Surak's Katra...

[FarDreaming]

In a question and answer period on TrekMovie, Orci responded to this question:

859. boborci - May 19, 2009 384. Pete359 - May 18, 2009:

Now with the Vulcan Elders, you had them in the Katric Ark. Someone already asked and you confirmed that they were doing “something” with Katras. Would this be retrieving the Katra of Surak and other maybe Vulcans? So does Sarek now have Surak’s Katra? Was there a thought to have one of the other Vulcan elders carrying the Kir’Shara?
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ORCI: Yeah, exactly!

 

[CorporalClegg]

If there's one thing I hate more than the word "canon," it's when people spell it "cannon."

Cannon Violation?

 

[ghdavid]

The correct spelling is "canon".

A "cannon" is a battlefield weapon.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Then answer my question, is it considered "cannon" for a vulcan mind meld to be the equivalent of the AIDS virus?

If there's one thing I hate more than the word "canon," it's when people spell it "cannon."

And seriously, what does AIDS have to do with anything? I don't even understand the question.

I think he is talking about the fact that on ENT there was an episode called "Stigma" where we learned that there was a neurological condition that could occur when two individuals engaged in a mind meld. It was intended, in part, to be an allegory on AIDS.

So the answer to his question is-no, Vulcan mind melds were not the equivalent of AIDS. Instead, a Vulcan mind meld in that case was being compared to sexual intercourse and the Pa'Nar syndrome was akin to the AIDS virus.

 

[Jeri]

^ I think most figured on that reference, but thought it was a non-sequitur with the thread.

 

[Sci]

According to ENTERPRISE, T'Pau ended up carrying Surak's Katra.

No, T'Pau tried to take Surak's katra from Archer, it Surak rejected her. After Archer opened the Orb of Canon (Kir'shara in the Vulcan language) and corrected the way Enterprise depicted Vulcans, the Vulcan Priest played by Jack Donner (Subcommander Tal from TOS The Enterprise Incident) ended up carrying Surak's katra.

I miss the days when Star Trek had this level of depth and complexity and was written and produced by people of integrity and conviction.

I never thought I'd see the day when someone on TrekBBS nostalgically referred to the days of ENT as "the days when Star Trek had depth and complexity and was produced by people of integrity and conviction."

BTW -- even if you think the new film was crap, it's really disgusting to accuse its creators of lacking integrity and conviction just because you don't enjoy their work.

 

[Amaris]

^ I think most figured on that reference, but thought it was a non-sequitur with the thread.

Exactly. It was more about their use of shock value, which was completely ineffective and not germane to this discussion.

J.

 

[Jolantru]

Did any of you watch Enterprise? The AIDS reference is not for shock value, well other than what the script writers of Enterprise meant it to be.

I was being somewhat facetious, but I'll go ahead and spell it out.

Enterprise completely changed the story lines of Vulcans. Mind melds were not an inherant trait to vulcan, but only held by a certain few. The ones who couldn't perform mind melds thought it was a "dirty" practice. T'Pol was thought of as an "AIDS" victim because she had unwillingly participated in a mind meld.

This is part of the reason I can't stand Enterprise. I thought it started out well enough, but then they felt the need to explain all this stuff.

In reading the thread, I initially thought that it was more of the canon freaks complaining about XI. I may have been mistaken in that, and I certainly am not trying flame anyone.

My main point is that 90% of what happened on Enterprise is not worth preserving in any fashion.

Enterprise is not without merrit, and I thought some of the characters were great. But with all the history they changed with the Vulcans, and the Xindi, and all of that, it best left forgotten.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Enterprise completely changed the story lines of Vulcans. Mind melds were not an inherant trait to vulcan, but only held by a certain few. The ones who couldn't perform mind melds thought it was a "dirty" practice. T'Pol was thought of as an "AIDS" victim because she had unwillingly participated in a mind meld.

They didn't change anything. The writers chose to reveal some aspects of Vulcan society in the 22nd century that weren't known in the other shows.

My main point is that 90% of what happened on Enterprise is not worth preserving in any fashion.

There were 98 episodes I could easily come up with more than 10% I'd want to preserve.

Enterprise is not without merrit, and I thought some of the characters were great. But with all the history they changed with the Vulcans, and the Xindi, and all of that, it best left forgotten.

You love XI yet you are seriously going to complain about B&B changing certain aspects of Trek on ENT.

 

[Sci]

You love XI yet you are seriously going to complain about B&B changing certain aspects of Trek on ENT.

Well, first off, ENT was crap until Season Four, whilst STXI is a wonderful film.

