NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook Sci-F

[Lindley]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

I do have the question the qualifications of whoever wrote that list, actually.

Popular high-school cheerleader, gifted student and world class vampire slayer… Is there no end to Buffy’s talents?

She used to be a popular cheerleader. Both "cheerleader" and "popular" go out the window about 3 episodes into the series. And "gifted student"? She scraped by. As Willow says in the Buffy series finale, "Sweet girl. Not that bright."

One out of three?

 

[JustKate]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

Eye candy/glorified operator and an Insaneway? Really?

You're kidding, right? Or maybe you're just too young to realize what an enormous breakthrough it was for a primetime TV show to show a black woman who wasn't a cleaning woman or a nightclub singer. Of course Uhura belongs on the list. Yeah, of course, it would have been nice if they had her do more than answer the "phone," but then again, it would have been nice if they'd had other women on the show be more than eye candy as well. It was the 1960s. Things were...a little bit different then, you know.

As for Janeway, come on - like her or loathe her (and personally I quite like her, though I don't adore her or anything), she was the first female starship captain who had more than a bit part. Give her her due.

 

[Disillusioned]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

You're kidding, right? Or maybe you're just too young to realize what an enormous breakthrough it was for a primetime TV show to show a black woman who wasn't a cleaning woman or a nightclub singer. Of course Uhura belongs on the list. Yeah, of course, it would have been nice if they had her do more than answer the "phone," but then again, it would have been nice if they'd had other women on the show be more than eye candy as well. It was the 1960s. Things were...a little bit different then, you know.

It may have been a breakthrough to not use her as a racial stereotype, but her portrayal was still sexist. And really if you look at the new movie nothing has changed much that way - Hollywood can be pretty misogynist in its own way.

As for Janeway, come on - like her or loathe her (and personally I quite like her, though I don't adore her or anything), she was the first female starship captain who had more than a bit part. Give her her due.

What good is it to be the first at something if you suck at it? She may have been the first female lead, but she was very poor as a captain, so she would hardly be inspirational at all.

 

[Ziz]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

As for Janeway, come on - like her or loathe her (and personally I quite like her, though I don't adore her or anything), she was the first female starship captain who had more than a bit part. Give her her due.

What good is it to be the first at something if you suck at it? She may have been the first female lead, but she was very poor as a captain, so she would hardly be inspirational at all.

She also didn't have "Call Starfleet and inform them of our situation" to fall back on. She was out on her own, making things up as she went along. It was a matter of survival, not just business as usual. Playing by the rules only get you so far...beyond that, you gotta improvise, and with that comes mistakes and failures.

Someone can be inspirational without being successful. It isn't always about a stack of accomplishments. Sometimes it's about having the balls to take the chance in the first place, regardless of the result.

 

[Disillusioned]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

But she was still a bad captain. Being a good one doesn't depend on having someone further up the chain of the command to fall back on, it depends on showing competence of command and good leadership.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

But she was still a bad captain. Being a good one doesn't depend on having someone further up the chain of the command to fall back on, it depends on showing competence of command and good leadership.

If she was so bad why did Starfleet promote her?

 

[JustKate]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

As I understand it, the issue is not "who is the best captain ever?" nor who is the most "inspirational." It's what women made an important mark on scifi, and whether you like it or not, and like them or not, Uhura and Janeway belong on the list.

As for Uhura's role being "sexist," no kidding. Find me one TOS female who's role wasn't an ode to sexism and then we'll talk. You'd be hard put to find any TV roles on any series of the time where the roles weren't sexist.

And Nichelle Nichols gave the relatively small role of Uhura a dignity that cannot be categorized by simplistic terms such as "eye candy" and "glorified operator." You can play an operator - or a maid - as a joke or as a dignified human being, and Nichols' Uhura was a dignified human being, even in that silly miniskirt. If you think that isn't important, that can only be because you weren't around then or that you've forgotten.

Edit: And compared to Jane Fonda's Barbarella, which is (God only knows why) also on the list, Uhura is a positive beacon of gender equality! Ye gods.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

If anything, it strains credibility to count Buffy the Vampire Slayer as "sci-fi."

EDIT: I see now the list encompasses Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

But WTF is Halle Barry's Storm doing on this list? What did she do that was so great?

She was black.

Rob

 

[JustKate]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

If anything, it strains credibility to count Buffy the Vampire Slayer as "sci-fi."

EDIT: I see now the list encompasses Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

But WTF is Halle Barry's Storm doing on this list? What did she do that was so great?

She was black.

