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a PHOTON TORPEDO

The Earth is like 250 thousand miles from the moon right? So if the Enterprise was right next to the Earth, in space, and fired a photon torpedo, would it get to the moon or not? I'm still confused..
Rob

Assuming it was pointed in exactly the right direction, and there were no other effects on the torpedo's course or direction from gravity or passing debris hitting it etc you could PUSH the torpedo out of the ship and in a few centuries it would hit the Moon. This is of course a bit difficult to calculate target wise.
 
Aww, did he say that? I always thought it was okay for a non-casing plasma torpedo to go warp as long as it wasn't maneuvering around (which it seems it wasn't...Kirk seemingly had the Enterprise warp backwards and outrun it)...I didn't find it too hard to imagine some self-perpetuating space warp effect of brief duration. What did Spock say exactly?

The episode is 'Obsession', I forget the exact words, but it's paraphrased as nothing can go to warp without a warp drive of some kind. For our purposes, a small, two-meter canister that emits the plasma field would do nicely. Small enough to be negligible for VFX, and keeps Trek tech consistant.

(It seems surprising that some people maintain the Romulan ship had no warp capability when it could fire torpedoes that could nearly run down the Enterprise.)

They're deliberately confusing 'impulse power' with 'impulse drive', no matter how utterly stupid the idea of fighting a serious, long, deadly interstellar war would be if one party can't even hit light speed or hasn't done anything about that pesky time dialation issue yet.
 
They're pretty nebulous on that in "Balance of Terror", though. There could have been an emitting casing in the center of all that plasma, and it's not like we would know or see it. (Indeed, it would make more sense for one to be there, warp issues aside). But Spock also says, as damning 'canon', that things CANNOT go to warp without a device actually doing it.

Aww, did he say that? I always thought it was okay for a non-casing plasma torpedo to go warp as long as it wasn't maneuvering around (which it seems it wasn't...Kirk seemingly had the Enterprise warp backwards and outrun it)...I didn't find it too hard to imagine some self-perpetuating space warp effect of brief duration. What did Spock say exactly?

(It seems surprising that some people maintain the Romulan ship had no warp capability when it could fire torpedoes that could nearly run down the Enterprise.)
I have no recollection of that particular line ever being spoken, and certainly not by Spock. Anyone able to give the exact quote?

That said... even if this WAS stated (which I doubt)... the "device" doing it might be the weapon hardpoint in the ship, not the weapon "warhead" itself.

We've also seen phasers used at FTL speeds, even in TNG where it was established that phasers were sublight-only. This isn't really outrageous, any more than anything else we've seen. My personal "preferred explanation" is that the phaser cannon actually have the ability to 'jacket" a beam in a subspace field, allowing them to exceed C (by a level directly related to the strength of the passed-off field).
 
That said... even if this WAS stated (which I doubt)... the "device" doing it might be the weapon hardpoint in the ship, not the weapon "warhead" itself.

Which would be an utterly and completely stupid design, particularly for a ship that's already stretching fuel reserves. The idea that, rather than a torpedo-case that can do this on its own, that the MOTHER SHIP has to maintain the energy field at thousands, if not millions, of kilometers of distance, while re-entering cloak at the same time, etc, is just ludicrous. For our purposes, use Occam's razor, there's something at the center of the plasma weapon that both emits plasma and allows it to travel to warp. The expenditure of power for both functions is why it has a tight range limit.
 
That said... even if this WAS stated (which I doubt)... the "device" doing it might be the weapon hardpoint in the ship, not the weapon "warhead" itself.

Which would be an utterly and completely stupid design, particularly for a ship that's already stretching fuel reserves. The idea that, rather than a torpedo-case that can do this on its own, that the MOTHER SHIP has to maintain the energy field at thousands, if not millions, of kilometers of distance, while re-entering cloak at the same time, etc, is just ludicrous. For our purposes, use Occam's razor, there's something at the center of the plasma weapon that both emits plasma and allows it to travel to warp. The expenditure of power for both functions is why it has a tight range limit.
Vance, please chill out on the "aggressive" posting style. You've been using terms like "stupid" and so forth regularly lately. Seems something is bugging you and you're letting it come through in here. Please try to dial it back a bit.

It's not "utterly and completely stupid." There is no REAL SCIENCE reason... NONE WHATSOEVER... that what I just suggested is any more "stupid" than all the various stuff you've been proposing.

