Opinions about Trip and T'Pol

[Middleman]

Can't see why Hard core Fans should get thier Jaws Locked because TnT marry and perhaps have children. That doesn't take away from Spock or his parents.

After all TOS came years before Enterprise and it is set in stone in many peoples head.

They can pretend that TnT was lost in time and forgotten or some such.

How much has cme out about people who had been known as heros in our day but in their own period there were things that are just now coming out for us to see.

If you haven't already seen it, you'd be surprised at the stupidest things some these "hard cores" would piss and moan about. Oops...excuse me...Star Trek fans with different points of view critiquing the various nuances of Enterprise. Trust me on this, if Trip & T'Pol had gotten married or Elizabeth had lived, you would have heard an up roar.

I go along with the BEEB's being at fault because they were chicken.

I agree with you that they were chicken, the question is why?

 

[commodore64]

That's hilarious. And hon, you don't have to get all OCD about sources. I'm just trying to cut down on the "I heard that so-and-so hated that such-and-such!" I don't have concrete links to offer all the time either, but when I personally laid eyes on or listened to an interview, I can offer that up as more than some...thing...that I heard...somewhere...making the rounds of the rumor mill, and not tied down to anything solid. The gossip that can morph into total silliness, like playing "telephone."

Gotcha!

It sounds as if she wasn't really factoring in Sarek and Amanda there.

Interesting you should bring that up. We don't really know how Sarek and Amanda hooked up or why. There's lots of non-canon books that offer all sorts of reasons. In Journey to Babel, Sarek indicates he married Amanda b/c it was logical. I always took it to mean he loved her. I'm not sure, though, to Jolene's other points, Sarek had been trelling up like T'Pol had in order to "find love."

And there's Spock, a Vulcan wrestling with his emotional side, just as T'Pol had to wrestle with the emotions she had unleashed and couldn't put back in the box.

Not just Spock. I think all the Vulcans. But it's interesting that in TOS we really only saw Spock lose it when introduced to spores, Pon Farr, ancient Vulcan ways -- all out of his control.

T'Pol willingly seeks emotion by taking drugs (under her control).

And let's not forget what T'Pol said in Impulse, she indicated Vulcans are always emotional and that they meditate and other things to prevent emotion from leaking out. So, why does T'Pol do drugs to lower her inhibitions about emotions when it seems not meditating would do the trick? I think it's just ... well, crap. Shoddy writing.

I sympathize with her, playing a Vulcan at war with herself. But I found T'Pol's situation compelling, precisely because I'd watched Spock do it for years.

Spock wasn't reduced to T&A. I don't know. Spock is my favorite character in all the Star Treks (well, Leonard Nimoy's Spock) and possibly all science fiction. His character is interesting -- he's a guy who doesn't fit in, caught between two worlds while clinging to non-emotion. He complains he can never tell his mother he loves her in TOS (under the influence). And yet in every situation he has the utmost valor, so much loyalty he's willing to let his father die in order to save Enterprise. He's a man of supreme reasoning. Supreme loyalty.

T'Pol was not. In Jolene's own words:

"The concepts with the shows aren't the problem; I think the concepts are amazing," Blalock told the magazine "The issue is the dialogue. I personally believe that T'Pol should have more of her Vulcan culture. I don't believe she should be so desperate to be like everyone else, because the original STAR TREK which I grew up with, had a very simple message that I took from it, and that is that not everyone is like me, and I'm not perfect, and nobody's perfect, and that's okay. That really helped me. I think that T'Pol could be okay with being Vulcan, she shouldn't have to want to be Vulcan. In the dialogue... why is it that when we're trying to teach each other something, all of our analogies involve Earth lore? Don't our cultures have their own lore that might make for good messages."

Ironically, Blalock'a attitude is in line with that of many old-guard TREK fans who see ENTERPRISE as diluting the core elements of the franchise mythology; for Blalock the damage is done in small increments. "In [the first season's] 'Shadows of P'Jem', they made this huge story about how Vulcans were undermining Starfleet and had some kind of agenda, but they never went to readdress it." says Blalock "Then there's this episode in which T'Pol gets sick, terminally ill, and they never readdress it. There's the characteristic where Vulcans don't eat food with their hands, and yet they'll write scenes where T'Pol is eating popcorn at a movie or Trip will bring T'Pol a peach. It's just so strange to me, and I think that as a character you should be okay with who you are and or who you're meant to be."

