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The Kobayashi Maru Test

I remember that story, and I liked it--but it is hardly any more "dignified" than what we saw on film.

Oh, I agree. (I don't have a problem with the dignity the way it was.)

Thematically, it's actually a lot like what was in the movie - Kirk is trying to say "this test is unfair" by making a grandiose and obvious adjustment to the test. No apple in the comic, though there's plenty of ego-stroking. And Carol Marcus. :)
 
I remember that story, and I liked it--but it is hardly any more "dignified" than what we saw on film.

Oh, I agree. (I don't have a problem with the dignity the way it was.)

Thematically, it's actually a lot like what was in the movie - Kirk is trying to say "this test is unfair" by making a grandiose and obvious adjustment to the test. No apple in the comic, though there's plenty of ego-stroking. And Carol Marcus. :)
I have no problem with the sequence either, it's one of my favourite moments in the film. I love the apple bit.
 
I don't know if it's been said already, but I belive the writers felt it worked well enough in Galaxy Quest. The only fundamental difference is that they dropped the Coke can in favor of an apple.
 
Who am I to criticise (sic) you? After all, you like that funny guy who do the magic! Wooo - I blink like Jeannie, and the Mexican band do come, and the cigars poke out! He my favorite too!

Oh, how droll. For the record, I spell it "criticise" because that's the BRITISH way of spelling it ... and I'm British. Unlike YOUR errors, it ISN'T a spelling mistake. It appears you're not only smug, but insular and ethnocentric, too.

Seems like I have a whole lot of material to pick from to denigrate - "four series and over two decades worth of material."

"A Huge Body of work," indeed. And, apparently, in your eyes, every single minute of which a shining gem of incomparable genius.

Oh, please. Please. Talk about red herring / ad hominem / reductio ad absurdum.

This isn't what I said. Not at all. But YOU, on the other hand, did write:

If you'd like, Q yourself out, get on a little throne on a forklift and accuse. Knock yourself out. Then TNG was FARPOINT, and a borish, preachy joke with wish-granting jellyfish and a penchant for elementary school morality, and every series after that even more leaden.
I was responding to that load of ad-hominem-riddled hogwash.

Such peevishness is, frankly, boring, and you're beginning to bore me to death.

After all, you wouldn't possibly judge unfairly, stacking the hours of programming this current franchise has not had against it in your favor - So, naturally, we should be able to judge quality hour versus quality hour.

Except.

I notice you did not actually choose to address the apples versus apples comparison. Strange. Opening movie versus opening movie; seems fair to me. But you chose to ignore that point completely. Forgetful - or convenient?

Opening movie versus opening movie? "Encounter At Farpoint" is not a movie. The parameters of television and the big screen are inherently different. You're the one who brought the former into this.

I like this bit - very dramatic:
"The character of Q alone is a hundred times more compelling than anything in Abrams' movie, in my opinion. Star Trek is not without its "borish [sic]", "preachy" or "leaden" aspects, but to be so callow about such a huge body of work is ridiculous. This is the same body of work that gave us Picard, Data, Worf, Sisko, Kira, Odo, Garek, Seven Of Nine, The Doctor, Archer, Phlox. The same body of work that gave us The Borg and The Cardassians, fleshed out The Klingons and The Romulans, introduced various "alien of the week"'s, some clever, some not. The same body of work that spawned episodes like "The Best Of Both Worlds", "Family", "The Inner Light", "All Good Things...", "Duet", "The Visitor", "In The Pale Moonlight", "Scorpion", "Living Witness" et al. The same body of work that introduced concepts like the holodeck, the Maquis, the Dominion War, unification between The Romulans and The Vulcans etc. A body of work that used many seasoned and talented actors and artisans to tell intriguing stories and craft a vivid world."
I like to picture you standing on some parapet, waving a red flag when you say it.

Thanks. And this has WHAT to do with the discussion, in point of fact? Yep, thought so. It's just another attack designed to pad out your superficial argument.

