Why wasn't there ever a ds9 movie?

[Broccoli]

Darkwing, your info is incorrect. From what I remember -- and we're talking about something I read probably ten years ago, so make what you will of it -- they did toy with the idea of the Federation losing the war, but something miraculous would happen at the last moment that would defeat the Dominion, or some such nonsense. I don't think there was ever any serious talk about ending the series with a triumphant Dominion, and this was definitely not planned on leading into another series.

This is what I remember reading as well.

Looking at the show from King B's perspective, it broke all of his rules: 1) it had characters in conflict WITHIN the primary cast 2) things that happenedin one episode MATTERED in future episodes 3) it wasn't afraid to portray the characters as less than "perfect people".

To be fair to Berman, Gene Roddenberry would have had serious problems with 1 and 3 as well.

I doubt Berman would have had problems with any of that (at least to some extent).

Wasn't the reason Berman and Piller made DS9 "co-owned" by the Feds and the Bajorians so there could be conflict on the show between characters and still keep it within Roddenberry's ideal future?

I remember in the Making of Deep Space Nine book, they were interviewed and they mentioned that the Starfleet people could be all perfect with one another, but the Bajorians are a different story. They are not Starfleet, so they don't have to be perfect, nor do they have to like Starfleet. And thus we have conflict. B&P were able to eat their cake and kept it too!

They used that same loophole with creating Voyager, but UPN killed that show's character conflict that right off.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Darkwing, your info is incorrect. From what I remember -- and we're talking about something I read probably ten years ago, so make what you will of it -- they did toy with the idea of the Federation losing the war, but something miraculous would happen at the last moment that would defeat the Dominion, or some such nonsense. I don't think there was ever any serious talk about ending the series with a triumphant Dominion, and this was definitely not planned on leading into another series.

Looking at the show from King B's perspective, it broke all of his rules: 1) it had characters in conflict WITHIN the primary cast 2) things that happenedin one episode MATTERED in future episodes 3) it wasn't afraid to portray the characters as less than "perfect people".

To be fair to Berman, Gene Roddenberry would have had serious problems with 1 and 3 as well.

I will have to go digging and see if I can find the issue...it may take a bit, but I'll get back to everyone.

 

[Disillusioned]

It was stupid that there wasn't any conflict allowed among the humans or the Starfleet crew. There will always be clashes with personality, culture, etc, even if it doesn't lead to fist fights or killing one another over them. I, for one, am glad DS9 thumbed its nose at the ridiculous rules GR set up for TNG. Two of my favorite examples are when Sisko punches Q ("Picard wouldn't hit me!"), and Sisko's speech to Kira about how it's "easy to be an angel in paradise".

 

[JoeD80]

they did toy with the idea of the Federation losing the war, but something miraculous would happen at the last moment that would defeat the Dominion, or some such nonsense.

I did read in an interview somewhere (I think it was in a TV Guide or some such) that Behr was thinking of ending the show by having everything that happened being part of Benny's (Far Beyond the Stars) imagination. (St. Elsewhere all over again!) Perhaps that tied in to the Dominion winning the war.

 

[Broccoli]

^ I remember that too. Thank goodness they never took that route!

 

[Hober Mallow]

Wasn't the reason Berman and Piller made DS9 "co-owned" by the Feds and the Bajorians so there could be conflict on the show between characters and still keep it within Roddenberry's ideal future?

Yes. Their main goal in the conception of DS9 was to create character conflict which they weren't able to do on TNG. On TNG, the conflict had to come from an outside source, and this had for years been the biggest problem for many of the writers. Berman and Piller sought a way to do character conflict within the bounds of Roddenberry's Trek universe.

I remember in the Making of Deep Space Nine book, they were interviewed and they mentioned that the Starfleet people could be all perfect with one another, but the Bajorians are a different story. They are not Starfleet, so they don't have to be perfect, nor do they have to like Starfleet. And thus we have conflict. B&P were able to eat their cake and kept it too!

Exactly.

They used that same loophole with creating Voyager, but UPN killed that show's character conflict that right off.