Do you know how to create a "subspace field?" No? Then how do you know that you can't create one that propagates along, in a parasitic fashion, with an energy field (like, say, a plasma torpedo or a phaser beam or a classic-concept, caseless photon torpedo)?

There are precedents for this sort of thing in reality. So unless you have a PhD in subspace physics, please try to dial back the inflammatory tone about stuff that is ENTIRELY MAKE-BELIEVE.

I'm trying really hard not to "flame back" when you say something like you just did. But let's be clear here, Vance... I proposed an idea and you responded by calling it "utterly and completely stupid." My idea is by no means "stupid," nor am I. And I have to admit to being more than a bit... annoyed... by your frequently insulting and combative tone lately. You haven't always been like this, and I know that in my own case, I've gotten "snippy" on occasion when I've had ugly crap going on, so I'll assume (for the moment) that this is what's going on with you, here.

But I strongly recommend you dial back the insulting tone.
 
Did the Romulans launch that FTL bolt while their ship was at sublight speed? If so, whether or not it used some sort of casing with a coil (or whatever) in it or if they had a short-term warp-jacketing field-effect kind of thing going on, they'd be doing something pretty impressive even by 24th-century standards.

The VFX in "Balance of Terror" did seem to show more of a cloud/flame effect at the center rather than an effort to draw in a central point from which everything was being projected (in TOS-R as well).

A DS9 reference to Romulan "plasma torpedoes" containing trilithium isotopes might support the idea of a physical casing with materials in it, especially since they mentioned a specific number of plasma torpedoes. I like to think this is something in the same family as the weapons used in TOS, as I believe was the intention; I remember Ron Moore saying something in a Q and A about "the faithful" indicating to him that this is what the Romulan torpedoes should be.
 
Did the Romulans launch that FTL bolt while their ship was at sublight speed? If so, whether or not it used some sort of casing with a coil (or whatever) in it or if they had a short-term warp-jacketing field-effect kind of thing going on, they'd be doing something pretty impressive even by 24th-century standards.

It's not clear, ever, what the velocities of the ships are. Since it's a 'race', though, you would assume a high level of warp, but that's also a bit at odds with the 'comet' scene (where crossing the tail should take less than a blink of an eye), as well as other parts where going more than C must be taking place, yet are taking far longer than they should (arrival at the asteroid bases), etc.

You're right, though, we're talking about extending a warp field over hundreds of thousands of kilometers, over an area larger than starships, with a ship that already cannot handle its fuel requirements. It doesn't make sense. If the weapon was sublight and meant for siege (like for the bases), it would be acceptable as is.. but since it moves at warp speed and even course-corrects after its target, there's got to be something guiding it. The ship can't do it since it's already returned to cloak status as soon as it fires the weapon.

So, again, using Occam's razor, a warhead or some sort is the most logical option.

So we have:
1) A ship has to decloak to power the Plasma Torpedo
2) The Torpedo is powered and fired
3) The ship recloaks (at this point making the 'container beam' impossible)
4) The Torpedo bleeds plasma and travels at warp, course-correcting as it goes.
5a) Torpedo impacts the target, enveloping it in plasma or
5b) Torpedo runs out of power, due to the high power usage over range, and becomes inert.
 
That said... even if this WAS stated (which I doubt)... the "device" doing it might be the weapon hardpoint in the ship, not the weapon "warhead" itself.

Which would be an utterly and completely stupid design, particularly for a ship that's already stretching fuel reserves. The idea that, rather than a torpedo-case that can do this on its own, that the MOTHER SHIP has to maintain the energy field at thousands, if not millions, of kilometers of distance, while re-entering cloak at the same time, etc, is just ludicrous.

Maybe not. If you consider that the plasma torpedo might be the energy weapon equivalent of a wire-guided torpedo, the requirement to keep some kind of deflector beam pushing the plasma ball along its correct flight path might be one of the reasons it was so fuel intensive to begin with. If that's the case, you're looking at a one-shot-kill energy weapon that never misses and never fails to bring down a target and whose only disadvantage is the range limit.

Likewise:

So, again, using Occam's razor, a warhead or some sort is the most logical option.

So we have:
1) A ship has to decloak to power the Plasma Torpedo
2) The Torpedo is powered and fired
3) The ship recloaks (at this point making the 'container beam' impossible)
4) The Torpedo bleeds plasma and travels at warp, course-correcting as it goes.
5a) Torpedo impacts the target, enveloping it in plasma or
5b) Torpedo runs out of power, due to the high power usage over range, and becomes inert.
Your third point is faulty. As of BoT it is the energy requirements of the weapon and the cloaking device--and nothing else--that prevent firing while cloaked. They have to divert power to the weapons before they can release it.

