The Dominion War without the Romulans... guaranteed loss?

[Fish1941]

Why? It's just the ignoble art of realpolitik. Forcing the dominion into opening a second front with the RSE makes perfect strategic sense to me.

From a strategic point of view, perhaps. From a moral point of view, I found it repulsive.

 

[Star Wolf]

Federation science is all powerful. There is no way in hell in a protacted fight the Federation wouldn't have gone fully Manhattan Project on their ass if that was the only way .

Time travel, Genesis torpedo, trilithium device, nanites, interphasic cloak, attacking the ketrecel weakness of the Jem'Hedar, etc.

Some of the galaxy's most advanced tech from dead races is located on world's within Federation space. The Dominion is going to overrun the entirity of Federation space when that didn't even happen to Borg infested reality of TNG Parallels?


The Klingons were handicapped by wasteful acts of honor and bad leadership, the Federation was hobbled by ethical constraints. Never have any doubt that if the true destructive power of these governments was unleased the Dominion would be lying in ashes. The Dominion took 2,000 years to conqueor/develop technology that the Federation naturally progressed to in only 300 years after first contact with the Vulcans.


(On Edit) I accidentally voted no. The poll should be: 23% Yes 77% No

I tend to agree. While we have seen localities of the Federation overcome do we really know how far the Federation was stretched. It is sort of like asking could the United States have lost WWII. While we honor the US effort it was not the total effort that killed a generation which Europeans and Japanese experienced. At any time the US had a large reserve not committed to battlefields. as it was a small quasi legal band of Federation, Section 31, delivered the war winning weapon. Should the Dominion have made more tactical gains what was there to stop Section 31, or a private enterprise from developing and using another war ending WMD.

 

[Fish1941]

Federation science is all powerful.

Federation science is all powerful? Since when?

 

[Thor Damar]

Federation science is all powerful.

Federation science is all powerful? Since when?

Since the Vorta Keevan said.(rocks into replicators don't yaknow). Plus they invented the infamous character shields...

 

[Myasishchev]

And if that's the case, it means that the plague weapon had no real strategic value, other than at best dealing with Changeling infiltration, which had apparently already been brought under control by then.

At the time the weapon was initially deployed that was the greatest threat to the Federation. Odo was infected nearly two years before the war started at a point where changeling inflitration was a huge issue. They had a Changeling pose as a Tal Shiar colonel who helped bring down the Obsidian Order and seriously weaken the Tal Shiar. Another posed as a Federation ambassador and nearly sent the Feds and teh Tzenkethi to war. Next they had just the suggestion of infiltration was enough to spur the Klingons into war with the Cardassians and end the alliance between them and the Federation. So the threat was very real at that point and Section 31 decided to do something about it.

I'm thinking they were the ones behind the bombing of the conference at Antwerp. Leyton showed that he could make changeling matter appear with his fake blood test on Sisko. Section 31 uses that technique and blows up the conference knowing that Odo would be called in. He comes in, they infect him. Given this it is hard not to see Leyton as part of this conspiracy at some level given that he was putting together his coup before the conference was bombed, though he might not know that he was working with S31 or about the plan to infect Odo. Anyway, needless to say Odo is infected.

Also at this stage the Federation knows little about the Dominion. For example they don't learn about Vorta been clones or that Jem'Hadar would commit suicide and a Vorta would become incompetant enough to let the enemy get away with a captured Dominion warship after a Founder dies, until after Odo is infected. All they do really know is that the Jem'Hadar have some misgivings about serving the Vorta and aren't beyond rebelling and killing their Vorta overseer.

So their grand plan might have been to hope that the war wouldn't start before the Founders started getting seriously sick. Once that happened that the Founders would then be too concerned about their health to bother with the Alpha Quadrant. Founders die and then either Vorta start fighting for power and tear the Dominion down or that they could then make enough Jem'Hadar aware that their gods are dead that they would go Teal'c on the Vorta and become the catalyst to the downfall of the Dominion. Also at this point closing the wormhole is still considered a viable option, which would probably fall under back up plan.

All right, these are actually pretty valid points.

Hey, actually it seems that this is how the Changeling infiltration was dealt with. Go Section 31. Genocide works.

 

[Praetor]

Yeah, I have to agree. From a purely pragmatic perspective, it makes a heck of a lot of sense.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Federation science is all powerful? Since when?

Of course it is. Think of the sum knowledge gathered from all the series in 40 years be it from archeology or basic research. Vastly destructive knowledge exits.

