June 6 - anniversary of great military victory, but which one?

[Bloodwhiner]

Most people associate June 6 with the Normandy Invasion but that date also covers the anniversary of the Battle of Midway in the Pacific. The Battle of Midway took place from June 4 until June 7, 1942.

So which was the greater victory?

I'd argue Midway as it was the turning point for the Pacific battle. It also had a much smaller and technically inferior US Navy defeating the Japanese for the first time in a truly decisive manner. The Japanese lost four frontline carriers, two heavy cruisers and several smaller ships. They also lost numerous aircraft and their crews.

The US lost the carrier Yorktown and many flightcrews (particularly Torpedo Squadron 8) were mauled.

The battle put the Japanese Navy on the defensive and it never recovered.

In contrast the Normandy landings did open a third front (Italy and the USSR being the other two) but the Germans were likely already defeated by the time of the landings. The Soviet Army won the European theater killing 4 out of 5 Axis troops killed in the war. The Normandy invasion is not even in the top ten battles of the ETO in terms of personnel involved or deaths. Some have argued that if the invasions had failed it would have only delayed Germany's defeat by a few months.

So - which was the greater victory?

 

[Plecostomus]

Tough call, the invasion was important but the Battle Of Midway proved that the US Navy could in fact kick serious ass.

I'm more of a fan of epic naval engagement so Midway for me.

 

[Omnius]

For me, it's D-Day. It's the start of the liberation of Europe. Leading up to the liberation of my own country. And D-Day was not only a tactical decision but also a political one. If only to prevent the Russians from "liberating" the whole of Europe.

 

[msbae]

I say Normandy was more important. The Japanese Empire was over-extended and facing an enemy that was more like the Wrath of God than a competing world power. Their destruction was inevitable. The Third Reich was the most despicable and dangerous thing Humanity ever saw. They had to be destroyed and it would take the Allies moving Heaven and Earth to do it too.

Besides, General Patton pissing in the Rhine as he crossed it is much more manly and bad ass than Admiral Halsey 'returning the medals he got for visiting Japan to their original owners.'

 

[Goliath]

So which was the greater victory?

Neither.

Both are dwarfed by Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive into Belarus and eastern Poland, which began on 22 June 1944.

Compared to the destruction of Nazi Germany's Army Group Centre, both Normandy and Midway were sideshows.

 

[Bloodwhiner]

^^
no argument that numerous eastern front battles dwarfed the allied invasions (all of them combined - Africa, Sicily and France hardly compare to Mursk). The war on the Eastern front goes beyond our comprehension.

However Midway does go beyond any sea battle the Soviets ever took part in.

But this was for battles occurring on June 6.

 

[Mallory]

Midway, hands down.

 

[Lindley]

Midway was won almost by accident, though. If that one dive-bomber squadron hadn't gotten lost and been late to the battle, things may have gone the other way.

Due to their tardy arrival, the Japanese CAP had been drawn down from altitude by the torpedo bombers *and* a number of them were refueling on the carrier flight deck when the dive bombers showed up unopposed. That's why they did so much damage; fuel go boom.

Until that lucky break, the American planes were falling left and right to the Japanese defense.

At least, that's my memory from reading The Price of Admiralty. Recommended if you like well-told military history, by the way, as is The Mask of Command by the same author.

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

Really and truly, Midway was a comedy of errors. Had this flight not been here, or this ship there, it could have gone the other way. Of course, it was a great victory. The IJN would not be able to mount an offensive operation until the Battle of Leyte Gulf, several years later.

As for D-Day, as far as cliches go, we have to say that it was the beginning of the end. So D-Day is the "greater" victory.

 

[sidious618]

D-Day. It was so impressively planned and so perfectly executed.

 

[Skywalker]

D-Day. The Japanese were on borrowed time the moment they attacked Pearl Harbor. The liberation of Europe was still very much up in the air.

 

[Tim]

D-Day. It was so impressively planned and so perfectly executed.

Are you joking? D-Day started off as a major disaster (aerial bombardments in the wrong places, paratroopers landing off-target, choppy waters sinking troop transports, etc.).

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

So which was the greater victory?

Neither.

Both are dwarfed by Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive into Belarus and eastern Poland, which began on 22 June 1944.

Compared to the destruction of Nazi Germany's Army Group Centre, both Normandy and Midway were sideshows.

Shhh, Americans like to think we single-handily won the war. Not good for morale to say otherwise. Nothing to see here folks move along.

 

[Skywalker]

So which was the greater victory?

Neither.

Both are dwarfed by Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive into Belarus and eastern Poland, which began on 22 June 1944.

Compared to the destruction of Nazi Germany's Army Group Centre, both Normandy and Midway were sideshows.

Shhh, Americans like to think we single-handily won the war. Not good for morale to say otherwise. Nothing to see here folks move along.

