WTF..? Just when did the alternate timeline start..??

[All Seeing Eye]

That bumpy-forehead look from the TNG era bothered me too...weren't the Romulans and Vulcans only separated for a few thousand years? Hmm..college biology tells me that's not enough time for such physiological changes

I've explained about this long ago in another forum in another thread.

What we know and understand about evolution is limited to the planet Earth, just because it may take us hundreds of thousands of years to notice any changes to our DNA and biology doesn't mean other species in the Star Trek universe are limited to the same timescale. So your "college Biology" means absolutely nothing whatsoever and is completely useless when it comes to talking about species outside the planet Earth.

The Vulcans therefore the Romulans could undergo rapid evolutionary development when exposed to just a few thousand years of a different environment because they are not from Earth and are not subject to the same evolutionary timescale. This is also what I propose happened to the Remans, the Remans were Vulcan/Romulan to start with but thousands of years of breeding and living constantly under the harsh conditions of Remus coupled with their rapid genetic ability to evolve quickly caused them to look like they did in Nemesis.

I mean you no disrespect, but to quote the Alternate James T. Kirk:

"...Bullshit!"

you cannot be serious.

If you wanna believe that hundreds of thousands of species on different worlds in the cosmos all evolve at the same pace feel free. I'll lose no sleep.

 

[Kruge]

And that "college biology" by the way, that means "nothing",has certain laws, like physics, mathematics, etc., that are universal constants...

It doesn't matter what planet you're talking about...for earth-like life (and Romulans and Vulcans, being "humanoid" and therefore very earth-like indeed), there are certain rules...we have, in the real world, never seen true extraterrestrial life, so I would concede that we have no idea how it would look or evolve, but given that most aliens in Star Trek are so similar to humans biologically (copper-based blood and cranial ridges not withstanding), it's natural to assume that their evolution followed a similiar path...especially if you consider that in the TNG era it is discovered that these races were all created through biological "seeding", that Vulcan, Romulus, Qo'noS, etc., are not radically different from earth (I'm not glossing over the differences, but they aren't as alien as most real extrasolar planets probably are)...

Again, your argument has merit in the "real world"...but in Star Trek, I say your explanation is sorely lacking...its never easy to gel science fiction with actual science, so you while your effort is admirable and thorough, it's also, once again (no offense), bullshit

 

[scottydog]

I'm sitting here wondering how the hell bumps on a forehead evolve in the first place. In what way would they enhance one's genetic fitness?

But getting back to the OP's question: There has been so much time travel in trek, and so many changes and near-changes in history, that it hurts my head to think about all the possibilities I can imagine, let alone those that I can't. So I'm just going to stop thinking and enjoy the show.

 

[Kruge]

I've explained about this long ago in another forum in another thread.

What we know and understand about evolution is limited to the planet Earth, just because it may take us hundreds of thousands of years to notice any changes to our DNA and biology doesn't mean other species in the Star Trek universe are limited to the same timescale. So your "college Biology" means absolutely nothing whatsoever and is completely useless when it comes to talking about species outside the planet Earth.

The Vulcans therefore the Romulans could undergo rapid evolutionary development when exposed to just a few thousand years of a different environment because they are not from Earth and are not subject to the same evolutionary timescale. This is also what I propose happened to the Remans, the Remans were Vulcan/Romulan to start with but thousands of years of breeding and living constantly under the harsh conditions of Remus coupled with their rapid genetic ability to evolve quickly caused them to look like they did in Nemesis.

I mean you no disrespect, but to quote the Alternate James T. Kirk:

"...Bullshit!"

you cannot be serious.

If you wanna believe that hundreds of thousands of species on different worlds in the cosmos all evolve at the same pace feel free. I'll lose no sleep.

Again, you are correct, in a "real world" scenario...but this is Star Trek...don't try to explain what amounts to a bigger budget and therefore better costumes as "science"...it will never fly

 

[All Seeing Eye]

we have, in the real world, never seen true extraterrestrial life, so I would concede that we have no idea how it would look or evolve,

So you write this then go on to say that because they're all humanoids they should evolve the same pace? oh.....my......God.

Yes they were all seeded but they all evolved from environments on their own planets using native planetary amino acids and celled organisms, just look at the Xindi, do you think the Xindi Insects and Xindi primates are anything alike biologically even though they were seeded? they were on the same planet and STILL evolved differently.
It would be like injecting the information to create a humanoid into two completely different substances and having them evolve into the humanoid shape, they may end up looking alike but are made of completely different makeup and will therefore evolve at a different rate.

As for you blood analogy for starters Vulcan and Romulan blood is green and not red like Humans so blood alone is different and will work differently.

In the REAL world evolution of different species will be paced differently and that is even MORESO the case in the Trek Universe. The only difference with the Trek universe is that all these different species were pre-programmed to become humanoid in shape and appearance but that is the ONLY similarity, everything else is different and works differently.