To be fair to UPN, it was a problem with the creation of the show. Imagine if you transplanted the Voyager story to DS9. THe DS9 pilot is about a group of starfleep and Bajorans led by Sisko who discover the wormhole. They go through into the Gamma Quadrant. Then, suddenly, the wormhole closes, marooning them in the Gamma Quadrant. Now they have to set a course for home and work together to get there.

Just as with Voyager, the sources of character conflict are largely erased with the very first episode as the two groups have no choice but to put aside most of their differences to work toward a common goal. The problem with Voyager was conceptual. They set up a source of conflict, then circumstances nearly wipe out that conflict.

With DS9, on the other, the character conflict was set up and executed much better. Different people and different groups may have totally different goals. Sometimes, as with the case of Kira or Odo, the conflict in internal; they are committed to two opposing sides with two opposing goals and must choose one course of action or another. With Voyager, on the other hand, everyone has the same goal, so character conflict becomes harder to come by.

It was stupid that there wasn't any conflict allowed among the humans or the Starfleet crew. There will always be clashes with personality, culture, etc, even if it doesn't lead to fist fights or killing one another over them. I, for one, am glad DS9 thumbed its nose at the ridiculous rules GR set up for TNG. Two of my favorite examples are when Sisko punches Q ("Picard wouldn't hit me!"), and Sisko's speech to Kira about how it's "easy to be an angel in paradise".

Even better is Sisko in "In the Pale Moonlight."

I did read in an interview somewhere (I think it was in a TV Guide or some such) that Behr was thinking of ending the show by having everything that happened being part of Benny's (Far Beyond the Stars) imagination. (St. Elsewhere all over again!) Perhaps that tied in to the Dominion winning the war.

Yes, but they realized very quickly they couldn't do that, because it would mean all of Star Trek was Benny's imagination. DS9 appeared on TNG and Voyager, so even if Behr wanted to end the show that way, it wouldn't have worked.

 

[ManaByte]

The simple answer to this threads question is that DS9 was never as popular as TNG or TOS. The only way to get people into the theater for a DS9 movie is that if the station blows up and the TNG crew rescues the DS9 crew and they go off on an adventure using the Enterprise.

For the average movie-goer the Enterprise is 50% of Star Trek to them. Without that ship, they'll just be uninterested and you'll have a bomb as the hardcore Trek fanbase is not enough to support a major hollywood movie (see: Nemesis).

 

[TheGodBen]

Just as with Voyager, the sources of character conflict are largely erased with the very first episode as the two groups have no choice but to put aside most of their differences to work toward a common goal. The problem with Voyager was conceptual. They set up a source of conflict, then circumstances nearly wipe out that conflict.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it would be hard to come up with situations where interpersonal conflict took place on Voyager. Janeway is an explorer and is bound by Starfleet regulations, her instinct is to explore. Chakotay is a leader in a military campaign and his only imperative is to get home and back into the fight. Janeway's insistence on exploring every cubed inch of the delta quadrant and refusing to take shortcuts home if it means breaking the Prime Directive go against the goals of the Maquis. Character conflict ensues.

It would have been easy to have more conflict on Voyager, but instead Chakotay became Janeway's lap-dog before the end of the second episode and the conflict only emerged in season 4 when Seven showed up.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Janeway is an explorer and is bound by Starfleet regulations, her instinct is to explore. Chakotay is a leader in a military campaign and his only imperative is to get home and back into the fight. Janeway's insistence on exploring every cubed inch of the delta quadrant and refusing to take shortcuts home if it means breaking the Prime Directive go against the goals of the Maquis. Character conflict ensues.

The producers specifically wouldn't allow the writers have much or any conflict between the crew and Janeway because they were afraid it would have made her look like a weak leader.

 

[robtclements]

The producers specifically wouldn't allow the writers have much or any conflict between the crew and Janeway because they were afraid it would have made her look like a weak leader.

The irony is: by trying to avoid it, they made her the weakest of the captains - until Archer came along, at least. Someone should explain to these dudes that a character's strength comes from drama, not from the aquiescence of yes-men

 

[TheGodBen]

The producers specifically wouldn't allow the writers have much or any conflict between the crew and Janeway because they were afraid it would have made her look like a weak leader.