Bingo. Spock was at ease with himself. The IDIC wasn't just meant as a cool Vulcan thing. Spock was IDIC. Gene Roddenberry endeared himself to fans by creating a character who was wildly different and yet loved for his difference. IDIC. We, the audience, identified with that notion of being loved for being different.

T'Pol wasn't.

T'Pol as introduced was a great character with a lot of potential who in the end, in Jolene's own words, just appears lost. Jolene, through every single interview, is disappointed because in essence she couldn't be a Spock. I am, too. I was excited to see a cool female character make it to the screen where she could just be herself and be loved for it.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, that's where Enterprise -- the show -- really lost me. They created a character who needed to be loved so badly she did drugs. And then tried to make me believe that doing drugs and changing yourself for someone you love is okay. I'm sure others took it differently, but it appears like the most basic afterschool special. Don't do drugs to have a guy like you, m'kay?

She disliked Coto? I never ran across that.

Some of his writing. I included the quotes above in response to GBlews. In summary, she said:
* Coto had some good ideas and thought he'd help save her character
* She'd get with Trip because T'Pol had done drugs
* She didn't like the will they/won't they aspect of their relationship

What I got out of that is Coto's writing is a mixed bag.

 

[Penguin]

Beats me. But part of the answer may lie in TATV.

Obviously at least Bragga knew the axe was coming.

Having a third part of Demons/Terra prime arc in which Tnt at last reveral their feelings, Trip proposes to t-Pol and wedding bells can be heard would foul up Braggas "Vanetine"

I am still convinced that there was malice of forethought in TATV. Bragga had every intention of breaking up TnT and killing off Trip in that Episode. It didn't just come to him out of the blue while writing the episode.

No one is going to convince me that Bragga liked the Trip character and didn't know why he killed him.

You don't kill off a main character and don't know why. especially if you really liked the character.

Still say too that Bragga was a A/TPer and getting Trip out of the way would allow others who felt the same to imagine that Archer and T-Pol got together later. (See C64's signature.)

 

[Middleman]

Beats me. But part of the answer may lie in TATV.

Obviously at least Bragga knew the axe was coming.

Having a third part of Demons/Terra prime arc in which Tnt at last reveral their feelings, Trip proposes to t-Pol and wedding bells can be heard would foul up Braggas "Vane tine"

I am still convinced that there was malice of forethought in TATV. Bragga had every intention of breaking up TnT and killing off Trip in that Episode. It didn't just come to him out of the blue while writing the episode.

No one is going to convince me that Bragga liked the Trip character and didn't know why he killed him.

You don't kill off a main character and don't know why. especially if you really liked the character.

As I'm sure you know by now I am a strong believer in the series creators giving a huge middle finger to the endlessly complaining fans by killing the two things that most fans cared about in the series. If you haven't seen this before, here is Braga's poor excuse for an explanation.

Monday, August 13, 2007
Brannon Braga Speaks At VegasCon
Brannon Braga took to the stage at this year's Creation Las Vegas Star Trek Convention, which he called a ‘nostalgic experience.’ for him. Braga invited to fans to ask him questions and get whatever they wanted off their chests.

Later Braga voiced his regret on the Enterprise finale 'These Are the Voyages'.
"I do have some regrets about that final episode. It didn’t quite creatively align with the rest of the season. ….The final episode was very controversial and I do have some regrets about it. What we were trying to do was send a valentine to all the Star Trek shows. Enterprise just happened to be the show on at the time and it turns out the episode was a failure. It had some great stuff init and it was a cool concept, but it was languid. I don’t know if it fully delivered and it really pissed off the cast. It was a hybrid show. Rick [Berman] and I were involved in the franchise for years (Rick for 18 - me for 15). We felt like we wanted to send a valentine to the show, but I do concur it was not a complete success."

Braga went on to add this.
"It was the final episode, we knew the series was over and we could do anything we wanted. Trip was always my favorite character on the show and I wanted to….I just wanted to kill him. I cant give you a coherent response. We wanted to do something that had emotional impact and had consequences which is something we were never allowed to do."

Still say too that Bragga was a A/TPer and getting Trip out of the way would allow others who felt the same to imagine that Archer and T-Pol got together later.