But what Aren't you saying, exactly? I know - the fact that you're trying to bring to bear 772 episodes of Trek against one movie. Why aren't you saying,
This is the same body of work that gave us Trelane, Friendly Angel, Adonis, Bela Oxmyx, Parmen, Balok, Dr. Sevrin, Korob and Sylvia, Col. Green, Wyatt Earp, Janice Lester, Cloud William, The White Rabbit, Lutan, Dixon Hill, Sherlock Data, Armus the Trash Bag of Evil, and so much more.
The same body of work that gave us The Paklids and The Binars, The Gamesters of Triskelion, The Ekosians and the Zeons, the Andromedans, the Magna Romans, and shall I go on until I bore you to death?
You don't get to hide your trash under the carpet. There's too darn much of it. The fact of the matter is, we learn to deal with it, even love it, because without it, you cant get to the good stuff. You want STXI to represent the BEST of Trek... but did it Really represent the WORST of Trek? Because, if you really do the math, the best stuff came at the expense of many hours of junk. You glossed that over: "introduced various "alien of the week"'s, some clever, some not."

Er, no. I gave some highlights. That doesn't mean that those things were all that the shows had to offer. It also doesn't mean that every episode or season was a super-buffed-up iridescent pearl of greatness. It simply means that there was sufficient intelligence and creativity behind previous Trek endeavours to guarantee strong themes, characters and ideas. By the way, you call ALL of that "trash"? We must have seen two different versions of Star Trek.

You reference "The Best Of Both Worlds" - 3rd-4th Season. "Family" - 4th Season. "The Inner Light" - 5th Season. "All Good Things..." - 7th Season. Where is your unending love for "Farpoint?" Why don't you sing me sonnets about Data's "fully Functioning" "Naked Now?" Tell me about your love for the cat fight in "Code of Honor." About how the Monkey Ferengi are amazing in "The Last Outpost?" You seem to be getting a whole lot of first chances here that you'd rather ignore.

"Encounter At Farpoint" tells a strong story at its heart. An omnipotent being places a starship captain, captain of the flagship vessel, and therefore, apt representative of humanity, on trial, for his own pleasure and amusement, forcing the representative to prove his worth for setting out on this maiden voyage, essentially forcing the successor to Kirk and TOS to vindicate himself and the new series. Various characters are introduced and various ideas are touched upon. It may not be a flawless piece of dramatised television, but it does tell a worthy, interesting story. John DeLancie and Patrick Stewart bring considerable gravitas to their scenes, which anchor the episode, too. There is a lot here that goes right to the heart of Roddenberry's humanistic core.

Tell me, why is it that YOU accuse me of ignoring weak episodes while you have simply zoned in on the first four episodes of a two-decade body of Star Trek that spans more than six hundred? What the hell is your problem? Seems like YOU'RE the one who desperately needs to bring down twenty years of Star Trek to prop up one insignificant little action movie. If you're trying to imply that TNG got off to a poor start, you're expressing it incorrectly. While stronger episodes were yet to come, TNG threw down some interesting pieces from the start. It did not trade in the Hollywood cliches and stereotypes or exhibit the desperate pandering of Abrams' movie. It did not predicate its stories on action sequences or flagrant displays of emotionality and conflict.

Why? Why are you not judging all these first shows with the same vitriol that you're viewing this movie with? Answer Just That Question.

See above.

Tone, style, intent.

Previous post-TOS iterations of Star Trek, especially TNG and DS9, actively set out to tell mature and engaging stories in a particular world. Abrams' movie does not convey this feeling. It is a cliche-ridden, over-kinetic, over-hyped, jumped-up shallow action movie. In my opinion. And that of a few others. If you enjoy the latest movie, more power to you. But some have problems with it and have chosen to set up, and contribute to, threads like this one.
 
Skipping the rest of your selective crap...

Tell me, why is it that YOU accuse me of ignoring weak episodes while you have simply zoned in on the first four episodes of a two-decade body of Star Trek that spans more than six hundred?


