Galaxy class a failure?

[Captain Fine]

Good memory! I'd forgotten that. I think the TNG TM suggests it went Galaxy -> Yamato -> Enterprise, so I'd be fine to just stick the Challenger between the Galaxy and Yamato, and perhaps suggest it launched after either of those even if it was contracted first.

Memory? hahaha. Memory Alpha yes!

The only thing they said is that Enterprise and Yamato were sister ships of the Galaxy-class. Let's just speculate that they were built in pairs, and Challenger was Galaxy's sister ship.

 

[Praetor]

That will work.

 

[IndyJones]

only small numbers of galaxys were produced perhaps only single digits worth

Based on what? If you look at the percentage of Galaxy class starships in DS9 battles and assume a relatively equal proportion for the entire fleet, there would be thousands of them. Even if that's a bit extreme, there would at least be more than 10.

The notion that only a small number of Galaxys were produced comes from the TNG Technical Manuel, which says that only six were initially built and six more in half-built in reserve. Presumably Starfleet upped Galaxy production after the Battle of Wolf 359.

I think it's hard to take that number seriously. The Tech Manual was published during TNG ('91-'92ish), right? At that point, what was the largest fleet of Starfleet ships that we had seen up to that point? Wolf 359 comes to mind, but we actually saw very little of the battle.

I just have a hard time believing I (or Sternbach&Okuda) could have conceived of the DS9 era and forward fleet numbers that we saw during that point of TNG.

-Indy, who remembers his jaw dropping at the end of 'A Call to Arms'.

 

[nx1701g]

so basically the Galaxy class is a failure^

It might explain why they didn't refit them! However there is the VENTURE type variant of the GALAXY! That was the ship we mostly saw in DS9 not the original GALAXY! my geuss is that the galaxy WAS a good design, but in order to fight in the war they kept the overall shape of the galaxy, but gave it stronger shilds & weapons systems, this is where I belive the VENTURE class came in. Now you may ask, why didn't they just make a new design for the venture? Because they had already made the saucer sactions & probibly still had a a ton of galaxy frames(skeletons) that they had to use.

You are incorrect. The Venture refit was only seen once in Deep Space Nine's entire run. In The Way of the Warrior we saw the Venture and it had modified nacelles that included weapon's ports. By the next time we saw it (Tears of the Prophets) the Venture was back to normal.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

^It could be a plug-in module which saps power off of the warp drive, explaining why we didn't see the Venture with it afterwards. Or its engines got damaged and they had to swap for some stock nacelles.

 

[Captain Fine]

^It could be a plug-in module which saps power off of the warp drive, explaining why we didn't see the Venture with it afterwards. Or its engines got damaged and they had to swap for some stock nacelles.

Or we could just ignore it since it was leftover from the AGT Future Enterprise. We don't have to explain EVERY little thing that we see on-screen, especially something as insignificant as that.

IMHO there is just ONE Galaxy-class type :P

 

[nx1701g]

^It could be a plug-in module which saps power off of the warp drive, explaining why we didn't see the Venture with it afterwards. Or its engines got damaged and they had to swap for some stock nacelles.

Or we could just ignore it since it was leftover from the AGT Future Enterprise. We don't have to explain EVERY little thing that we see on-screen, especially something as insignificant as that.

IMHO there is just ONE Galaxy-class type :P

Actually we know that isn't the case. In Booby Trap the computer informs LaForge that Starfleet is working on a modified Galaxy Class so there could be multiple Galaxy Class types in service.

 

[Captain Fine]

^It could be a plug-in module which saps power off of the warp drive, explaining why we didn't see the Venture with it afterwards. Or its engines got damaged and they had to swap for some stock nacelles.

Or we could just ignore it since it was leftover from the AGT Future Enterprise. We don't have to explain EVERY little thing that we see on-screen, especially something as insignificant as that.

IMHO there is just ONE Galaxy-class type :P

Actually we know that isn't the case. In Booby Trap the computer informs LaForge that Starfleet is working on a modified Galaxy Class so there could be multiple Galaxy Class types in service.

Hmm I do not recall that. Do you recall the exact line? I don't have any TNG DVDs...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's perfectly fine for there to be a few variants on a given class of ship. Surely the P-51 never had a Merlin engine or a bubble canopy installed, right?

 

[C.E. Evans]

^It could be a plug-in module which saps power off of the warp drive, explaining why we didn't see the Venture with it afterwards. Or its engines got damaged and they had to swap for some stock nacelles.

Or we could just ignore it since it was leftover from the AGT Future Enterprise. We don't have to explain EVERY little thing that we see on-screen, especially something as insignificant as that.

