Is Fajo an ugly Jewish Stereotype?

[Gary Sebben]

Yes, asshole, I consider it an insult when you post it on a thread you started entitled Is Fajo an ugly Jewish Stereotype? Now back off of this kind of talk or I file a complaint.

Go ahead and complain. Jeez. You're the one cursing like a sailor for no reason. Calm down. Have a drink. I've said nothing here to get you mad. You're the one saying that looking like me or Saul is an insult. Frankly, I think Saul is a handsome guy. Hey, here's another guy who is objectively swarthy, curly haired, and big nosed, and he's gorgeous even to my heterosexual eyes: http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/sayid.jpg . I praise network TV everyday that he hasn't been cast as a terrorist. You don't need to be Nordic to be pretty.

Leonard Nimoy is a Jew and I believe Shatner might be as well. yeah, big ole stereotypes there.

I think what has you mad is that you think this is an indictment of all of Star Trek as racist. A million different people work on Star Trek. And in this instance a writer or a director or both either accidentally because of the collective unconscious or on purpose made some key decisions that created an image that peaks my curiosity. I'm not bashing the whole show. It would be ridiculous to say that or even think that whoever cast Saul also cast Leonard Nemoy 25 year previous. Calm down

 

[flemm]

I don't get the impression that Gary Sebben is arguing that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

The episode is more about Data than Fajo, Data's reaction to being dehumanized and treated as an object, and the question of when violence can be resorted to in order to combat this.

The question then is, to fill out the Fajo character and make him identifiable to the audience, did the writers more or less unconsciously tap into a cultural reservoir of ethnic stereotypes? Probably they did to a point, though the reservoir also included gay stereotypes, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, and even a reserve of fairy tale elements that are only indirectly related to ethnic stereotypes.

I don't think we have to accuse the writers of racism to recognize that old ethnic stereotypes might have contributed to the characterization of Fajo. And it's certainly interesting to notice that certain stereotypes seem to continue to influence our understanding of humanity beyond instances where actual virulent racism is the root cause.

 

[Zameaze]

Yes, asshole, I consider it an insult when you post it on a thread you started entitled Is Fajo an ugly Jewish Stereotype? Now back off of this kind of talk or I file a complaint.

Go ahead and complain. Jeez. You're the one cursing like a sailor for no reason. Calm down. Have a drink. I've said nothing here to get you mad. You're the one saying that looking like me or Saul is an insult. Frankly, I think Saul is a handsome guy. Hey, here's another guy who is objectively swarthy, curly haired, and big nosed, and he's gorgeous even to my heterosexual eyes: http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/sayid.jpg . I praise network TV everyday that he hasn't been cast as a terrorist. You don't need to be Nordic to be pretty.

Leonard Nimoy is a Jew and I believe Shatner might be as well. yeah, big ole stereotypes there.

I think what has you mad is that you think this is an indictment of all of Star Trek as racist. A million different people work on Star Trek. And in this instance a writer or a director or both either accidentally because of the collective unconscious or on purpose made some key decisions that created an image that peaks my curiosity. I'm not bashing the whole show. It would be ridiculous to say that or even think that whoever cast Saul also cast Leonard Nemoy 25 year previous. Calm down

The second quote is not mine, it's from Kross. It would seem that I'm not the only person that you've made cross here.

 

[Kross]

I'm not the one drawing unfounded conclusions, Sebban. Jews can't play materialistic or greedy characters, because of a perceived stereotype and they can't play the devil for the same reason. Brilliant. We are in the presence of genius, folks.

Edit: Point of interest: "The Most Toys" is airing tonight on Scifi.

 

[Zameaze]

I don't get the impression that Gary Sebben is arguing that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

No. I get the impression that Gary Sebben is trying to get us to believe that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

Gary Sebben is at the very least insensitive.

Do they enjoy it, or is it the only role a short, curly haired guy with a large nose and bushy eyebrows can get? I mean, talking about the actor's other TV roles, he gets to be a lawyer - A LOT. It's like a black guy who is only offered roles as criminals.

Little, swarthy greedy guy is an unavoidable (if annoying) collective unconscious symbol. But a swarthy greedy guy with a skull cap, being a nebbish

If you're going to cast a nebbishy, big nosed jew as the Devil, or a greedy business man who poison's wells

 

[flemm]

No. I get the impression that Gary Sebben is trying to get us to believe that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

Gary Sebben is at the very least insensitive.