Now, if we're dealing with a projectile holding a ball of plasma with a forcefield, this makes no sense. Firing something out of a tube doesn't require that much energy, unless that projectile has no propulsive abilities of its own, in which case--projectile or not--it has to get its energy from the bird of prey.

The more likely scenario is that it really is just an implosive ball of plasma, and that generating the initial shot requires a huge expense of energy, like fifty times the output of a normal fusion reactor (which the Romulans, at the moment, use as their main power plant). After the shot has been fired, the pilot beam requires far less energy, so the Bird of Prey can cloak of it needs to and keep guilding the plasma ball to its path until it either dissipates or detonates.

The only wildcard here is that Sulu seems to think they could detonate it with their phasers. I doubt he's referring to some kind of casing warhead in the middle of the cloud; actually, I think he believes the phasers would be able to force the plasma ball to implode on itself without hitting anything.
 
Again, the downside of that argument is the cloaking device. Since TOS ships can detect warp trails so easily, it seems unlikely that the Romulan ship would recloak while still transmitting a warp envelope for its fire-and-forget weapon. The Enterprise would know exactly where that warp transmission was coming from.

As for detonating the plasma.. seems to me that if it were possible to detonate it by just hitting the plasma, the destruction would take out the warhead too (assuming one's there), so that argument's a wash.

Like I said, given what we know of Trek's technology, particularly for the TOS period, it makes little sense to assume a SPADIS jacket over the entirety of the plasma field, when that technology is supposedly somewhat new (I know, phasers are an argument against this) for the Federation in Picard's time.
 
If the weapon was sublight and meant for siege (like for the bases), it would be acceptable as is.. but since it moves at warp speed and even course-corrects after its target, there's got to be something guiding it.

Did the Enterprise actually maneuver? I was always under the impression Kirk just ordered warp astern when the bolt was already coming right for 'em. If I overlooked some detail suggesting that it actually maneuvered, that would be a major piece of evidence suggesting some sort of "metal-cased object" ;) with computers inside and whatnot was involved.
 
It doesn't do any radical maneuvers as it backs away from it, just a small course correction to be on track when it's first fired. But if the weapon was dumb-fire, Kirk would have to be pretty damn stupid to not just say 'okay, move a little to the left' to avoid it. :)
 
We've also seen phasers used at FTL speeds, even in TNG where it was established that phasers were sublight-only. This isn't really outrageous, any more than anything else we've seen. My personal "preferred explanation" is that the phaser cannon actually have the ability to 'jacket" a beam in a subspace field, allowing them to exceed C (by a level directly related to the strength of the passed-off field).

Another option is that in FTL situations (or non-FTL situations for that matter), the computer lock for the phasers "leads" the firing of the phasers such that the computer fires the phasers at the location at which the target will be when the phaser beams reach that location.

Kind of like firing a rifle at a moving target. You have a fire in front of the target in order to hit it or the bullet will fly behind the target.

YMMV
 
We've also seen phasers used at FTL speeds, even in TNG where it was established that phasers were sublight-only. This isn't really outrageous, any more than anything else we've seen. My personal "preferred explanation" is that the phaser cannon actually have the ability to 'jacket" a beam in a subspace field, allowing them to exceed C (by a level directly related to the strength of the passed-off field).

Another option is that in FTL situations (or non-FTL situations for that matter), the computer lock for the phasers "leads" the firing of the phasers such that the computer fires the phasers at the location at which the target will be when the phaser beams reach that location.

Kind of like firing a rifle at a moving target. You have a fire in front of the target in order to hit it or the bullet will fly behind the target.

YMMV
The problem with this approach is that the phaser shot, if it really IS purely sublight in nature, would be trivial to avoid if your ship is moving FTL and this were the case. The best "in-universe" example of this would be in "Wink of an Eye" where the accelerated people prove able to merely step out of the way of a hand-phaser shot.

For phasers to be effective in combat between ships moving at FTL speeds, you'd either need to fill a volume of space with shots (so it would be like trying to walk through a rain shower and avoiding the droplets) or you'd need to be able to have your beams move faster than the ship you're shooting at.