IMHO there is just ONE Galaxy-class type :P

Actually we know that isn't the case. In Booby Trap the computer informs LaForge that Starfleet is working on a modified Galaxy Class so there could be multiple Galaxy Class types in service.

Actually, in "Booby Trap" the reference was towards something that was being proposed for the next class of starship, which could have been either any design that followed the Galaxy-class (such as the Intrepid-class, for example).

 

[Arpy]

No.

The Yamato was destroyed by technology so far advanced that it made starships comparable to sticks and stones in their effectiveness against it. The Enterprise-J would have fared no better.

The Odyssey held its own without shields before an until-then unknown superior force, regardless of it's physical size, sacrificed itself to destroy it.

The Enterprise was lost not because of its specs but a cheat going around them.

All three were lost because they needed to be for story's sake. Nothing would have happened any different if it were an Sovereign, Defiant, Intrepid, Akira, or other starship class in their places. God himself transformed a la Optimus Prime into a starship would have fared no better.

None, it's been said, were lost during the Dominion war, and the ones we saw were kicking ass and taking numbers. The Defiant was beaten left and right and destroyed during DS9's run (and replaced with another ship with inferior carpeting...) yet is it a failure? The Intrepid Class survived encounters with Borg battleships yet have we seen more than one or two others in the fleet? Exactly how many more Mirandas are there than beings in the known universe, and how many do we have to vaporize before we see the last of them?

Botox, Emo, Sovereign.

We don't know how many of the other ship classes were lost over the years. The fan favorite Akira could have the worst record in the fleet. Do you know how many Nova's were lost studying pre-warp cultures? Have a seat, girlfriend, we gotta talk.

They could have blown up the E-D every week for 200 episodes and a single line of dialogue would make it superior to a fleet of Dominion battleships. If the story demands it, a travel pod could outmatch a Borg dysonsphere.

It's a TV show.

 

[Praetor]

Or we could just ignore it since it was leftover from the AGT Future Enterprise. We don't have to explain EVERY little thing that we see on-screen, especially something as insignificant as that.

IMHO there is just ONE Galaxy-class type :P

Actually we know that isn't the case. In Booby Trap the computer informs LaForge that Starfleet is working on a modified Galaxy Class so there could be multiple Galaxy Class types in service.

Actually, in "Booby Trap" the reference was towards something that was being proposed for the next class of starship, which could have been either any design that followed the Galaxy-class (such as the Intrepid-class, for example).

Ahh. That makes sense.

Slightly OT, I've wondered if the Venture's little bumps were akin to the rollbar phasers on the Miranda, drawing power directly from the warp engines. Clearly, they didn't work. I wonder why they were unable to remove them prior to "Way of the Warrior"? Not enough time? Were they ever removed from the four-footer?

They could have blown up the E-D every week for 200 episodes and a single line of dialogue would make it superior to a fleet of Dominion battleships. If the story demands it, a travel pod could outmatch a Borg dysonsphere.

Truer words have seldom been spoken.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

only small numbers of galaxys were produced perhaps only single digits worth

Based on what? If you look at the percentage of Galaxy class starships in DS9 battles and assume a relatively equal proportion for the entire fleet, there would be thousands of them. Even if that's a bit extreme, there would at least be more than 10.

The notion that only a small number of Galaxys were produced comes from the TNG Technical Manuel, which says that only six were initially built and six more in half-built in reserve. Presumably Starfleet upped Galaxy production after the Battle of Wolf 359.

tech manual isn't canon, though. That's why I asked what it was based on. If it's just based on that, you can't definitively argue anything.

 

[Praetor]

I don't think the six built/six frames/potential for twelve figure was given anywhere but the TM. The "no more than nine in a scene" thing from DS9 was probably meant to correspond to this, but could "just happen" to correspond to the idea that there were only a total of twelve and three have been lost.

If in any one scene there were ten, then that pretty much says they built more. For my money, they build at least six more. Probably twelve more.

(Obviously, the number twelve is an homage to Kirk's "only twelve like her" from "Tomorrow is Yesterday.")

 

[Nightdiamond]

In Sacrifice of Angels, it's hard to see, but you can see what looks like a Galaxy class ship destroying the large Dominion Battlecruiser at point blank range.

In another episode, W.Y.L.B. , it looks like one destroyed another Battlecruiser and a small bug.

They also seemd to tough it out during the Chintoka invasion. They seem like powerful tough ships.

I used to ignore Galaxies at first, but during the Dominion war, I was impressed by what I saw, and began cheering for them again.


It seems like if a Galaxy is damaged, as in warp core, then phaser power is affected, at least that's an idea. Seems a bit silly, and a flaw, but that's what seems to happen.