Well, I was trying to salvage something interesting from a thread that is rapidly devolving, but perhaps it is a lost cause. Yes, some of the comments in the middle of the thread are insensitive.

 

[Gary Sebben]

No. I get the impression that Gary Sebben is trying to get us to believe that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

Gary Sebben is at the very least insensitive.

I don't see how describing the way someone looks or how you yourself looks is insensitive or insulting. Unless, once again, you believe having these features is a negative. In which case it's you who is insensitive and maybe a racist yourself. I've stated that twice, but you read what you want and disregard the rest.

This conversation degraded when two hyped up people couldn't be adults anymore and decided to lob insults and fain personal insult when its them saying the insulting things. You think its bad to look like a Mediterranean/Eastern European? Sorry, we won't all get plastic surgery to match your idea of beauty nor will we ignore the beauty of our natural selves. Find something else to do with your stick.

 

[Gary Sebben]

I'm not the one drawing unfounded conclusions, Sebban. Jews can't play materialistic or greedy characters, because of a perceived stereotype and they can't play the devil for the same reason. Brilliant. We are in the presence of genius, folks.

I think you are sincerely naive if you believe that any work of fiction can exist in a vacuum untouched by the culture around it. If you want to watch something uncritically like that it's your right and you may get more enjoyment than the rest of us by doing it, but don't tell me my opinions and observations are invalid because you choose to turn a so called color blind eye. It's that kind of uncritical viewing that leaves entertainment the sad stereotype theater that it often is.

 

[miraclefan]

I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed REAL soon. And Shatner is jewish, I belive. Yup! he's jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shatner

 

[Zameaze]

No. I get the impression that Gary Sebben is trying to get us to believe that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

Gary Sebben is at the very least insensitive.

Well, I was trying to salvage something interesting from a thread that is rapidly devolving, but perhaps it is a lost cause. Yes, some of the comments in the middle of the thread are insensitive.

Sorry, flemm, for not giving your post to my full attention. It was an interesting post and brought us back to the episode itself.

 

[Kross]

I'm not the one drawing unfounded conclusions, Sebban. Jews can't play materialistic or greedy characters, because of a perceived stereotype and they can't play the devil for the same reason. Brilliant. We are in the presence of genius, folks.

I think you are sincerely naive if you believe that any work of fiction can exist in a vacuum untouched by the culture around it. If you want to watch something uncritically like that it's your right and you may get more enjoyment than the rest of us by doing it, but don't tell me my opinions and observations are invalid because you choose to turn a so called color blind eye. It's that kind of uncritical viewing that leaves entertainment the sad stereotype theater that it often is.

Did I say that? Maybe your should open your eyes, shut your mouth and stop trying to rutting through the bullshit pen. Yes, there is racism in life, but the idea that the producers picked an actor to play a greedy and materialistic character because said actor happens to be of the Judaic faith is so beyond stupidity that I'm pretty sure you just broke stupid physics. I better example of racism would be the casting of Muslims and East Indians as terrorists.

 

[john titor]

rabble rabble rabble...sigh.

 

[Gary Sebben]

but the idea that the producers picked an actor to play a greedy and materialistic character because said actor happens to be of the Judaic faith is so beyond stupidity that I'm pretty sure you just broke stupid physics. I better example of racism would be the casting of Muslims and East Indians as terrorists.

Hey! Say stupid one more time and they verbally threaten me. It makes you more right.

You know you pretty much have proven my point here with the Muslim comment. I touched on the character of Sayid on Lost a few posts up being a shining example of Hollywood stepping up and not making a terrorist stereotype but instead a sexy love interest.

But what confuses me is that it's possible, in your mind, to typecast arabs but not jews? I want to know WHAT it is you are so violently mad at me over. Is it that you think jews alone never get stereotyped, do you feel that Star Trek is immune to racism, or are you mad that I'm citing an instance of antisemitism and not bringing up other types of racism as well? I just don't understand you. So stop screaming and swearing and answer the question.

 

[Kross]

Verbally threaten? Are you serious? Has anyone here threatened you physically? Who and where? Oh wait, that's right, no one has. This is just your pussy attempt to save face in a debate you've so thoroughly lost, you might as well rename yourself France.

Run along, child, run along.