Secondly, STXI had the courtesy of creating a new Trek continuity before it started with its changes, whilst ENT changed things and then claimed that it had always been that way (inconsistencies with later-era Trek be damned).

 

[startrekwatcher]

You love XI yet you are seriously going to complain about B&B changing certain aspects of Trek on ENT.

Well, first off, ENT was crap until Season Four, whilst STXI is a wonderful film.

ENT's first two seasons weren't crap. They were mostly bland and they weren't uniformly so. There were some good episodes.

Its third season was uneven. They tried too hard to stretch out the Xindi arc to last an entire season resulting in too many filler episodes that were boring. But when they focused on the Xindi storyline it was quite good. I'd argue that the final stretch of episodes were better than XI in pretty much every aspect except with FX. I can say without hesitation those episodes were far more riveting and compelling than XI which was a nice action flick but nothing more.

Secondly, STXI had the courtesy of creating a new Trek continuity before it started with its changes, whilst ENT changed things and then claimed that it had always been that way (inconsistencies with later-era Trek be damned).

If you could provide examples I'd be better able to respond to them.

 

[gblews]

Enterprise completely changed the story lines of Vulcans. Mind melds were not an inherant trait to vulcan, but only held by a certain few. The ones who couldn't perform mind melds thought it was a "dirty" practice. T'Pol was thought of as an "AIDS" victim because she had unwillingly participated in a mind meld.

They didn't change anything. The writers chose to reveal some aspects of Vulcan society in the 22nd century that weren't known in the other shows.

Might I also add, that as it turned out, all of the 22nd century Vulcans were telepaths capable of mind melds just like the 23rd century Vulcans. So that was an aspect of Vulcans that was not changed by ENT. The 22nd century leadership Vulcan leadership were simply suppressing information about Vulcan mental abilities.

Also, speaking of the Panars Syndrome, T'Pau mentions that it is a condition that can result from an improperly conducted mind meld. She also points out that it is easily cured, but one may assume that it could still occur in the 23rd century, though probably was rare since Vulcans larn to do mind melds from early in their lives. So 23rd century Vulcans were also subject to Aids (Panars Syndrome)

 

[Jolantru]

Enterprise completely changed the story lines of Vulcans. Mind melds were not an inherant trait to vulcan, but only held by a certain few. The ones who couldn't perform mind melds thought it was a "dirty" practice. T'Pol was thought of as an "AIDS" victim because she had unwillingly participated in a mind meld.

They didn't change anything. The writers chose to reveal some aspects of Vulcan society in the 22nd century that weren't known in the other shows.

My main point is that 90% of what happened on Enterprise is not worth preserving in any fashion.

There were 98 episodes I could easily come up with more than 10% I'd want to preserve.

Enterprise is not without merrit, and I thought some of the characters were great. But with all the history they changed with the Vulcans, and the Xindi, and all of that, it best left forgotten.

You love XI yet you are seriously going to complain about B&B changing certain aspects of Trek on ENT.

The whole point of this thread was complaining if Surak's katra was kept. The truth is I don't care. Nor do I care about anything that Enterprise put forth, most of which was just stuff to be provocative, like Trip and T'Pol having sex.

Bermand and Braga did fundamentally change the Vulcan story. In the other trek stories and Movies we see that all Vulcans have mind meld abilities including Fal Tor Pan, and ancient ritual. But somehow Berman and Braga pretend like this is an unknown proceedure, and most of the Elite Vulcans either don't know about it or pretend it never existed.

Star Trek to me is TOS and TNG. The rest is pretty much crap, until now, so whatever changes are made to the new series that interfere with Enterprise, I say good for them.

 

[The Wormhole]

I never thought I'd see the day when someone on TrekBBS nostalgically referred to the days of ENT as "the days when Star Trek had depth and complexity and was produced by people of integrity and conviction."

This was Enterprise's fourth season. That year had so much depth and complexity it's arguably one of Trek's top 10.

BTW -- even if you think the new film was crap, it's really disgusting to accuse its creators of lacking integrity and conviction just because you don't enjoy their work.

Dude, I post on Trek BBS. Disgusting behaviour and slandering other people for immature reasons is what we do around here. Just maintaining the status quo.

 

[Sci]

Dude, I post on Trek BBS. Disgusting behaviour and slandering other people for immature reasons is what we do around here. Just maintaining the status quo.

 

[Captain Fine]

Sad but true. Although I like to think we're relatively civil on here.

And really, I loved Enterprise's last season and the exploration of Vulcan. It's that discovering Vulcan aspect that I am upset can never happen now in the STXI universe.