I don't think that Bragga was a A/TPer, but then again, what the heck do I know. As I sated in an earlier post, I didn't see any hint of a future Archer/T'Pol pairing coming out of TATV, but if it was there, IMO it was just another middle finger to the fans by trying to stir up controversy. However, as I also stated in an earlier post, there is no point in discussing that particular issue any further. CBS/Paramount put that puppy to bed two years ago with "The Good That Men Do" and again last year with "Kobayashi Maru" (see my signature). We now know what officially happened to Trip and to Trip & T'Pol's relationship after TATV (or at least until something comes out on screen to contradict it). IMO, that dead horse can't be beaten any more.

 

[Mach5]

We now know what officially happened to Trip and to Trip & T'Pol's relationship after TATV (or at least until something comes out on screen to contradict it).

True that. Trek lit may not be canon, but it's the closest thing we have to canon, and that's good enough for me.

And until some future film or TV show contradicts the novels (which I honestly doubt would happen), the novels are "it" (and the current PTB kinda agree with me, since Bob Orci is self proclaimed Trek Lit fanatic).

 

[Middleman]

True that. Trek lit may not be canon, but it's the closest thing we have to canon, and that's good enough for me.

And until some future film or TV show contradicts the novels (which I honestly doubt would happen), the novels are "it"

That's my theory as well and I'm sticking to it.

(and the current PTB kinda agree with me, since Bob Orci is self proclaimed Trek Lit fanatic).

I heard that as well and in fact I read that he will stick with the books as much as is practical.

 

[Penguin]

Middleman, what Bragga said in VEgas was really great double speak. He said much but said nothng. He says that it was a great concept but a failure but still a valentine to the Star Treak series. That it didn't alighn with the series whatever that means.

He should have been a politican in Washington.

It was only when he spoke about killing off Trip that he was really lying in his teeth. Or he was smoking something really powerful.

Mybe he can claim temporary insantity..

"Yeah, I killed 50 people, I saw red and blacked out and when I woke up I had made hamburger out of 50 people.

Or yeah, I blacked out and when I woke I had killed off the most popular character on the Enterprise series.

Now why don't I believe that?

Middle Finger? He gave the fans that and Mooned them too.

 

[Middleman]

He said much but said nothing.
He should have been a politician in Washington.

You know, being able to speak out of "both sides of his mouth" like that is a great talent. He truly is a gifted person.

It was only when he spoke about killing off Trip that he was really lying in his teeth. Or he was smoking something really powerful.
Maybe he can claim temporary insanity..
Or yeah, I blacked out and when I woke I had killed off the most popular character on the Enterprise series.
Now why don't I believe that?
Middle Finger? He gave the fans that and Mooned them too.

Penguin: Why don't you tell us how you really feel? Please, don't hold back!

Do you know what I do when I get pissed of thinking about what those morons did with Enterprise? I pick up "The Good That Men Do" again and start re-reading it. It's great therapy knowing that some of their CBS/Paramount colleagues went out of their way to clean up the turds that those two left.

 

[Penguin]

Aw shucks middleman. I am too shy to really say what I feel. so I go easy and keep it mild.

Read TGTMD and Maru too. Eagerly looking forward to the Vulcan War under the wings of the Raptor.

I am a simple minded soul so it doesn't take much to amuse me just a good book a case of beer and no one to bother me while I am reading and drinking some suds.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

It sounds as if she wasn't really factoring in Sarek and Amanda there.

Interesting you should bring that up. We don't really know how Sarek and Amanda hooked up or why.

In my original post, I was commenting on Jolene saying: "T'Pol's a Vulcan — how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional..." No matter how Sarek and Amanda got together, one was a Vulcan who entered a relationship, and the other was an emotional human. That's what I was referring to. (For the record, I think Sarek's "It was the logical thing to do" refers to love, also.)

And there's Spock, a Vulcan wrestling with his emotional side, just as T'Pol had to wrestle with the emotions she had unleashed and couldn't put back in the box.

Not just Spock. I think all the Vulcans. But it's interesting that in TOS we really only saw Spock lose it when introduced to spores, Pon Farr, ancient Vulcan ways -- all out of his control.

I'm remembering the end of "Amok Time," when Spock, overjoyed to see Kirk alive again, bursts into a broad smile, takes Kirk by the shoulders and cries out happily, "Jim!" He didn't seem to be under the influence of anything except joy. I wouldn't call his outburst a lack-of-control thing. And there's that moment in "The Empath" when Spock is sitting beside the dying McCoy, and totally betrays his caring for McCoy with the way he tenderly touches and holds him. No spores around then, either.

