteful, those children especially need both of their parents.

Brit

Those children as you so acceptingly put it, get on perfectly well, thankyou very much.

(Guessing you're not one of them)

It always annoys me when I read somewhere that a child needs two parents or he or she is doomed for all eternity.

In the 24th Century they're probably more accepting that everyone is different.

Doomed? No, of course not, single-parent household children can be perfectly fine in society and more and more this is a normal thing. But it does make things more difficult, for both the child and the parent, so if possible it is (generally, though every case is unique) better to have both parents if possible; and certainly, it's not cool for a parent to abandon their children if it can be avoided. Though you may not have been saying that, I'm just making sure.

Naomi was raised by one parent, or one hedgehog or a parent and a hedgehog, there's rumours that Sam died at some point in the last few seasons and they forgot to tell us, or a village depending on how you count.

Based on that picture of Scarlett Pomers posted somewhere else (TrekLit maybe?) I'd say she grew up juuust fine. (And after a little digging, I'm very happy to see she beat an eating disorder, that's great to hear! )

 

[exodus]

How is Avery Brook's objection to be taken as a "black" thing only? There are too many children in this world that have been abandoned by their fathers and they are of every color of humanity. That it's particularly problematic with blacks is beside the point, it's a problem everywhere.

True but it hasn't become the stereotype hasn't become the brunt of jokes due to it being so common amoung the Black community. Brookes understands this so he took it upon himself to squash that stereotype within his own show.

If more actors spoke up as he did maybe we wouldn't have such eps. like "Code of Honor", "Up the Long Ladder" & "Tattoo". There is no excuse in this day and age to having stereotypes & racist eps. within Trek or any other show if people like Brookes are willing to stand up and speak out.

 

[teya]

And I do think the fact that Miral Paris was a mixed child makes that abandonment even more distasteful, those children especially need both of their parents.

Brit

Why these children especially?

I'm curious, being mixed race myself.

 

[teya]

How is Avery Brook's objection to be taken as a "black" thing only? There are too many children in this world that have been abandoned by their fathers and they are of every color of humanity. That it's particularly problematic with blacks is beside the point, it's a problem everywhere.

True but it hasn't become the stereotype hasn't become the brunt of jokes due to it being so common amoung the Black community. Brookes understands this so he took it upon himself to squash that stereotype within his own show.

If more actors spoke up as he did maybe we wouldn't have such eps. like "Code of Honor", "Up the Long Ladder" & "Tattoo". There is no excuse in this day and age to having stereotypes & racist eps. within Trek or any other show if people like Brookes are willing to stand up and speak out.

Preach it!

 

[Zameaze]

The end of the series, the beginning of a new adventure.

Janeway orders Worf to serve a restraining order on the Borg. Worf’s Klingon blood begins to boil at always being ordered about. He takes up his bat’leth and disembowels her. The crew throws Worf a party for becoming a true Klingon, and they make him captain. Worf turns the ship around, heads away from earth and looks for a fight. Fade out.

 

[Brit]

And I do think the fact that Miral Paris was a mixed child makes that abandonment even more distasteful, those children especially need both of their parents.

Brit

Why these children especially?

I'm curious, being mixed race myself.

I think that some of the most beautiful children in the world could be called mixed, but then to a certain extent we all are mixed in one way or another.

But children of mixed cultures need to be able to draw on both cultures, because some people are going to group them with one or the other and some equally misguided people are going to try to use the mixing as an excuse to bar them from one group or the other. A child needs to understand the dynamics of both I think.

A single parent can try to give background on both cultures but because of the differences that parent may not be able to convey the nuances of the other culture, and that can be a problem.

I know people that do very well with this kind of background and others that don't do well at all.

I think B'Elanna Torres is a good example of what I'm talking about. She was raised by her Klingon mother, but she was half human. So she spent a good part of her adolescence being visibly different without the human parent to explain what the difference meant. Try as she might, B'Elanna's mother could not teach the meaning of human as well as an active human father could have done. It took a lot of effort on B'Elanna's part to deal with those obstacles and she had to do it essentially alone.

Spock, on the other hand with the same kind of mixed problems growing up, seemed to have a more stable emotional makeup (and yes I know he is half Vulcan) than did B'Elanna. He also had both parents taking an active part in raising him.

Brit

 

[kimc]

But children of mixed cultures need to be able to draw on both cultures, because some people are going to group them with one or the other and some equally misguided people are going to try to use the mixing as an excuse to bar them from one group or the other. A child needs to understand the dynamics of both I think.

A single parent can try to give background on both cultures but because of the differences that parent may not be able to convey the nuances of the other culture, and that can be a problem.

I know people that do very well with this kind of background and others that don't do well at all.

Well I've been doing my best to resist here but as a volunteer for Big Sisters with a mixed-race "little sister" I can't do it anymore...

Whether or not these children end up doing well (avoiding pregnancy, prison, able to support themselves, etc) depends on the adults in their lives. Yes, parental abandonment (particularly by African American men which calling it a stereotype gives a reason to dismiss the problem, imo) is a real problem and a often is a one-way ticket to poverty for women and children.