 

[barnaclelapse]

No.

The Yamato was destroyed by technology so far advanced that it made starships comparable to sticks and stones in their effectiveness against it. The Enterprise-J would have fared no better.

The Odyssey held its own without shields before an until-then unknown superior force, regardless of it's physical size, sacrificed itself to destroy it.

The Enterprise was lost not because of its specs but a cheat going around them.

All three were lost because they needed to be for story's sake. Nothing would have happened any different if it were an Sovereign, Defiant, Intrepid, Akira, or other starship class in their places. God himself transformed a la Optimus Prime into a starship would have fared no better.

None, it's been said, were lost during the Dominion war, and the ones we saw were kicking ass and taking numbers. The Defiant was beaten left and right and destroyed during DS9's run (and replaced with another ship with inferior carpeting...) yet is it a failure? The Intrepid Class survived encounters with Borg battleships yet have we seen more than one or two others in the fleet? Exactly how many more Mirandas are there than beings in the known universe, and how many do we have to vaporize before we see the last of them?

Botox, Emo, Sovereign.

We don't know how many of the other ship classes were lost over the years. The fan favorite Akira could have the worst record in the fleet. Do you know how many Nova's were lost studying pre-warp cultures? Have a seat, girlfriend, we gotta talk.

They could have blown up the E-D every week for 200 episodes and a single line of dialogue would make it superior to a fleet of Dominion battleships. If the story demands it, a travel pod could outmatch a Borg dysonsphere.

It's a TV show.

Lies!

Lies!

You can't prove that!

The rest of what you said makes sense though. Good points across the board.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

As an exploration ship, the Galaxy class was a success - the Enterprise's accomplishments are proof.
From a military POV, the galaxy was an embarassment. The warp core was vulnerable, the nacelles were vulnerable, the power system was vulnerable, etc

In DS9:Way of the warrior 2, The Defiant (without shields) withstands fire from a kingon ship (considerably larger than a BOP) for minutes, and is in pretty good shape afterwards.

In VOY:Equinox 2, Voyager survives fire from the Equinox (whose crew knew voyager's shield frequencies) for minutes and is in pretty good shape afterwards.

In Generations, Enterprise is destroyed by an ancient BOP (who knew its shield frequencies only at the beginning of the battle) in minutes. Pathetic.
In TNG:Cause and Effect, an old federation ship strifes enterprise's nacelle. Enterprise blows up less than a minute later.
In DS9:The Jem'hadar, both the Federation and the Dominion wanted to prove its strength to the other party. The feds decide to send a galaxy class - with predictable results: an embarassment for the federation.
In DS9:The Search, The Defiant did much better than the odyssey.

And then there are, of course, the numerous episodes where enterprise's power grid or warp core seem to want desperately to fail, and do so as often as possible.

 

[Star Wolf]

As an exploration ship, the Galaxy class was a success - the Enterprise's accomplishments are proof.
From a military POV, the galaxy was an embarassment. the warp core was vulnerable, the nacelles were vulnerable, the power system was vulnerable, etc

In DS9:Way of the warrior 2, The Defiant withstands fire from a kingon ship (considerably larger than a BOP) for minutes, and is in pretty good shape afterwards.

In VOY:Equinox 2, Voyager survives fire from the Equinox (whose crew knew voyager's shield frequencies) for minutes and is in pretty good shape afterwards.

In Generations, Enterprise is destroyed by an ancient BOP (who knew its shield frequencies only at the beginning of the battle) in minutes. Pathetic.
In TNG:Cause and Effect, an ald federation ship strifes enterprise's nacelle. Enterprise blows up less than a minute later.
In DS9:The Jem'hadar, both the Federation and the Dominion wanted to prove its strength to the other party. The feds decide to send a galaxy class - with predictable results: an embarassment for the federation.
In DS9:The Search, The Defiant did much better than the odyssey.

And then there are, of course, the numerous episodes where enterprise's power grid or warp core seem to want desperately to fail, and do so as often as possible.

The power of the Federation is not measured in phaser banks and torpedo tubes. Worf made that mistake when describing Enterprise to the first Klingons he came across.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The power of the Federation is not measured in phaser banks and torpedo tubes. Worf made that mistake when describing Enterprise to the first Klingons he came across.

That depends on the kind of power you're referring to.
Military power is measured in "phaser banks and torpedo tubes" and a few other things.

Plus - I never said the Federation is militarily weak. I only said that the galaxy class is a military embarassment.

 

[BenRoethig]

Yes. It was a ship designed for a perceived semi-safe golden age that was never quite reality. It ended up too bulky with too many weaknesses.