I sympathize with her, playing a Vulcan at war with herself. But I found T'Pol's situation compelling, precisely because I'd watched Spock do it for years.

Spock wasn't reduced to T&A.

I wasn't referring to T&A. In my original post, I was commenting in response to one of the magazine quotes: "...Blalock confirmed as well that dealing with T'Pol's emotions was difficult for her as a performer."

I get the impression that Jolene had a different conception of the character than TPTB did. It happens sometimes. Sure, the writing staff might have done a better job executing their premise (a Vulcan with unusual sensitivity toward emotions is physiologically compromised by an illness, and a resulting addiction stemming from that illness, resulting in permanent damage to her ability to suppress emotions) if they'd planned out a years-long arc for the character and been able to stay consistent throughout. But even if they had, I sense Jolene would have preferred a different T'Pol.

They created a character who needed to be loved so badly she did drugs.

She didn't tell Phlox in "Damage" that she started ingesting trellium because she "needed to be loved," or anything close to that.

From "Damage":

T'Pol: The initial effects [of exposure to trellium] were overwhelming, but as they began to wear off I discovered I was able to access certain emotions. I wanted more.

This seems consistent with T'Pol's established curiosity, especially about emotions ("Fusion").

And then tried to make me believe that doing drugs and changing yourself for someone you love is okay.

See above for the reason T'Pol said she began ingesting trellium.

And judging from the fits and starts of the T/T relationship--the secrets, the miscommunication, the hurt feelings--I didn't see any message that drug abuse was okay. Even if you operate under the assumption that she "changed herself for someone she loved" (which I didn't), I didn't see a blissfully successful relationship resulting.

Braga went on to add this.
"It was the final episode, we knew the series was over and we could do anything we wanted. Trip was always my favorite character on the show and I wanted to….I just wanted to kill him. I cant give you a coherent response. We wanted to do something that had emotional impact and had consequences which is something we were never allowed to do."

No one is going to convince me that Bragga liked the Trip character and didn't know why he killed him.

You don't kill off a main character and don't know why. especially if you really liked the character.

Braga may not have been particularly articulate during his convention appearance; we've all had our foot-in-mouth moments that we'd like to do over so we can clearly say what we mean.

But he wouldn't be the first writer to kill off a character he genuinely liked, in order to explore the emotional impact of that loss. Star Trek II, anyone?

Spoiler: Trek XI reference

Or the Star Trek movie? I read interviews at MTV.com in which the writers chose to destroy Vulcan because it was a plot turn that had consequences, rather than being a temporary device that would be reset by the end, a la most TV. And damn, Amanda is dead. That won't be reset either, kids. And both of these things had a huge emotional impact for the characters and their "world."

The fact that the premise of TATV (explore the emotional impact of a beloved character's death) wasn't executed effectively doesn't mean it is a bad idea. It's been used countless times before (Star Trek II is a handy example), and it will be used again. The trick is to do it well.

 

[Mach5]

But he wouldn't be the first writer to kill off a character he genuinely liked, in order to explore the emotional impact of that loss. Star Trek II, anyone?

Wait, did you just try to compare this:

to this: (?)

Oh baby, emotional impact, f*** yeah!

The fact that the premise of TATV (explore the emotional impact of a beloved character's death) wasn't executed effectively doesn't mean it is a bad idea. It's been used countless times before (Star Trek II is a handy example), and it will be used again. The trick is to do it well.

Absolutely.

I was never a fan of conspiracy theorys or stuff like that, and all this "middle finger" talk may actually sound childish and naive at first, but what troubles me is the fact that Brannon Braga was/is this experienced writer, and I'm pretty sure he knows what it takes to create an emotional impact. Now, Braga claims he didn't expect TATV to end up like it did, but isn't a seasoned writer (like himself) supposed to recognize shit when he sees it, let alone writes it?

I mean, I can't really imagine Berman and Braga in the process of writing TATV, discussing scenes, and thinking: "Oh, this is gonna work."

Berman going: "Oh, this is so gonna move people. Trip electrocutes himself to save his captain... He winks to Archer, Archer stares at Phlox (such drama)... Malcolm Reed all bitchy about bad seats, being so affected by his best friends death that he picks on little things...