Rob

So was Eartha Kitt, and she also played Catwoman - long before Halle did, actually. Although I see from the list that Halle is listed for her role in X-Men.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

If anything, it strains credibility to count Buffy the Vampire Slayer as "sci-fi."

EDIT: I see now the list encompasses Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

But WTF is Halle Barry's Storm doing on this list? What did she do that was so great?

She was black.

Rob

So was Eartha Kitt, and she also played Catwoman - long before Halle did, actually. Although I see from the list that Halle is listed for her role in X-Men.

Well, I see these list, as most lists are that are 'best of', more of a way to show how much of a melting pot we are more so than who is the 'best of' any thing. She's on there because she is black, and I'm okay with that. Yes I know, maybe STORM herself isn't black, I am not fan of Marvel, but I think since Hallie is that is why she is listed.

Black women in scifi roles are few and far between. So good for her. I think she happens to be the only OSCAR winner on that list, which could be part of it as well...but I hardly think the movie character STORM warrents any listing at all on her own..its more the actress than the character...

Rob

 

[Strider]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

Nichelle Norris

Nichols. Nichelle Nichols.

The only problem with the list is that it's way too long. The only women who I'd really say "shook" sci-fi would be (in no order):

Ripley, Sarah Conner, Starbuck, Princess Leia, Uhura, Buffy, and possibly Janeway. Maybe Scully, too. I mean, when I think about "shaking sci-fi" I imagine people still bringing up the character in their nerdy convesations some years later. Will people still be talking about Mikaela Banes (or even watching Transformers) in a few years. I kinda doubt it. My list of male characters who "rattled sci-fi"' would probably be equally short, btw.

 

[Mach5]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

My top ten would look like this:
(I haven't really thought about the other 15, but Starbuck and T'Pol would most certainly be among them)

01. Princess Leia (SW)
02. Sarah Connor (T1 & T2, forget the TV show)
03. Nyota Uhura (TOS)
04. Ellen Ripley (Alien Quadrilogy)
05. Aeryn Sun (Farscape)
06. Kathryn Janeway (VOY)
07. Dana Scully (The X-Files)
08. Seven of Nine (VOY)
09. Trinity (Matrix)
10. Major Matoko Kusanagi (Ghost in The Shell)

 

[Cyke101]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

But she was still a bad captain. Being a good one doesn't depend on having someone further up the chain of the command to fall back on, it depends on showing competence of command and good leadership.

If she was so bad why did Starfleet promote her?

My favorite joke is: so that she would be behind a desk instead of getting another starship lost

 

[Ziz]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

But she was still a bad captain. Being a good one doesn't depend on having someone further up the chain of the command to fall back on, it depends on showing competence of command and good leadership.

Not to keep tangenting off the thread but any successful professional got there by taking the advice of other people in their field with more experience. Yeah, they make their own mistakes along the way in spite of advice, but that's part of being human. Janeway didn't have any other current advice to fall back on (calling Starfleet), all she had was her own experience, her own command style and select historical records. It's all relative.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

Claire Bennett? Pffft. The best female character on that show by far is her grandmother Angela.

I'd put Aeryn Sun, River Tam and Leela from Futurama on that list.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

Eye candy/glorified operator and an Insaneway? Really?

You're kidding, right? Or maybe you're just too young to realize what an enormous breakthrough it was for a primetime TV show to show a black woman who wasn't a cleaning woman or a nightclub singer. Of course Uhura belongs on the list. Yeah, of course, it would have been nice if they had her do more than answer the "phone," but then again, it would have been nice if they'd had other women on the show be more than eye candy as well. It was the 1960s. Things were...a little bit different then, you know.

As for Janeway, come on - like her or loathe her (and personally I quite like her, though I don't adore her or anything), she was the first female starship captain who had more than a bit part. Give her her due.

Indeed. Both women are iconic in their own way and they definitely deserve the be on that list.

 

[JustKate]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

Nichelle Norris

Nichols. Nichelle Nichols.

Oops - so sorry. I've corrected it now. I guess I should be glad I didn't call her "Michelle." Or "Chuck."

The only problem with the list is that it's way too long. The only women who I'd really say "shook" sci-fi would be (in no order):

Ripley, Sarah Conner, Starbuck, Princess Leia, Uhura, Buffy, and possibly Janeway. Maybe Scully, too. I mean, when I think about "shaking sci-fi" I imagine people still bringing up the character in their nerdy convesations some years later. Will people still be talking about Mikaela Banes (or even watching Transformers) in a few years. I kinda doubt it. My list of male characters who "rattled sci-fi"' would probably be equally short, btw.