The irony is: by trying to avoid it, they made her the weakest of the captains - until Archer came along, at least. Someone should explain to these dudes that a character's strength comes from drama, not from the aquiescence of yes-men

I think you're both very right, they tried to make Janeway seem strong by having nobody challenge her and because nobody challenged her we never got a sense as to why she should be considered a great captain. What better way to show strength than having her convince a sceptical crew of her convictions? Rather than making Janeway seem strong they made the rest of the crew look like sheep.

Sisko came across as a strong captain partly because he was constantly facing down challenges from Kira and Odo during the first season. Just one of the many reasons he is my favourite captain.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Captain Sisko did have presence, didn't he? He was more outspoken and in your face...even Worf was said to be made nervous around him- Worf!

He also got the main chance to be a bit stylish- He went bald and then was allowed to even have go-t type beard...

Before it was always standard for the others- hair combed back, standard haircut suitable for a starfleet officer...

...even with Janeway in the her few seasons, she wore her hair in a bon, but later she wore it in a stylish fashion without compromising 'guidelines'....

 

[Broccoli]

To be fair to UPN, it was a problem with the creation of the show. Imagine if you transplanted the Voyager story to DS9. THe DS9 pilot is about a group of starfleep and Bajorans led by Sisko who discover the wormhole. They go through into the Gamma Quadrant. Then, suddenly, the wormhole closes, marooning them in the Gamma Quadrant. Now they have to set a course for home and work together to get there.

Just as with Voyager, the sources of character conflict are largely erased with the very first episode as the two groups have no choice but to put aside most of their differences to work toward a common goal. The problem with Voyager was conceptual. They set up a source of conflict, then circumstances nearly wipe out that conflict.

True, but the conflict went away too quickly. By the second episode, everyone was working together, no problems whatsoever and the Maquis settled into Starfleet life too easily. It would seem more realistic if there were more instances as depicted in "Learning Curve" (the only real episode dealing with the Maqs in the fashion [and it was only a small handful of them too]) at the beginning of the series.

 

[Disillusioned]

For the average movie-goer the Enterprise is 50% of Star Trek to them. Without that ship, they'll just be uninterested and you'll have a bomb as the hardcore Trek fanbase is not enough to support a major hollywood movie (see: Nemesis).

Bad example. Not only because at least this hardcore Trek fan didn't like it, but because it was a TNG movie that had Enterprise and the familiar TNG characters in it.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it would be hard to come up with situations where interpersonal conflict took place on Voyager. Janeway is an explorer and is bound by Starfleet regulations, her instinct is to explore. Chakotay is a leader in a military campaign and his only imperative is to get home and back into the fight. Janeway's insistence on exploring every cubed inch of the delta quadrant and refusing to take shortcuts home if it means breaking the Prime Directive go against the goals of the Maquis. Character conflict ensues.

It would have been easy to have more conflict on Voyager, but instead Chakotay became Janeway's lap-dog before the end of the second episode and the conflict only emerged in season 4 when Seven showed up.

This was my thought as well. Not to mention being trapped and forced to work together really wouldn't change how they felt about each other. Starfleet thought of the Maquis as traitors, the Maquis thought of Starfleet in about the same light for abandoning their colonies to an enemy. There probably would have been problems with them working together, and they'd want to segregate themselves. There probably would have been Starfleet people angry that there were Maquis going around wearing Starfleet uniforms. There probably would have been Starfleet people who refused to serve under a Maquis XO and a Maquis chief engineer. Stuff like that.

The producers specifically wouldn't allow the writers have much or any conflict between the crew and Janeway because they were afraid it would have made her look like a weak leader.

What made her look like a weak leader was the stereotypical maternal character instead of a leader. It also didn't help that they made her make some really unreasonable and outright stupid calls (hence the nickname "Insaneway"), and that B&B didn't really seem to understand leadership all that well. They just thought that people would listen to the captain because they're the captain, and the captain is always right even when they're wrong.

The irony is: by trying to avoid it, they made her the weakest of the captains - until Archer came along, at least. Someone should explain to these dudes that a character's strength comes from drama, not from the aquiescence of yes-men

Exactly. Though I think the main problem with Archer was the whole "destiny" crap, and all the telling instead of showing. Not to mention how entitled he seemed to act all the time. But he did still have that "captain is always right" thing going on that Janeway had, too, which is not surprising considering who wrote both characters.