Oh yeah, and you should definitely use those lines you wrote for Scott while you were drunk the other day, how did it go? 'Time heals all wound's, absence... Heart stronger, shit's tricky?'

Oh, this is going to be so good that the fans are going to really take it as a total freaking Valentine and shit.

 

[Penguin]

Mach5, something like that.

I wish I was articulate as you.

I just mumble some crap and hope that someone understands it.

Good points you made.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

But he wouldn't be the first writer to kill off a character he genuinely liked, in order to explore the emotional impact of that loss. Star Trek II, anyone?

Wait, did you just try to compare this:

[Star Trek II pictures]

to this: (?)

[TATV pictures]

Oh baby, emotional impact, f*** yeah!

I was pointing out the similarity of the two ideas, not the execution of those ideas. I also said:

The fact that the premise of TATV (explore the emotional impact of a beloved character's death) wasn't executed effectively...

I was never a fan of conspiracy theorys or stuff like that, and all this "middle finger" talk may actually sound childish and naive at first, but what troubles me is the fact that Brannon Braga was/is this experienced writer, and I'm pretty sure he knows what it takes to create an emotional impact. Now, Braga claims he didn't expect TATV to end up like it did, but isn't a seasoned writer (like himself) supposed to recognize shit when he sees it, let alone writes it?

Not necessarily. Writers--even great writers--are notoriously the least capable of giving an objective assessment of the effectiveness of their own work. They are, by definition, too close to the material and too tainted by it--they have loads of stuff in their heads that may not have made it clearly onto the page.

I mean, I can't really imagine Berman and Braga in the process of writing TATV, discussing scenes, and thinking: "Oh, this is gonna work."

Oh wow, I can. There have been many, many times that I wrote something, and I gave it to a beta or an editor for their assessment, and the feedback is totally different from what I intended for the scene or story. It doesn't automatically make me a terrible writer overall (I hope ), but it does mean that I didn't get what was in my head onto the page, and something got misread or misinterpreted as a result.

The "mind-movie" playing inside a writer's head is almost impossible to put down on the page in such a way that the reader or viewer sees the exact same "movie" in their head. The trick is for the writers to keep the gap between their mind-movie and the reader/viewer's mind-movie to be as small as possible. Sometimes the gap is as wiiiiide as a chasm. I'd put TATV in the "chasm" category for a lot of people.

It does not make sense for a professional writer to knowingly write a badly-told story. If it's a teleplay, it may impact the TV show negatively (ratings, viewership, fan base). If it's a screenplay, it will need another rewrite, or it won't get sold, or the writer will be replaced by another writer. And a writer who gains a reputation for writing crap...not really good for the career long-term.

Of course, there is also the George Lucas Syndrome, in which a writer thinks he's writing brilliant stuff, but there is no one close enough to him with the knowledge or job security to tell him the script just ain't working.

 

[commodore64]

In my original post, I was commenting on Jolene saying: "T'Pol's a Vulcan — how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional..." No matter how Sarek and Amanda got together, one was a Vulcan who entered a relationship, and the other was an emotional human. That's what I was referring to. (For the record, I think Sarek's "It was the logical thing to do" refers to love, also.)

I got that. What I was saying is that: we don't know why they hooked up. I was saying, I see no comparison other than a human and a Vulcan are together. I do know, according to Jolene, T'Pol went after Trip because of drugs. I doubt that's how Sarek and Amanda wound up together.

I'm remembering the end of "Amok Time," when Spock, overjoyed to see Kirk alive again, bursts into a broad smile, takes Kirk by the shoulders and cries out happily, "Jim!" He didn't seem to be under the influence of anything except joy. I wouldn't call his outburst a lack-of-control thing. And there's that moment in "The Empath" when Spock is sitting beside the dying McCoy, and totally betrays his caring for McCoy with the way he tenderly touches and holds him. No spores around then, either.

The "Jim!" was definitely because -- under the influence of Pon Farr -- he nearly killed his buddy. Let's not forget the guy is half-human. Spock never took drugs and tried to kill Kirk. And there are layers and layers of him being noble added on top of that.

I guess you see Spock and T'Pol as being very much alike, including their journey. I think T'Pol got the short-end of that stick. Spock, to me, was -- as I indicated in my earlier post -- always above reproach. T'Pol was not.