Does the Dominion have a Dyson Sphere? a Guardian of Forever? Are they on good terms with the Cytherians or the Guardian of the Tkon Empire?

The Federation has known about the Omega particle for some time. How good is basic research in the Dominion? We can destroy planets and whole star systems. What does the opposition have?

I stick by my previous comment that the Federation is constrained by ethics not science.

 

[Captain Fine]

It seems to me it benefits the Federation to have so many races when it comes to science. Funding is as all well and good and very important, but having the brains to carry out that research is very portant as well, and different species think differently and have different viewpoints, so I think that's part of why Federation science is so much better than Vorta science (Vorta doctors tried to treat the changeling sickness to no avail; Vorta engineers tried to bring power back to Cardassia after it was sabotaged by Cardassians). Vorta are all cloned, so there isn't much genetic diversity there. I think Dominion technology itself is pretty much at a developmental standstill.

 

[Star Wolf]

I would think the Founders did not depend upon the Vorta for new ideals as infiltration specialist they would assimilate by industrial espinoge and depend upon the Vorta to reverse engineer their scientific acquisitions.

 

[James Wright]

Didn't Sisko record a log entry telling why he had to do what he did to get the Romulans to enter the war on the Federation/Klingon Empire side?
Who was the Romulan that Garek killed? It would've been this Romulan's report that would've doomed the Federation/Klingon alliance to defeat.
(Can't remember the episode though, sorry)

James

 

[happydave]

Sisko erased the log entry at the end of the episode. Garak killed a Romulan Senator.

That episode dealt with that the Romulans were staying Neutral since they felt it was in their best interests to. Sisko/Garak fabricate evidence to draw them into the war & eventually Garak kills the Senator once he discovers the forgery. The Dominion is blamed for his death thus drawing the Romulans into the war.

Garak essentially manipulated the entire situation and it wasn't that we would be doomed to defeat as they would have gone against us as that was never really the case as Garak had everything in control. It was that by the time to Romulans decided to enter the war it would have been too late so Sisko/Garak drew them in immediately.

The episode was 'In The Pale Moonlight'

 

[James Wright]

Well, I was in the ballpark, you guys aren't going to raise cane on me, are you?
(Yeah, if memory serves, Garek had to talk fast just to keep Sisko from killing him!)

James

 

[Myasishchev]

Garak killed at least three other people too, the holographer and two Romulan redshirts. Remember the little guys!

Sisko didn't. What an ass.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

It seems to me it benefits the Federation to have so many races when it comes to science. Funding is as all well and good and very important, but having the brains to carry out that research is very portant as well, and different species think differently and have different viewpoints, so I think that's part of why Federation science is so much better than Vorta science (Vorta doctors tried to treat the changeling sickness to no avail; Vorta engineers tried to bring power back to Cardassia after it was sabotaged by Cardassians). Vorta are all cloned, so there isn't much genetic diversity there. I think Dominion technology itself is pretty much at a developmental standstill.

Well, your point is well made, but the Dominion is multi-species too (usually). Only in the Alpha Quadrant did the Vorta take it up alone. Yes, Dominion technological development does appear slow, likely for the reasons you describe. The Dominion is at least 2000 years old, 10,000 according to Weyoun in at least one episode, and is only slightly more advanced than the Federation in terms of weapons, transporters ets, while being less advanced elsewhere. However, back in the Gamma Quadrant the Vorta presumably have many client races to help, to dedicate themselves to research and science. Vorta are probably much more efficient when back on home soil and with the resources of other worlds to command. During the later stages of the Dominion War, they were alone (there is no way they would have let Cardassians or Breen work on the Founder virus problem).

 

[Thor Damar]

Garak killed at least three other people too, the holographer and two Romulan redshirts. Remember the little guys!

Sisko didn't. What an ass.

Actually it was three Romulan Grey Shoulder Pad Wearers (I'm sure that there was a pilot as well). Not forgetting Grathon Tolar the poor blue sod...

I'm sure Sisko made a speech about how human lives are worthwhile and everyone is a unique flame that diminishes the universe by it's absence... hang on, that's B5 isn't it.

You're right Sisko made a complete arse of himself.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Why? It's just the ignoble art of realpolitik. Forcing the dominion into opening a second front with the RSE makes perfect strategic sense to me.

From a strategic point of view, perhaps. From a moral point of view, I found it repulsive.