 

[Tachyon]

This thread has been most interesting read. Comments posted here has put some things in perspective for me.

 

[Tachyon]

I agree with you on Behr, but as for the others involved, I hope that after what he did to Battlestar Galactica, Ron Moore never goes near Star Trek again.

Why?

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it would be hard to come up with situations where interpersonal conflict took place on Voyager. Janeway is an explorer and is bound by Starfleet regulations, her instinct is to explore. Chakotay is a leader in a military campaign and his only imperative is to get home and back into the fight.

Don't you think that there is a room for people to change in their situation? They were in pretty dire situation there? How much Maquis goals would weight in the Delta Quadrant on a Starfleet ship? And what about Chakotay? In the end he was a man of peace. Taken away from his fight in AQ, there was a room for him to put certain things behind him. In addition, before Maquis, Chakotay was a Starfleet officer so he has this exploring side in him too instead of being Mr. Maquis Man only. Thank goodness he did not stay that way. Could he have stayed that way a bit longer? Perhaps. But it didn't happen and what happened was alright as well.

But enough of Voyager now. This thread is about DS9.

 

[Broccoli]

I agree with you on Behr, but as for the others involved, I hope that after what he did to Battlestar Galactica, Ron Moore never goes near Star Trek again.

Why?

There is a portion of the fanbase that didn't like what he did on BSG. Not having seen BSG, I cannot agree or disagree with that sentiment.

Don't you think that there is a room for people to change in their situation? They were in pretty dire situation there? How much Maquis goals would weight in the Delta Quadrant on a Starfleet ship? And what about Chakotay? In the end he was a man of peace. Taken away from his fight in AQ, there was a room for him to put certain things behind him. In addition, before Maquis, Chakotay was a Starfleet officer so he has this exploring side in him too instead of being Mr. Maquis Man only. Thank goodness he did not stay that way. Could he have stayed that way a bit longer? Perhaps. But it didn't happen and what happened was alright as well.

I can see Chakotay putting aside his Maquis goals for the specific reasons you state. The Maquis under him, not so much. They all became chummy with the Starfleet crew way too quickly.

Janeway, on the other hand, needed to back down from exploring. Yeah, that's great that they want to check out a strange thing every now and again, but it seemed like they were checking things out just to check things out instead of checking things out to see if they could get home.

But, oh well. Like Voyager's endless supply of shuttles, its one of those things we have to go with.

But enough of Voyager now. This thread is about DS9.

Yeah, but wasn't Voyager suppose to steal DS9's thunder?

 

[Tachyon]

^Ooo! Well, that explains why certain Niners are still so maaaad.


I am still curious, though, what was the exact thing Moore did with BSG that doesn't agree with certain Trekkers?

For me, BSG and Trek are two different shows and therefore I try not to compare them in detail. There has been some BSG vs. Voyager discussion going on on Voyager board and even though it might be interesting read at times, I still wouldn't personally categorize them in the same "box". Voyager was first about the journey then about survival, and BSG first about survival, then about the journey. More or less.

But back on the topic - as a fan I would have liked to see both DS9 and Voyager movies, but like many of you have already stated (much better than I ever could with my crappy English), there would have been certain problems when trying to offer DS9 to the general public. Trek = Enterprise for many. However, I would have loved to see some TV movies, for instance. I am not a huge fan of DS9's finale. For me there was too much stuff squeezed in two-hour episode. So I think there could have been room for couple of TV movies.

And as a Voyager fan, I would have loved to see TV movie or two featuring my favorite gang as well.

 

[Creedence]

To be honest I think the Dominion Occupation arc is pretty much the DS9 movie. It's also something very unique for DS9 compared to the other Trek shows.

How can something be very unique? It's redundant.

Sorry. Bad grammar is my automated self-destruct sequence.

 

[TheGodBen]

I am still curious, though, what was the exact thing Moore did with BSG that doesn't agree with certain Trekkers?

As a fan of BSG and Ron Moore's work in general so I don't agree with the complaints against him, but I imagine people don't want him on Trek because Trek is optimistic and BSG was so dark. People were flushed out of airlocks, a woman committed suicide by shooting herself onscreen, Adama became an alcoholic... These are not the sorts of things one associates with Star Trek.