Because this is >> T H E F I R S T M O V I E << in the franchise. First chance. First movie = Two Hours. I given you TNG's first five hours. Better than a two - to - one head start development advantage. Because I know you want soooo hard to win. How much advantage do you need? You've got five hours of first stories versus two - more than twice as much time to show me brilliance out of the gate.

Got the concept? First Development? Think, Ruk... I know this puts you at great unease, but try as hard as you possibly can to attempt to be fair. How can a man who uses language as well as you do be so dense on simple conceptual understanding?

"Encounter At Farpoint" tells a strong story at its heart. An omnipotent being places a starship captain, captain of the flagship vessel, and therefore, apt representative of humanity, on trial, for his own pleasure and amusement, forcing the representative to prove his worth for setting out on this maiden voyage, essentially forcing the successor to Kirk and TOS to vindicate himself and the new series. Various characters are introduced and various ideas are touched upon. It may not be a flawless piece of dramatised television, but it does tell a worthy, interesting story. John DeLancie and Patrick Stewart bring considerable gravitas to their scenes, which anchor the episode, too. There is a lot here that goes right to the heart of Roddenberry's humanistic core.

How many places do we need to shoot at here..?

Whatever Q became later, if you take this episode as it is, Q is purely a tangential distraction - I'd be willing to bet they added him to pad the script as an afterthought. I mean really - apart from the time-bandits scenes and the chair on a fork lift, what did he Actually do? "You're stupid." "I'm putting you on trial." "You'll never solve it." "You got lucky. I'll be back." He was a non-threat and a non-contributor. He was a bookend and some script padding.

(In fact, to sidebar conversations about a series of future episodes, one could argue that for all his bluster, future Q episodes suggest that he was more interested in them succeeding than failing. He never actually hindered anything I can remember, without making good later.)

He didn't "force" the representative to prove his worth for setting out on this maiden voyage.They were going there anyway.

First dialog lines of FARPOINT:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard: You will agree, Data, that Starfleet's orders are difficult?
Lt. Commander Data: Difficult? Simply solve the mystery of Farpoint station.

So - if the Enterprise was going to the 7/11 for some smokes, and Q showed up and yammered at them, and then they went to the 7/11 for some smokes, Q "forced" them to do it?

Further, they essentially ignored him.

Captain Jean-Luc Picard: If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are.

They did nothing differently in regards to Farpoint with Q than they would have without him. So there is no actual pressure to "prove his worth" involved either. Unless, of course, you're saying that without Q to add additional pressure, Picard would have left the wish-granting jellyfish a prisoner of Gropler Zorn.

Q did nothing, accomplished nothing, was not an inherent part of the actual story of Farpoint Station, anymore than the color commentators are part of a football game.

So, as far as the actual "Heart" of the story, this is what you've got:
"Encounter At Farpoint" tells a strong story at its heart. <CUT ALL Q REFERENCES> Various characters are introduced and various ideas are touched upon. It may not be a flawless piece of dramatised television, but it does tell a worthy, interesting story. There is a lot here that goes right to the heart of Roddenberry's humanistic core.

In future episodes, he was at the heart of the story, and used to good effect. But again, that was after they had some time to find their footing as a series - a perspective you won't allow STXI, so, out of fairness, will not be allowed in this discussion of the premiere of TNG. I know that breaks your heart, amigo, but cest la vie.

Now, lets go back to that ten minute comparison. Out of TNG's first ten minutes, easily six were spent looking at the CGI fence and going through the Q fashion show - a hunk of business that had absolutely no bearing on the actual story of Farpoint, the development of the plot or the outcome.

You like it because it hammers at that whole "Look how evolved we've become" Roddenberry posit with a jackhammer, spelling out what should have been inherent enough in the story alone. Just...Hammers It - buries you in the obvious, instead of letting the story demonstrate.

Would "Inner Light" have been better if Q kept popping up, "So, Picard - or is it Kamin now? - Look at those blisters! Need some lotion? You'll never figure out what happened to you. Where is your precious ship?" Of course not... but the production had Time to get their storytelling in order.