There's no moral solution for the situation Sisko/Garak were in. In DS9:"In the pale moonlight", they chose the lesser evil.

If the romulans were not drawn into the war, a lot of federates, klingons, and subsequently romulans would have died. And then, the Alpha/Beta quadrants would be under dominion rule.

Because the romulans joined the war, less federation alliance soldiers died, and half a galaxy remained free.

 

[Xerxes1979]

There's no moral solution for the situation Sisko/Garak were in. In DS9:"In the pale moonlight", they chose the lesser evil.

If the romulans were not drawn into the war, a lot of federates, klingons, and subsequently romulans would have died. And then, the Alpha/Beta quadrants would be under dominion rule.

Because the romulans joined the war, less federation alliance soldiers died, and half a galaxy remained free.

Was it the least evil course of action?

(A) Continue to fight and if losing use extreme measures to forestall outright defeat. The comsic scales of morality are slightly lighter owing to one less act of definitive murder.

(B) Continue to fight but with the addition of the Romulans of their own accord at a later date. Victory may or may not be had in through conventional warfare. Even if losing to the Dominion would Federation losses be any greater than scenario A with the addition of the Romulans?

(C) Kill the Senator hoping to hell Romulus doesn't join the forces of the Dominion, increasing both Federation military casualities and civilian deathtolls. A Federation doomsday weapon response would still follow except on a much larger interstellar scale. The cosmic karma would be weighed down not only with an increased body count but with the same act of concrete murder.



What was the basis for Garak and Sisko's moral calculus? I find their risk reward analysis flawed.

 

[Star Wolf]

Well in Garak's world he is consistant with the accepted norms of moral behaviour. Sisko on the other hand knew he was in the wrong but acted anyway. Like he did before when he commited genocide on a Maquis planet. I forget, did Sisko know of Section 31 and what they were capable of at this point?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Episodes such as "Statistical Probabilities" and "In the pale moonlight" established that the Federation was losing badly. The war was almost lost.
In this thread, we can speculate about the federate superweapons (based on other star trek series), but it was clear that in DS9, the writers wouldn't use this route to solve the dominion war - and this series is better for it.

What were the choices?
1. Let the senator go, hoping that the romulans will join the war before it's too late - that means sooner, rather than later.
That's unlikey - consider the centuries-old animosity between the federation and the romulans; consider the fact that the romulans were letting dominion ships through their territory, just to give the federation a "bloody nose". There was a better chance of the romulans allying themselves with the dominion than with the federation.

And, if the romulans didn't join the war in time, the federation and the klingons would have lost the war, condemning the alpha/beta quadrants to centuries of oppression - at the very least.

At don't think the dominion would have been a "nice" landlord. At the beginning of season 6, Weyoun was planning earth's distruction - and the murder of billions - because earth was the most likely place for a revolt.
I wonder how many atrocities like this one would have taken place in centuries of occupation? How many BILLIONS would have payed with their blood for Garak/Sisko's naivete?

2. Essentially, what happened in DS9:"In the pale moonlight". Maybe the only chance the Federation had of actually winning the war.


An amoral choice? Yes, much like any decision in a war.
The lesser evil? Definitely.

 

[Myasishchev]

There's no moral solution for the situation Sisko/Garak were in. In DS9:"In the pale moonlight", they chose the lesser evil.

If the romulans were not drawn into the war, a lot of federates, klingons, and subsequently romulans would have died. And then, the Alpha/Beta quadrants would be under dominion rule.

Because the romulans joined the war, less federation alliance soldiers died, and half a galaxy remained free.

Was it the least evil course of action?

(A) Continue to fight and if losing use extreme measures to forestall outright defeat. The comsic scales of morality are slightly lighter owing to one less act of definitive murder.

(B) Continue to fight but with the addition of the Romulans of their own accord at a later date. Victory may or may not be had in through conventional warfare. Even if losing to the Dominion would Federation losses be any greater than scenario A with the addition of the Romulans?

(C) Kill the Senator hoping to hell Romulus doesn't join the forces of the Dominion, increasing both Federation military casualities and civilian deathtolls. A Federation doomsday weapon response would still follow except on a much larger interstellar scale. The cosmic karma would be weighed down not only with an increased body count but with the same act of concrete murder.



What was the basis for Garak and Sisko's moral calculus? I find their risk reward analysis flawed.

(D)The Federation should've used doomsday weapons immediately upon the advent of hostilities, especially if the Dominion didn't have any.