I wasn't referring to T&A.

I did. Your comment was you saw them as very much alike. I was saying, "I thought T'Pol was reduced to: "beautiful babe" rather than "interesting, noble and loyal Vulcan."

Before I get the "I knew it, Commodore64 wanted T'Pol to be with Archer and that's what she means when she says 'loyal"!" No. Loyal means someone who is not impaired and can help the ship. I'm a little concerned that she was shooting up during her daytime hours while on the job. She's obviously impaired in Azati Prime, either through the affects of cold turkey or because she shot up earlier. I don't see her own personal gain, interactions with the crew - Cmdr Tucker - as noble.

I very much like T'Pol, especially in seasons 1 and 2. In season 3, I like her journey, but was incredibly disappointed she was never able to redeem herself. Rather than show redemtpion, she just got "more Vulcan" in the Vulcan arc and then kinda schizophrenic toward the end of the year.

I get the impression that Jolene had a different conception of the character than TPTB did. It happens sometimes. Sure, the writing staff might have done a better job executing their premise (a Vulcan with unusual sensitivity toward emotions is physiologically compromised by an illness, and a resulting addiction stemming from that illness, resulting in permanent damage to her ability to suppress emotions) if they'd planned out a years-long arc for the character and been able to stay consistent throughout. But even if they had, I sense Jolene would have preferred a different T'Pol.

I think you're making some assumptions. If they had created an arc that showed taking a wrong turn (drugs) and then divorcing herself of that T'Pol to win the accolades her colleagues, Jolene may've very much liked that T'Pol. T'Pol should face an uphill battle, challenges to test her. What shouldn't happen is that those challenges win.

She didn't tell Phlox in "Damage" that she started ingesting trellium because she "needed to be loved," or anything close to that.

From "Damage":
Quote:
T'Pol: The initial effects [of exposure to trellium] were overwhelming, but as they began to wear off I discovered I was able to access certain emotions. I wanted more.

Here's the total dilaog. I bolded what I thought was the most relevant piece, which Jolene agrees with in quotes already provided from her.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]T'POL: Doctor.
PHLOX: Yes, this will just take a moment. (she grabs his arm) What is it?
PHLOX: (after examining her) There's a good deal of residual trellium in your bloodstream. How long have you been doing this?
T'POL: Three months.
PHLOX: I need to know precisely what has been happening.
T'POL: When I was exposed to trellium aboard the Seleya, it affected me in a way that I wasn't prepared for.
PHLOX: As I recall, you were homicidal and paranoid.
T'POL: The initial effects were overwhelming, but as they began to wear off I discovered I was able to access certain emotions. I wanted more. I began to experiment by ingesting small amounts of trellium. I devised a way to inject it into my bloodstream.
PHLOX: You must have known it was dangerous. Trellium exposure is deadly to Vulcans. It eats away at the neural pathways.
T'POL: I thought, in small amounts, it would be safe. At first, I was able to control the new emotions. My interactions with the crew improved.
PHLOX: Commander Tucker, for example. When did you realise you were becoming addicted? [/FONT]

Go back and watch the dialog and it becomes clear that while Phlox says it's an 'example,' he doesn't believe it. It seems clear to me, he means the crew = Cmdr. Tucker in her statement.

And judging from the fits and starts of the T/T relationship--the secrets, the miscommunication, the hurt feelings--I didn't see any message that drug abuse was okay. Even if you operate under the assumption that she "changed herself for someone she loved" (which I didn't), I didn't see a blissfully successful relationship resulting.

I think it's safe to say, I won't see the same things you do in the relationship. I saw a couple put together by Phlox becuse Trip couldn't sleep. I saw and heard T'Pol claim that Trip was why she investigated in trellium. For me, pretty much case closed.

I'm sure you saw some things I didn't, for various reasons.

The fact that the premise of TATV (explore the emotional impact of a beloved character's death) wasn't executed effectively doesn't mean it is a bad idea. It's been used countless times before (Star Trek II is a handy example), and it will be used again. The trick is to do it well.

Agreed. Just because the execution wasn't as good as TWoK doesn't mean it's a terrible idea. Also, I saw the episode very much about the future (all the stuff I personally wanted to see - like the Federation, Romulan War, etc.). I don't mind the allusion.