Some of us know better, of course.

If the Nazis hadn't had to deal with the Soviets in the East, D-Day probably wouldn't have gone nearly so well for the Allies.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Symbolically? D-Day without a doubt.

As far as being a turning point? Midway wins, but I'm convinced the US would have won either way. It gave us more flexibility, but we had superior production and would have overwhelmed Japan eventually.

So I still think the Normandy invasion is more important, even if, yes, the Soviets broke the German military machine and had far more important battles.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Normandy may not have been as important for the overall war effort as it is often presented, but it's significance can't be exaggerated for post-war Europe. The American/British advance from the West was crucial in stopping Stalin from getting an even bigger part of Europe under his control.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So which was the greater victory?

Neither.

Both are dwarfed by Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive into Belarus and eastern Poland, which began on 22 June 1944.

Compared to the destruction of Nazi Germany's Army Group Centre, both Normandy and Midway were sideshows.

Shhh, Americans like to think we single-handily won the war. Not good for morale to say otherwise. Nothing to see here folks move along.

The OP specifically said he was referring to battles that took place on June 6th, never said anything about Americans winning the war on their own, and D-Day wasn't an American-only operation anyway, so I fail to see the merits of this particular criticism in regard to this topic.

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

Symbolically? D-Day without a doubt.

As far as being a turning point? Midway wins, but I'm convinced the US would have won either way. It gave us more flexibility, but we had superior production and would have overwhelmed Japan eventually.

So I still think the Normandy invasion is more important, even if, yes, the Soviets broke the German military machine and had far more important battles.

I agree with you that the US would have won the war in the Pacific regardless. I will submit that Midway shortened the war by at the very least, several months.

The Normandy invasion created something far more important than symbolism. It created a second front for Germany. I mean, a major second front. Italy was another front yes, but that was mostly the Italians with German support. France was all Germany fighting.

 

[Bloodwhiner]

It was a major second front as far as the American and British were concerned. The Soviets were happy for anything to help relieve some pressure. For the Germans it was a serious sideshow.. But the western front was never the major focus of the war.

On D-Day, 157 German divisions were stationed in the Soviet Union, versus 59 in France, Belgium and the Netherlands (and 26 in Italy). While it should be noted that many of the Eastern front divisions were vastly under-strength due to losses (losses that came from fighting the Soviets it should be noted). But in comparison, units on the Western front were often not top front-line units. There were some of course, but many were made of older men, youth or conscripted eastern European prisoners.

As for Midway being a lucky accident, the real victory in Midway came from intelligence. If the US had not acted upon that intelligence properly then the PTO would have easily taken another year. Japan would have still lost, the atom bombs would have still been dropped but getting to a place to launch those operations from would have taken longer.

The loss of Midway would have placed Hawaii within reach of Japanese land based bombers. It likely would have meant the loss of all US carriers in the Pacific as well and potentially the withdrawal of many Naval forces to San Diego and San Francisco.

A loss at Normandy would have extended the ETO a few months possibly and the Soviets would have had more of Europe under their umbrella. But by the time of D-Day, the Germans had already lost and were collapsing. At the time of Midway, Japan was still on the offensive and the American forces were collapsing.

I would argue it was Midway that was the more crucial victory and given the disparity in force strength, the more impressive victory.

 

[FPAlpha]

Neither.

Both are dwarfed by Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive into Belarus and eastern Poland, which began on 22 June 1944.

Compared to the destruction of Nazi Germany's Army Group Centre, both Normandy and Midway were sideshows.

Shhh, Americans like to think we single-handily won the war. Not good for morale to say otherwise. Nothing to see here folks move along.

Some of us know better, of course.

If the Nazis hadn't had to deal with the Soviets in the East, D-Day probably wouldn't have gone nearly so well for the Allies.

Even with what the Germans had at that time in Normandy they could have held off the Invasion.

Their one crucial mistake was not to recognize that it was a full on invasion.. they believed it to be a Dieppe style probing attack and waited it to happen elsewhere (Cherbourg or Calais for example). Had Rommel been able to conduct the defense on his own the Allies would have faced entire tank divisions at the beaches themselves and most likely would have been thrown right back into the Canal.

As to the thread itself.. Midway.
It broke the back of the Japanese Navy severely hindering their operations so long that the US had enough times to build more ships and go on the offensive.

Normandy as impressive and interesting as it was can't be considered that important for the entire war because the Soviets most likely could have dealt with the entire german army by that point.. it would have maybe taken a bit longer but they would have conquered all of Germany and the political landscape of today would have been quite different.

However Normandy and the allied successess there were an immeasurable boost to alied morale and politically very important for the post-WW2 era.

And being a tabletop gamer who plays historic WW2 games i already play US armored and infantry troops and am building up a German armored Panzergrenadier force to oppose them in Normandy!