I think I might have a different definition...although it would result in many and perhaps all of the same people. I would say "shaking scifi" implies that they changed scifi in at least some way - changed how people perceived scifi or changed how scifi perceived itself. So your list looks like a pretty good one to me.

Indeed. Both women are iconic in their own way and they definitely deserve the be on that list.

Yep. It's isn't whether you like them or not - it's how significant they are to the genre, or so it seems to me.

 

[Disillusioned]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

If she was so bad why did Starfleet promote her?

Because it's a show and the people writing it wouldn't know leadership if it walked up and slapped them in the face. Remember this gem from VOY? "The captain is always right, even when she's not." Not to mention all the stereotypical matriarch crap.

As I understand it, the issue is not "who is the best captain ever?" It's what women made an important mark on scifi, and whether you like it or not, and like them or not, Uhura and Janeway belong on the list.

Well, there are two problems I have with that. I think that if there was such a list it should be for female characters that are positive. The other problem I have is that the website acts as if they were positive.

As for Uhura's role being "sexist," no kidding. Find me one TOS female who's role wasn't an ode to sexism and then we'll talk. You'd be hard put to find any TV roles on any series of the time where the roles weren't sexist.

You're kind of missing the point, including the one I made about how the role hasn't changed all that much in 40 years, not even now that they have a new actress playing the part.

And Nichelle Nichols gave the relatively small role of Uhura a dignity that cannot be categorized by simplistic terms such as "eye candy" and "glorified operator." You can play an operator - or a maid - as a joke or as a dignified human being, and Nichols' Uhura was a dignified human being, even in that silly miniskirt. If you think that isn't important, that can only be because you weren't around then or that you've forgotten.

But the list isn't honoring the actresses, it's honoring the characters.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

Well, there are two problems I have with that. I think that if there was such a list it should be for female characters that are positive. The other problem I have is that the website acts as if they were positive.

For a lot of people these two characters are "positive" ones. Just because they are not positive for you in particular, doesn't mean that they wouldn't be positive for someone else.

Uhura and Janeway are legendary Trek women. And I am glad people outside of Trek fandom also acknowledge their worth. I would have even ranked them higher.

 

[JustKate]

Re: NYOTA UHURA & KATHRYN JANEWAY included in the 25 women who shook S

See, I agree with a lot of what you say, Disillusioned...but I have simply come to the exact opposite conclusion. Aren't people funny?

The only thing I strongly disagree with, really, is this:

Well, there are two problems I have with that. I think that if there was such a list it should be for female characters that are positive. The other problem I have is that the website acts as if they were positive.

The website specificially says it's attempting to identify the "most important SF & fantasy heroines." "Important" doesn't equal "positive."

As for your first point, I just disagree. Leaving aside whether Janeway and Uhura are positive or not, I don't see why such a list should include only "positive" characters. It should be those characters that are most significant. Whether the characters listed all count as significant is, of course, another question. Some do, some don't, IMO, but I don't see how anybody can say Janeway and Uhura, like 'em or loathe 'em (I like 'em), aren't significant.

Were "blackface" acts positive? Nope. But they were significant. Heck, for people who had seldom if ever seen a black person face to face (such as people who lived in the rural Midwest), this was their introduction to "black" people. You can't get more significant than that.

You're kind of missing the point, including the one I made about how the role hasn't changed all that much in 40 years, not even now that they have a new actress playing the part.

No, I don't think I am missing the point. What I'm saying is, Nichelle Nichols' Uhura is and was important, no matter what's been done to the character since.

But the list isn't honoring the actresses, it's honoring the characters.

Yep. And the character also had dignity - dignity given to her by the actress who portrayed her. Dignity in spite of some of the silly things they had her say and wear.

You are considering Uhura based on modern standards. Yes, you are - admit it. But when considering how significant a character was, you really need to consider instead what had come before...which in the case of Uhura and network TV was...well, not much. And most of it - probably all of it, but I'm hedging in case I've forgotten something important (Julia came after Uhura) - was awful.

I don't mean to insult your knowledge of history, but I have to think that you either weren't alive then (I was) or you've forgotten. It was awful. The situation for black characters on TV isn't that great now, I admit, but then it was awful. How awful? So awful that even a relatively small role showing a black female behaving like a competent and professional anything was a huge breakthrough. I'm sorry to have to tell you that having a black woman be "eye candy" was a breakthrough of sorts, too. That just wasn't done on regular TV then. At all. Black women were seldom used at all in TV, and when they were used, they were pretty much used as scenery - maids, waitresses, nannies, etc. Not as people who might actually be sexually attractive.