 

[Mach5]

Of course, there is also the George Lucas Syndrome, in which a writer thinks he's writing brilliant stuff, but there is no one close enough to him with the knowledge or job security to tell him the script just ain't working.

I think it was Roger Ebert who said that the biggest problem with Lucas is that he is surrounded by "yes-men" like Rick McCallum who lack the guts to offer constructive criticism (that's why we got all those horrible Anakin/Padme lines that still make me cringe every time I think of them).

But shouldn't it be different with Trek? How is it possible that no one (Coto, Sussman, Bormanis, whoever) who read the TATV script before shooting had the guts to point out its flaws to B&B?

Something like: "Rick, Brannon, guys... This is the last time you two are doing Trek, your swan song. Is this really what you want to be remembered for? There are some parts here that might piss off the fans, you know, and the main cast might not be happy either. And why the fuck is Trip committing suicide?"

You know, as Marc Anthony said: "The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones." (go figure )

Beebs did shitload of good back in the day, but in the and they left the stage like a couple of punks. And it's really sad.

Series finale is supposed to be something memorable, a climax, a frakking nerd-gasm. Take "Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars" as example. That mini-series wasn't perfect, but it made a Scaper feel content in the end, thinking: "Boy, what a ride!"

It really felt like Rockne O'Bannon wanted to make up to the fans for all the shock and dismay that cancellation (after a cliffhanger) caused them.

In the end, that's what a true Valentine should look like, in contrast to the middle finger we ENT fans were given.

 

[commodore64]

But shouldn't it be different with Trek? How is it possible that no one (Coto, Sussman, Bormanis, whoever) who read the TATV script before shooting had the guts to point out its flaws to B&B?

I think there were lots of flaws with the script that were pointed out. I betcha most were pointed to their character or circumstances except one: TNG influence. And I think the writers, many of whom had worked on other Treks, saw the big picture and wanted to close up Star Trek not just Enterprise. I can completely understand why the Enterprise actors would be angry. I can completely understand why the writers were satisfied. I can completely understand why Frakes and Sirtis wanted to do it. I can understand why the greater Trek community picks this as a winner. I can completely understand, although not the venom, why Enterprise fans in general don't think it's a winner.

The Valentine was to Trek fans who want continuity and to see their old favs again, not to Trip fans who are hurt he passed on. Since Trip isn't my favorite character (but my least favorite), it doesn't really bother me. If this were Archer, I'd feel differently and I suppose we'd be arguing on the opposite sides.

One more thing that bugs me. Trek in general didn't have a collaborative system. What do I mean? I mean when an actor disagreed with what his character was asked to do, he had to call Berman. I got the impression that few really had the privilege. Even Scott, who seemed like it had been written into his contract, only made the call a handful of times. Let's look at what he made the call about -- Twilight. He suggested, along with the director, that it might be more interesting if T'Pol's response to Archer's query about how much their relationship had changed had been nothing. Maybe Scott, the director and Jolene even discussed that might be more interesting. The change was made and a richer script exists because of it. Or on the flipside, Sussman created Twilight thinking Archer got grazed by a shot and then shot and killed at the end. Because the writer and director don't talk, the director assumed Archer was shot twice. Sussman indicated he was disappointed with that. If the system were collaborative, Sussman would've been able to discuss, "No, I think he should be grazed" and the director agree as Scott says, "Let's do that."

Compare this to Leonard Nimoy's experience in TOS. He read a script and saw Spock clobbered someone over the head with something. Nimoy said he didn't think Spock would do something like that. The director asked for a suggestion and Nimoy came up with the Vulcan nerve pinch. On the spot. Same with the Vulcan greeting. Someone indicated Spock greeted and Nimoy used the famous Jehova symbol that Trekkies know as "live long and prosper." That never would've happened on Ent.

When the directors, actors and writers don't have a healthy dialog, what results is a subpar product. Farscape, who you kept quoting, encouraged this dialog. Out of that, the characters thrived, actors got some input, writers got new ideas and directors reaped the rewards of something that worked. O'Bannon indicated he hated that about Star Trek: no collaboration. I don't blame him.

 

[Mach5]

saw the big picture

The big picture? This is entertainment, not the scripture.

and wanted to close up Star Trek not just Enterprise.

That's just the thing. As it turned out, Trek didn't need closing up. Beeb-Trek ended, but the voyages continued without them.

I can completely understand why Frakes and Sirtis wanted to do it.