It would have been interesting to see how Trek characters take care of children who are abandoned (whether by death or a parent who just doesn't want to parent). For the Sisko character they could have really broken stereotypes by not only having him be there for his child but taking in a child that didn't belong to him. Actually, the same could be said for any of the Trek characters...

Anyway, this is really going off-topic but I would urge anyone who cares enough about this to post about it to volunteer as a mentor for one of these children. The need is great and it's quite rewarding.

Okay, that's my shameless plug for the day. Back to topic...

 

[Zameaze]

parental abandonment (particularly by African American men which calling it a stereotype gives a reason to dismiss the problem, imo)

Wow, did you just say the black male stereotype that black males abandon their families is true? You may need to rethink this position--it might be a tad insensitive.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Read the whole thread.

Everyone has been saying that.

Or at last repeating Avery Brookes on the subject.

men having been running from women, knocked up or otherwise since the beginning.

But then in the beginning, we were all black, right?

Beginning is a little relative, since before we were black, we were fish.

 

[Zameaze]

Read the whole thread.

Everyone has been saying that.

Or at last repeating Avery Brookes on the subject.

men having been running from women, knocked up or otherwise since the beginning.

But then in the beginning, we were all black, right?

Beginning is a little relative, since before we were black, we were fish.

I read the whole thread, and it has argued against the stereotype of the black male--no one else claimed it to be true.

Question: Do you agree with her representation of the black male?

Yes, parental abandonment (particularly by African American men which calling it a stereotype gives a reason to dismiss the problem, imo)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not really, its ridiculous, but it's also a sensitive subject to say that someone isn't being persecuted or singled out when they think they are because you're telling these persons how they are allowed to think which is ultimately a control issue.

Babymomma.

That's a very "black" word however.

The problem is universal, but it is a relief if the black guys want to take a load off for the rest us pretending that a Korean, an Italian or an Inuit had never scarpered at the first sign of some burgeoning baby bump obscuring the smaller genus of frilly knickers.

 

[Zameaze]

I read the whole thread, and it has argued against the stereotype of the black male--no one else claimed it to be true.

Question: Do you agree with her representation of the black male?

Yes, parental abandonment (particularly by African American men which calling it a stereotype gives a reason to dismiss the problem, imo)

Not really, its ridiculous, but it's also a sensitive subject to say that someone isn't being persecuted or singled out when they think they are because you're telling these persons how they are allowed to think which is ultimately a control issue.

I really didn't think so--you seem like a fun loving but decent guy. Just checking.

 

[exodus]

parental abandonment (particularly by African American men which calling it a stereotype gives a reason to dismiss the problem, imo)

Wow, did you just say the black male stereotype that black males abandon their families is true? You may need to rethink this position--it might be a tad insensitive.

Only a tad?

What's being dismissed is "Raisin in the Sun", "The Jefferson's", Sydney Poitier, messages in Tyler Perry & Spike Lee films and the fact we're talking about the subject right here & now.

 

[Zameaze]

parental abandonment (particularly by African American men which calling it a stereotype gives a reason to dismiss the problem, imo)

Wow, did you just say the black male stereotype that black males abandon their families is true? You may need to rethink this position--it might be a tad insensitive.

Only a tad?

What's being dismissed is "Raisin in the Sun", "The Jefferson's", Sydney Poitier, messages in Tyler Perry & Spike Lee films and the fact we're talking about the subject right here & now.

You are, of course, right. To say that mostly African-American men abandon their families, and that we need to recognize this as a fact and not a stereotype, is completely, absolutely, and unambiguously insensitive.

 

[zenfakor]

Kirk comes out of the nexus and turns them over to the borg, because he hates voyager.

 

[exodus]

Wow, did you just say the black male stereotype that black males abandon their families is true? You may need to rethink this position--it might be a tad insensitive.

Only a tad?

What's being dismissed is "Raisin in the Sun", "The Jefferson's", Sydney Poitier, messages in Tyler Perry & Spike Lee films and the fact we're talking about the subject right here & now.

You are, of course, right. To say that mostly African-American men abandon their families, and that we need to recognize this as a fact and not a stereotype, is completely, absolutely, and unambiguously insensitive.

Like Cyndi sang: True Colors shining through....

What's worse is it's a message board and you can always edit yourself so stuff like that can be corrected, yet the comment still stands.

 

[kimc]

Read the whole thread.

Everyone has been saying that.

Or at last repeating Avery Brookes on the subject.

Exactly, I was just expanding on that. Yes, it's not ONLY black men but many black leaders acknowledge it as a particular problem in the black community.

If anyone wants to pm me about this topic or open a thread in Miscellaneous or the Netural Zone then peachy.

As for this thread the next post will be on topic or it will be shut down.

 

[Zameaze]

As for this thread the next post will be on topic or it will be shut down.

But wouldn't that seem terribly self serving? A moderator takes a thread off topic with a bigoted remark, and then threatens to close the thread for being off subject if anyone objects to said bigoted remark?

 

[kimc]

And we're shutting it down. If someone would like to open another thread about how you would end Voyager then feel free. If someone would like to open a thread stemming from the discussion on Avery Brooks' comments on stereoptypes and fatherhood in a more appropriate forum then feel free. It could be an interesting discussion.