Despite the supposition that it's "stupid," this second idea isn't as far-fetched as it apparently seems to some. An analogy to look at this through would be to think of your "subspace field" as a bubble... I say that often enough. Now, imagine how a bubble can be dragged through the water, attached to, say, a reed.

For a Romulan plasma torpedo, for instance, you'd only need to generate this subspace bubble and shoot it out, with the plasma weapon inside of that bubble. Yes, the field will lose strength over time, and eventually the weapon will fail as a result. But there is no reason to pretend that "subspace fields dissipate immediately unless consistently provided with power." Trek-nology has dozens of cases we can look at where this is established NOT to be the case, doesn't it?

There is absolutely no reason to assume that subspace fields collapse instantaneously upon removal of driving power. None. Zip. Nada.

So, why not "toss out a bubble" with the weapon inside? The only reason you'd need any physical influence on that "bubble" would be if the weapon needed to be steered.

For a phaser shot... not an issue. They just fly straight and true, as will any "beam" weapon.

For a torpedo, the only thing we know for sure is that in the TNG-era, these torpedos have "sustainer coils" but not warp drive coils... meaning that they have to receive a "handed off" subspace field (aka "bubble"). In TOS, they may not have had the ability to steer (definitely the case if they were energy-weapons only) but could easily still move at FTL. I'd assume that the TWOK-era "physical torpedo casing" was an improvement... more expensive and more space-consuming, obviously, but far more likely to actually strike the target, since it would have LIMITED capability for course-correction, and (since it would be adding small amounts of energy to the handed-off subspace field) probably significantly improved range at FTL (though of course, still "infinite" range, once dropped back to sublight velocity).

Now, for a Romulan plasma weapon.. that's somewhat dubious. That is, we see no clear evidence on-screen that the crew tries to avoid the weapon... just that they back away from it and try to outrun it.

So, the question that really comes to mind for me is "why didn't the Enterprise simply turn 90 degrees and try to sidestep it?" It's quite clear from the dialog in the episode that nothing of that sort was TRIED. They simply tried to "outrun" it.

The only way that makes sense is if the plasma weapon was wide enough that it would have been impossible to avoid. Definite hard to imagine when you're talking FTL velocities, true.

If you go back and "retcon" the episode to insert some "evasive maneuvers," it would become clear that the weapon had steering/tracking capabilities. But there's nothing in the episode itself which states, or even really infers, that.

If the weapon spreads out to blanket a wide area, and moves extremely fast... an analogy would be to think of the weapon as a broom, and the Enterprise as an insect. The weapon "sweeps" through space, and the Enterprise tries to run away, but is so slow (relative to the "broom") that no matter what direction they run, they'll be swept over. They just got lucky insofar as the length over which the weapon "sweeps" is fairly short... possibly so that the beam's "cone" is something like 30 degrees... resulting in the width of the beam being twice the length it's traveled.

Given a situation like that... where you'd know you couldn't outrun it in ANY direction... "backing away" would be the only possible solution, since you could easily conclude that the beam strength (per unit projected area) would be decreasing significantly with range from origin. This would be even more of an issue with a plasma weapon, which would be "cooling" all the time, and would also be dramatically impacted by the presence of a subspace field which was decaying over time as well.
 
Actually, TNG, DS9, and VOY all explicitly say that you have to maintain a 'subspace field' artifically, else you immediately return to 'normal space' and, hence, sublight. So, yeah, there's no support in Trek Tech that you can quite just 'let it go' like that.
 
Actually, TNG, DS9, and VOY all explicitly say that you have to maintain a 'subspace field' artifically, else you immediately return to 'normal space' and, hence, sublight. So, yeah, there's no support in Trek Tech that you can quite just 'let it go' like that.
Yes, there is. You're simply choosing the (inconsistent) bits that support your own chosen perspective. There are other (inconsistent) bits that say quite the opposite.

I suspect you can find, easily enough, talk about ships losing power and the subspace field "approaching collapse"... but the ship not immediately falling to sublight. I know I can. There is no shortage of evidence to support both the "fields decay with time" and "fields immediately go 'poof'" concepts. For that matter, there's no shortage of evidence to support all variety of differing takes on all sorts of topics.

You've chosen your own bits you like, and ignore the rest. That's fine. Your insistence, for instance, that TMP torpedos were physical (despite overwhelming evidence... including from the people who made the movie... that this was not their intent) makes that fairly clear.

I have no problem with saying "I choose to believe that the 1701(r) carried physical casings in TMP." That's just make-believe, so we can all have our own perspectives on that. When you start describing REALITY as being different than what it is (like describing the intent of the artists as being different than what it undeniably really was), that's when you've gone down the wrong path.