Me to. It's not like they had anything better to do anyway.

I can understand why the greater Trek community picks this as a winner.

It does?

I can completely understand, although not the venom, why Enterprise fans in general don't think it's a winner.

So you (too) are saying that we (ENT fans) are not part of the Trek community?

The Valentine was to Trek fans who want continuity and to see their old favs again,

"Old" being the key word here

When the directors, actors and writers don't have a healthy dialog, what results is a subpar product. Farscape, who you kept quoting, encouraged this dialog. Out of that, the characters thrived, actors got some input, writers got new ideas and directors reaped the rewards of something that worked. O'Bannon indicated he hated that about Star Trek: no collaboration. I don't blame him.

Hear hear

 

[Middleman]

I can understand why the greater Trek community picks this as a winner.

It does?

I can completely understand, although not the venom, why Enterprise fans in general don't think it's a winner.

So you (too) are saying that we (ENT fans) are not part of the Trek community?

Mach5: Don't you have some quotes from Andy Mangels and others that sum up what the greater Trek community though of TATV?

It's been my experience for the last year and a half chatting with people around the internet about TATV that very few Enterprise fans liked TATV; and, if they did like it, many had only one or possibly two specific reasons for liking it. (which I can't go into because the subject has been censored here). As far as the greater Trek Community goes (what ever that means) my experience has been that those who loved TATV were generally Enterprise bashers. I'm sure no explaination is needed as to why.

 

[Middleman]

It does not make sense for a professional writer to knowingly write a badly-told story. If it's a teleplay, it may impact the TV show negatively (ratings, viewership, fan base). If it's a screenplay, it will need another rewrite, or it won't get sold, or the writer will be replaced by another writer. And a writer who gains a reputation for writing crap...not really good for the career long-term.

Of course, there is also the George Lucas Syndrome, in which a writer thinks he's writing brilliant stuff, but there is no one close enough to him with the knowledge or job security to tell him the script just ain't working.

I'm certainly not going to question your inside knowledge of how a writer's mind works, but consider this: These people (B&B) are also human beings. They were being fired and they knew it. In fact they were already replaced a year ago, and reduced to an advisory capacity. They were being vilified by Trek fans since Voyager and took heavy heavy criticism for Enterprise and Nemesis. Enterprise fans were criticizing them for the writing problems. IMDB reports that Braga actually received death threats. So, is it not beyond human nature to hoist up that "middle finger" to everyone watching on what could conceivably be the last Star Trek Episode on television ever? My cynical mind says "why not"? They had nothing to loose. I don't believe they were so incompetent that TATV turned out that way by accident, they created too much great Trek over the years, including Enterprise. Also, I don't believe for a minute that they were so estranged from the Enterprise fan base (a bit less than three million by the end?) that they didn't know that this concept would get the real fans angry? Kill the most popular character in the series, end a very popular romance for no reason and make it a TNG episode? Doesn't sound like a winner to me. Sorry HR, I can't buy your POV on this.

Funny you should mention long term career. I'm a big "24" fan and Coto hired Braga as a writer this year. Every time I saw a scene or a plot line that didn't make sense to me, I though "Braga must have wrote that".

As far as the George Lucas Syndrome being applied to Berman, you may have a point there. In fact, I remember an interview in which Jolene eluded to that; in her own charming way of course.

When we asked why changes weren’t made before, she replied:
“Because it’s the same in any industry... You have this head guy who's some kind of ancient old croaker with no concept of the real world outside, with his fine wine and his, er, crumpets. And what are ya gonna tell them? ‘Give it up’? ‘Go home, be with your wife, go play golf’? No - then ya got no job! A powerful job is your identity. Give that up, and who are you? What the hell are you gonna do with all that time? You can’t tell people what to do anymore!”

 

[Penguin]

I still believe that TATV was deliberate. The fans were forced fed one bitter pill after the other.

It seemed as if the Beebs or at least one was saying.

I get the last word by writing this and that word is F___K You.

I have thought for a long time that Bragga felt nothing but contempt for the Fans as he seemed to ignore the fans cmplaints and pleas. He seemed to enjoy taunting the fans by Keeping what they wanted just out of reach.

I often wondered why so many rehashed Episodes from other Trek Series. Seemingly telling the fans they were not important enough to write Original, fresh Episodes with contiinuity.

IMHO