"The parameters of television and the big screen are inherently different." But the parameters of storytelling are not. FARPOINT is awkward and inept in the way they incorporated Q for no other reason than to put that Roddenberry agenda on the table. Awkward and inept storytelling by stopping the story dead at several points along the way, to toss in a Roddenberry injection via Q, then returning to the actual story at hand and essentially ignoring his existence as part of the development of the story proper, wasting time that may have been better spent incorporating the concept into the actual mission at hand.

First outings are a bitch, aint they?

So - do you want to compare babies, or are you still intent on comparing a 50-year old brain surgeon's brightest moments to a newborn?
 
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STXI was not shallow or jumped-up any more than any other Trek films have been. In fact, I would say it's not shallow at all because it has at its heart exactly what the entirety of TOS had at its heart: the core friendship between the main characters.

The five-percenters accuse the people who liked the movie of getting distracted by the shiny effects and explosions, but I think it's they who got distracted and missed the pitch-perfect character drama that everyone else found so appealing.

That said, stop derailing the topic please. This thread isn't another goddamned thread for the five-percenters to hijack to bitch about how much they hated the film.
 
Whatever Q became later, if you take this episode as it is, Q is purely a tangential distraction - I'd be willing to bet they added him to pad the script as an afterthought.

That's exactly what happened. They wrote a one-hour pilot about a mysterious space-station, and then when they were told to make a two-hour pilot instead, they added in a side-plot with Roddenberry's favorite trope, "God is an alien who tests the crew and the crew kicks God's ass," to fill out the extra hour.
 
I didn't care for how it was played and how he changed the program.

Kirk should have played it perfectly straight until his modifications. The way he did it, they knew something was up. No surprise.

Let them think it's just another routine test, then pull the rug out.

Second was what he did to the program. It seemed a little pedestrian: they drop shields, we fire. Feh.

With someone with Kirk's ego, they should have done this:

1. Have Kirk tell Uhura to let him broadcast to the Klingons.
2. He announces himself: "This is Captain James T. Kirk."
3. The Klingons immediately stop firing and come on screen, apologizing, saying that they've heard of him, how honored they are to meet him, and offering to assist in the rescue.
4. Kirk pulls out the apple and smirks up at Spock.

Joe, fin
 
I didn't care for how it was played and how he changed the program.

Kirk should have played it perfectly straight until his modifications. The way he did it, they knew something was up. No surprise.

Let them think it's just another routine test, then pull the rug out.

Second was what he did to the program. It seemed a little pedestrian: they drop shields, we fire. Feh.

With someone with Kirk's ego, they should have done this:

1. Have Kirk tell Uhura to let him broadcast to the Klingons.
2. He announces himself: "This is Captain James T. Kirk."
3. The Klingons immediately stop firing and come on screen, apologizing, saying that they've heard of him, how honored they are to meet him, and offering to assist in the rescue.
4. Kirk pulls out the apple and smirks up at Spock.

Joe, fin

They couldn't do that because it would have infringed on copy written material from the novel Kobayashi Maru. That was more or less exactly what he did in the book and thus it was out of bounds for the movie.
Don't get me wrong, I think that would have been perfect. That was my favorite line in the book. But like the man says, "You can't always get what you want".
 
I didn't care for how it was played and how he changed the program.

Kirk should have played it perfectly straight until his modifications. The way he did it, they knew something was up. No surprise.

Let them think it's just another routine test, then pull the rug out.

Second was what he did to the program. It seemed a little pedestrian: they drop shields, we fire. Feh.

With someone with Kirk's ego, they should have done this:

1. Have Kirk tell Uhura to let him broadcast to the Klingons.
2. He announces himself: "This is Captain James T. Kirk."
3. The Klingons immediately stop firing and come on screen, apologizing, saying that they've heard of him, how honored they are to meet him, and offering to assist in the rescue.
4. Kirk pulls out the apple and smirks up at Spock.