 

[Gary Sebben]

Verbally threaten? Are you serious? Has anyone here threatened you physically? Who and where? Oh wait, that's right, no one has. This is just your pussy attempt to save face in a debate you've so thoroughly lost, you might as well rename yourself France.

Run along, child, run along.

Hmmm, I didn't know "losing" involved your opponent not answering any of your points.... I mean, look who's trying to save face by not answering me, insulting me more, and then using an ETHNIC INSULT about French people and me surrendering to you. This is the internet folks, where the racists claim there is no racism so we don't suspect them until it's too late. Thanks for exposing yourself so thoroughly. It's like an early father's day gift.

 

[Amaris]

Come on, guys, relax. I doubt Gary is trying to be racist, it's just something he noticed, that's all. And don't we come here to discuss what we noticed? I didn't notice it, but he did. Just let it go.


J.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think that Fajo was created to be some sort of Jewish stereotype. I've watched the episode several times and never tought about him that way. He could as well be the greedy shop-owner in the block or my greedy ex-neighbor some years ago (a definitely non-Jewish guy who did spend a lot of money on flashy things which he often didn't need or hardly used).

When it comes to Star Trek, I think that many characters and species are mixes of real people who might have inspired the writers in some way.

I remember writing a fanfic story some years ago when Voyager faced a megalomaniac dictator on a planet they encountered. I was actually inspired by a guy which some of my relatives had a conflict with then and made the dictator somewhat similar to that guy and I also added some things from other not so nice leaders as well so in the end the dictator became a cross between Stalin, Hitler and the North Korean leader Kim Il Sung. (The tragic thing is that the person who actually inspired me in the first place actually made up with my relatives later and died some years after that so I did feel a bit guilty for using him as he role model for the dictator and I actually removed some attributes from the dictator so there would be no connection with the diseased person and that character).

Anyway, two years ago a person mailed me with some positive comments on the story and commented on the dictator that he reminded him of Fidel Castro which is a bit interesting because I never thought of Castro when I created that character. So I guess sometimes we see similarities which were never supposed to be in the first place.

 

[Red Ranger]

I don't get the impression that Gary Sebben is arguing that the episode is overtly and intentionally racist.

The episode is more about Data than Fajo, Data's reaction to being dehumanized and treated as an object, and the question of when violence can be resorted to in order to combat this.

The question then is, to fill out the Fajo character and make him identifiable to the audience, did the writers more or less unconsciously tap into a cultural reservoir of ethnic stereotypes? Probably they did to a point, though the reservoir also included gay stereotypes, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, and even a reserve of fairy tale elements that are only indirectly related to ethnic stereotypes.

I don't think we have to accuse the writers of racism to recognize that old ethnic stereotypes might have contributed to the characterization of Fajo. And it's certainly interesting to notice that certain stereotypes seem to continue to influence our understanding of humanity beyond instances where actual virulent racism is the root cause.

Interesting points. I still think Fajo is a stereotype of fanatical collectors, the guys who buy up all the new Batman Begins toys to corner the market, for example. Thats who I always saw Fajo representing. Saul Rubinek is a terrific actor. He has a great role as a cowardly writer in Unforgiven.

 

[Kross]

Hmmm, I didn't know "losing" involved your opponent not answering any of your points.... I mean, look who's trying to save face by not answering me, insulting me more, and then using an ETHNIC INSULT about French people and me surrendering to you. This is the internet folks, where the racists claim there is no racism so we don't suspect them until it's too late. Thanks for exposing yourself so thoroughly. It's like an early father's day gift.

1. I would answer your points if you had made any that were worth answering.

2. My reference to France was not based on their ethnicity, but rather on the old, old joke about their tendacy not to win wars and their surrendering during WWII. I'm not the first nor the last to make the joke. Nice try though.

 

[Gary Sebben]

1. I would answer your points if you had made any that were worth answering.

If I'm not worth answering why are you here? Just to vent your insults? You could just ignore the thread all together. Something here interests you, but you seem to not be able to participate in a civil manner.

2. My reference to France was not based on their ethnicity, but rather on the old, old joke about their tendacy not to win wars and their surrendering during WWII. I'm not the first nor the last to make the joke. Nice try though.

Yeah, the penny pinching jew is an old joke too. Jews have a tendency to be cheap, you know. And poison wells. It's hilarious. "The Most Toys" wasn't the first one to bring it up and it won't be the last. You have no idea how wrong and hypocritical you are. It's very interesting to witness.