I, personally, LIKE having a physical element in there. Doesn't change the fact that this wasn't the intent, though, does it?

Subspace is entirely fictional. Warp drive, or any FTL travel method ,is entirely fictional. Photon torpedoes are entirely fictional, as are Romulans, plasma weapons, phasers, and so forth. So there is no "right" answer. I come here to discuss what makes the most sense, within the framework of what we know (both on-screen and in reality).

There is NOTHING, on-screen or in reality, that "proves" that it's impossible to "hand off" a warp field. There is plenty of evidence that it is. Not the least of which comes from the people who, during the TNG-era, were the technical "gurus" on the show. It was mentioned, on-screen, multiple times. It was also commonly referred to during the 1970s and 1980s in some top-quality "fan fiction" work.

Yes, it's not "real." Neither is YOUR take. And both can be supported by cherry-picking your "favorite verses," or contradicted by cherry-picking others.

The problem here is that you're SOOO tied to your own take on this particular fantasy that you feel entitled to not only dismiss, but belittle, other takes, which are every bit as supportable, both in-fiction and in-reality.

I'll argue points like "impulse" because that's REAL. I certainly won't argue "Sarium Krellide" because that's not. I'll say what I think "dilithium" might be, but since it's not real, there IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

Get that? There is no "right answer" on this particular topic (FTL torpedoes) either. Even "in-fiction" there is no consistency. But where we see something happen once which CAN'T happen without this particular bit of "magic"... and where this particular piece of "magic" doesn't necessarily PRECLUDE the rest of it from happening (for instance, being able to "pass off" a subspace bubble doesn't mean that you HAVE to do that every single time, but not being able to do it means that you can NEVER do it, under any circumstances... right?), I'm inclined to take that explanation as the more likely one, for the simple reason that it doesn't require us to throw away anything we've seen.
 
Sorry, Cary, I honestly don't know of any Trek reference to a fading subspace field in the matter that applies here. Honestly, I do not.

Quite clearly, you're no longer rational on this subject, as you percieve an 'attack' on the methodology put forward is roughly the equivalent of shooting your dog. I'm going to take this opportunity to bow out.
 
Again, the downside of that argument is the cloaking device. Since TOS ships can detect warp trails so easily, it seems unlikely that the Romulan ship would recloak while still transmitting a warp envelope for its fire-and-forget weapon.
That Enterprise could conceivably track the pilot beam doesn't make much difference; in the case of the outpost attack, the Romulan ship didn't re-cloak until after the outpost was destroyed, and in the second case Enterprise' ability to track their invisible target is rendered immaterial by the sudden need to RUN LIKE HELL.

The Enterprise would know exactly where that warp transmission was coming from.
Sure they would... if the Romulans had fired at SOMEONE ELSE. On the other hand, Spock had been tracking them pretty well until this point, but it's abundantly clear that a sensor fix on the bird of prey's warp signature is not sufficient for a precise targeting fix.

Like I said, given what we know of Trek's technology, particularly for the TOS period, it makes little sense to assume a SPADIS jacket over the entirety of the plasma field, when that technology is supposedly somewhat new (I know, phasers are an argument against this) for the Federation in Picard's time.
Well phasers an are argument against it... but the argument FOR it is little more than offhand technobabble from the DS9 manual so I think we can disregard it.
 
Sorry, Cary, I honestly don't know of any Trek reference to a fading subspace field in the matter that applies here. Honestly, I do not.
It is stated in "Brothers" that the saucer section will drop out of warp in about two minutes after separation.
 
Sorry, Cary, I honestly don't know of any Trek reference to a fading subspace field in the matter that applies here. Honestly, I do not.
It is stated in "Brothers" that the saucer section will drop out of warp in about two minutes after separation.
Exactly... and there are several other references which are similar in nature, as well. Of course, there are also numerous examples of "cut power and 'poof' immediately" as well. It really depends on what the writer needed the "technobabble" to do in that particular case.
 
It is stated in "Brothers" that the saucer section will drop out of warp in about two minutes after separation.

But even then that's due to the 'sustainer' giving out after that time, and not a natural 'fade out effect' of just turning off the warp engines. The point is that there's still a device doing it somewhere, and therefore not what Cary was describing. Warp fields, as shown in Trek, are an all or nothing affair.. they're either at warp, or not.
 
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