Joe, fin

They couldn't do that because it would have infringed on copy written material from the novel Kobayashi Maru. That was more or less exactly what he did in the book and thus it was out of bounds for the movie.
Don't get me wrong, I think that would have been perfect. That was my favorite line in the book. But like the man says, "You can't always get what you want".

Ahh, so that's why they couldn't do it like that. Copyrights! I still like that version a little more.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, that was the way it happened in the Prime-verse. ;)
 
STXI was not shallow or jumped-up any more than any other Trek films have been. In fact, I would say it's not shallow at all because it has at its heart exactly what the entirety of TOS had at its heart: the core friendship between the main characters.

The five-percenters accuse the people who liked the movie of getting distracted by the shiny effects and explosions, but I think it's they who got distracted and missed the pitch-perfect character drama that everyone else found so appealing.

That said, stop derailing the topic please. This thread isn't another goddamned thread for the five-percenters to hijack to bitch about how much they hated the film.

Well said
 
They couldn't do that because it would have infringed on copy written material from the novel Kobayashi Maru. That was more or less exactly what he did in the book and thus it was out of bounds for the movie.
Don't get me wrong, I think that would have been perfect. That was my favorite line in the book. But like the man says, "You can't always get what you want".

Ah, and here I thought I was the first to come up with it.

I'll have to check that book out.

Joe, second-fiddler
 
Shatmandu, it's probably where this comic I was talking about got its inspiration from:

Not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but there was a version of Kirk's defeat of the KM in a comic (this one, I believe) that I was pretty fond of until now. In it, Carol Marcus is at the Academy with Kirk, and has some help in getting him access to the computers. She is his comm officer during the test, and is surprised when Kirk is able to hail the Klingons.

After he identifies himself, the Klingons reply: "You are Captain Kirk? ...the Captain Kirk??"

That always seemed so dead-on Kirk to me. Pretty good storyline, too.
 
I liked this scene, but also didnt.

Its a tough one.


You see, since i was a kid, i have had the Kobayashi Maru simulation in my head, done my way, for nearly 15 years. My young Kirk was cocky, yeah, sarcastic at times, etc etc, basically a young version of Kirk Prime with a bit of me in there.

My version started with a kinda 'exam style' line up at the simulator door. Theyre nervous at the fact that they have to do the test. The only one not nervous is obviously Kirk. Hes at the back of the line, hands in pockets glancing around, with a cadet from each department that have different career goals, such as science, helm, engineering etc. They take their positions at their given consoles, Kirk doesnt even sit in the chair until the end. He paces around, practically doing all the work on various consoles. he plays it strait as to not let on to the examiners hes cheated. Then the simulation ends where the Klingons grant a rescue on ceertain terms and conditions, he then he sits down in the chair, crosses his legs and hits the comm button and utters to the examiners "Any questions?" :lol:



I didnt mind the way it was handled, it was ok. A bit brief, and a little too bit comical, but that was the point, it was showing the audience just how carefree, cocky and rebelious this new Kirk is.

The way this was done however was a good but light hearted way of doing it. Where as in TWOK, you are led to believe that the opening is an Enterprise mission with a new former bar tender female Vulcan captain, until the regulars are systematically killed, then you start to re-think until the door opens with Kirk in shaddow.
 
Shatmandu, it's probably where this comic I was talking about got its inspiration from:

Y'know, the more I think about this, the more it puzzles me: Paramount owns the Star Trek copyright. If they wanted to use the "Klingons recognise Kirk and apologize" scenario as laid out in the book/comic, they surely could.

If there was money involved, as in having to pay the author of the book/comic, then I can see why they went with something new.

I'll see if I can find out in the Trek Lit section.

Joe, lit
 
If you think about it just in terms of the movie though, the whole "oh, THE Captain Kirk, well good lord, take the ship" comes across as even more cocky and smart-ass than this version. The book version works because readers of TrekLit know Captain Kirk, so it's an injoke because we know that this would be the actual result in the future.

If you don't know Kirk or what he will become, then he just comes across as an arrogant ass.
 
^That's a very good point. Still, I wonder how Average Joe who didn't really know about the scene felt that it played?
 
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