 

[Kruge]

we have, in the real world, never seen true extraterrestrial life, so I would concede that we have no idea how it would look or evolve,

So you write this then go on to say that because they're all humanoids they should evolve the same? oh.....my......God.

Yes they were all seeded but they all evolved from environments on their own planets, just look at the Xindi, do you think the Xindi Insects and Xindi primates are anything alike biologically even though they were seeded? they were on the same planet and STILL evolved differently.

As for you blood analogy for starters Vulcan and Romulan blood is green and not red like Humans so blood alone is different.

In the REAL world evolution of different species will be paced differently and that is even MORE the case in the Trek Universe.

No it isn't...the only thing that "evolved' was the freaking budget to allow better make-up and prostethics...

My point is that there aren't a certain set of scientific laws for Earth, and a set for Vulcan, and a set for Romulus, etc...I think you need a refresher course in Biology (I have to take alot for my major), but at this point the converstation has reached an impasse...

I'm happy that you are creative enough to come up with these detailed explanations for such minuitae, and I wish that I had time to waste to do the same...anyways, I enjoyed the debate, and I can say that I liked your explanation a lot better than the way that the Klingon's forehead ridges were handled on Enterprise...

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I'm finished here.

 

[Kruge]

I'm finished here.

Good..I haven't seen the biological sciences more mangled to fit an explanation since I had the misfortune of speaking with a Young Earth Creationist...

 

[IDIC]

My point is that there aren't a certain set of scientific laws for Earth, and a set for Vulcan, and a set for Romulus, etc...I think you need a refresher course in Biology (I have to take alot for my major), but at this point the converstation has reached an impasse...

Biology is hardly an exact science. There is no formula or set time frame for evolutionary processes. Also, there are tons of factors that could affect how quickly change occurs when a species becomes isolated. Mutations can be brought about by external means also e.g. radiation.

Not to mention when you introduce the concept of sentience, evolution no longer has to be directed solely by "survival of the fittest". The cranial difference between Romulans and Vulcans could be explained in a number of different ways beyond just saying that it is the result of more funding for makeup.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

The cranial difference between Romulans and Vulcans could be explained in a number of different ways beyond just saying that it is the result of more funding for makeup.

Maybe the Romulans contracted a variant of the Augment virus around the same time the Klingons found a cure for it.

They seem to have found a cure by Nero's time. ...

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I'm finished here.

Good..I haven't seen the biological sciences more mangled to fit an explanation since I had the misfortune of speaking with a Young Earth Creationist...

I'm not biting.

My argument on evolution speaks for itself and let's just say it shoots yours into oblivion. Nothing more needs saying.

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

I believe it was elsewhere on this board, but I saw a suggestion that the moment the temporal incursion occurred, the alternate reality created a new timeline where all of the timetravel events depicted in the TV series and movies never happened, turned out differently, or were over-written by numerous other, not yet seen incursions.

This would allow for the seeming tech anachronisms on the Kelvin which appeared to be in place before their encounter with the Narada. If the effects of timetravel are felt along the entirety of the timeline simultaneously, even a future Spock travelling back in time would not realize the past wasn't what he should expect (over and above the direct effects of Narada's incursion - having come into the situation 25 years after the fact, he was ostensibly unaware of the differences already in place at the movie's start and wrote everything off to Nero's direct actions). Although, how that would fit with the combination of timetravel and sidestepping into an alternate reality, I have no clue.

But, perhaps, in effect, the audience, from a God's eye view, having seen the past, future and now present of Star Trek as a whole, can see a certain order to all the disparate events, and point out various places where cause and effect have been reversed and changes have occured to what, objectively, came before, but the characters themselves would, in most cases be unable to notice the differences.

Something similar to the whole Year of Hell saga from Voyager, when the repeated incursions to the timeline caused instantaneous (or at least rapidly expanding temporal wavefront type) effects which were only detectable by people aboard vessels with temporal shielding. Until Voyager was equipped, the crew had no clue anything was wrong, while objectively, dozens of variant timelines were springing in and out of existence every time Anorax fired his weapon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The cranial difference between Romulans and Vulcans could be explained in a number of different ways beyond just saying that it is the result of more funding for makeup.

Maybe the Romulans contracted a variant of the Augment virus around the same time the Klingons found a cure for it.

Could be. After all, we've heard (in a novel, Forged in Fire) that the Augment virus is responsible for the differences in appearance for the:

Spoiler: novel

Trill

it would already be in a different timeline from TOS, since it would incorporate all the changes to the timeline made in "Enterprise" by the Borg, Daniels, FutureGuy, and the Sphere-Builders. These major changes include the Xindi attack on Earth in "The Expanse," the destruction of the Paraagan mining colony in "Shockwave," and the Suliban attack on the Klingon in "Broken Bow," not to mention the Borg's attack in Earth's past in "ST: First Contact" and "Regeneration." None of those happened in the pre-TOS timeline

We don't know that.

 

[gastrof]

I've always assumed that the alternate timeline started with the Narada's confrontation with the Kelvin, and that everything prior to that is the same as we've always thought it was...

Now, JJ has said in an MTV interview (find a report on that here) that the Kevlin crew were aware of the Narada crew being Romulans, and that he intentionally wanted to break away from the Prime timeline at the very beginning of the film...

So.... did the Narada and Prime Spock enter a Mirror Universe where Romulans were already known...??

The matter of the Romulans and the tech seen in connection with the Kelvin has made some of us suspect that very thing, that the movie takes place in a universe similar but not identical to the original Trek universe.

Spock and Nero sort of slid sideways AND BACK in time, maybe?

This would help explain why Data and Picard stood unchanged after Nero and Spock vanished into the black hole in the COUNTDOWN prequel.

The Trek universe we know doesn't appear to have been changed, so wherever Spock ended up, I'm pretty much settled it's NOT the original unvierse.

I just wonder why he hasn't noticed that yet. I suppose the fact he's barely arrived could be part of the reason. I mean, we saw things 25 years earlier that he never saw. He might assume all the differnces have only developed over the last 25 years.

On the other hand, while JJ's said the Kelvin crew were aware Nero's people were Romulan, has he said exactly when and how they discovered that?

I myself wondered how everyone was discussing the connection between Vulcan and Romulus so openly, with Kirk still being only 25 years old.

Plus, according to stuff that didn't make it into the film, the Klingons captured Nero's ship not long after the Kelvin cripled it by colliding.

The Klingons could have found out who these vulcanoids were and the news spread over the next 25 years.

This leads us back to the movie being simply an altered prime unvierse, not an alterNATE universe.

Thing is, then that leaves the question "Why weren't Picard and Data changed"?

Some say "the new timeline simply splintered off the original and CREATED a parallel universe", but that's not how changes in history have EVER been deipiced in Trek.

If the movie IS the prime unvierse, just altered, it could be that somehow things are now back on track enough where Picard's era remains essentially unchanged, tho' with a few differences you wouldn't notice at first. (Like where did Picard go to meet with the ill Sarek? Vulcan? Nope. Not now. Maybe the NEW Vulcan homeworld instead?)

Spock's desire to reunite the Romulan and Vulcan peoples might even take on a whole new meaning, since the Romulans were pretty much the only people of Vulcan ancestry LEFT in the galaxy, in the new timeline.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

 

[Sector 7]

WTF..? Just when did the alternate timeline start..??

The change in the timeline occurred on May 8, 2009 (sooner in some locations), and not a moment too soon.

Let's be honest, there was no real way to reconcile 'bumpy' versus 'non-bumpy' Romulans, Vulcans, Klingons or others in any truly believable way. The best thing to do was start over from scratch and, hopefully, do it without the canon-ball chained to Star Trek's ankle.

 

[Adagio]

So.... did the Narada and Prime Spock enter a Mirror Universe where Romulans were already known...??

Well, the Romulans were known before the events in TOS, as stated in "Balance of Terror". They just didn't know what they looked like before that episode.

 

[Michael]

In all honesty, I just don't care. Personally the whole alternate universe stuff doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I wanted to be entertained. And I was. All Star Trek timelines are fictional by definition anyway. So I don't see why I should be bothered if it was one or the other.

Of course, other mileages will vary.

 

[gastrof]

...Let's be honest, there was no real way to reconcile 'bumpy' versus 'non-bumpy' Romulans, Vulcans, Klingons or others in any truly believable way...

ENTERPRISE did it in an entirely satisfying way, and made everything make sense, as far as the Klingons were concerned.

As for the Romulans, I've always suspected something similar happened to them.

TNG made it clear they'd suddenly "disappeared" from galactic involvement for unknown reasons decades earlier, and by their own admission this was because they'd had "things to take care of".

This opens up many possibilities.

 

[gastrof]

In all honesty, I just don't care. Personally the whole alternate universe stuff doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I wanted to be entertained. And I was. All Star Trek timelines are fictional by definition anyway. So I don't see why I should be bothered if it was one or the other.

Of course, other mileages will vary.

No insult intended here, okay? No insult intended, but YOU'RE NO FUN!!!

Trek fans have ALWAYS enjoyed figuring out seeming continuity glitches, and this is no different.

If you don't want to play, fine, but don't try to make out "this isn't important".

If it's important enough to watch and enjoy, it's important enough to speculate about and try to figure out.

You should join in such fanciful thinking some time. It's enjoyable.