Theory & revisions re: Kirk's rapid promotion(s) [3 merged]

[Mr. Crane]

I just saw Star Trek, and have a hard time with the idea that Pike would promote Cadet Kirk to first officer of the Enterprise over other officers, and then captain, a jump of multiple ranks, one one of the newest state-of the art vessels.

I have a possible explanation for this. Perhaps Kirk did join Starfleet in 2250, just as he did in the "Original Timeline", graduated in 2254 as a lieutenant, served for a year or so, then suffered some traumatic event that made him leave the fleet and return to Iowa, where he began drinking and getting into trouble, as we saw in the beginning of the film in the bar scene. Because he was such a promising officer, Captain Pike was sent to convince him to enlist back into Starfleet Academy's command school, an elite graduate program. Therefore, Kirk would be a cadet again, but would hold an officer rank, so Pike could call on him in the Emergency for first officer.

Kirk having a previous history in the fleet would explain how Pike had his aptitude test scores, as well as how Kirk knew about Uhura's linguistics studies. Starfleet Academy's elite command school was established in the video game Starfleet Academy by Interplay, so it is possible this was some sort of graduate program Pike was recruiting Kirk for. When he said, "enlist in Starfleet", he was actually encouraging Kirk to return to the fleet, rather than lose a promising officer after only a year of service in space.

It just helps me to justify the fairly illogical jump in rank from cadet to captain after only one space adventure.

Whatcha think? Would my explanation work?

 

[clint g]

Re: Cadet Kirk - could he have served in the Fleet prior to the movie?

I dont think so. If that were the case, he would have said "re-enlist"

 

[Peter the Younger]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

The on-screen evidence doesn't support it, but in my personal fantasy where the screenwriters let me edit their work, that's pretty much what I would have suggested. The only drawback being, it lacks the impact of seeing Kirk as a cadet, the actual "beginning" for him.

As for the promotion, I've made my peace with it. None of the ranks seem tied to experience: Uhura graduates as a Lieutenant, Chekov as an Ensign. If Starfleet is an organization where talented wunderkinds can graduate at 17, then it's ranking system uses no resemblance to any traditional military organization. Let's just call it a meritocracy, and be done with it.

 

[Jax]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Kirk was most likely top of his classes in many area's and 3 years of what am sure is heavy training gave him a high rank among the cadets and since most people on the Enterprise were cadets I don't see the problem. Pike liked what he saw in Kirk and knew he could do the job. The best cadets can leave the Academy and be given a high rank right away though of course not normally 1st officer of course but this is Trek.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

I had a problem with Pike using the term "enlist" anyway. Enlisting and becoming an officer are two entirely different things.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Kirk was most likely top of his classes in many area's and 3 years of what am sure is heavy training gave him a high rank among the cadets and since most people on the Enterprise were cadets I don't see the problem. Pike liked what he saw in Kirk and knew he could do the job.

Cadet is not a rank. It means officer in training. There aren't different ranks of cadets. When a cadet graduates training, they become an officer. In the case of Starfleet, which is modeled after Navy rank, a cadet graduates and becomes an Ensign.

 

[Jax]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Kirk was most likely top of his classes in many area's and 3 years of what am sure is heavy training gave him a high rank among the cadets and since most people on the Enterprise were cadets I don't see the problem. Pike liked what he saw in Kirk and knew he could do the job.

Cadet is a rank. It means officer in training. There aren't different ranks of cadets. When a cadet graduates training, they become an officer. In the case of Starfleet, which is modeled after Navy rank, a cadet graduates and becomes an Ensign.

Oh well I have no problem with the best and brightest being given high ranks in Trek right away, plus it was cadet ship mainly so you could say they were working off cadet rakings at that time. You save Earth you can get anything you want

Pike's got taste what ya going to do

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Uhura graduates as a Lieutenant, Chekov as an Ensign.

That's half the problem with the movie. The writers and director had no idea what they were doing. No one graduates as a Lieutenant. You graduate as the lowest officer rank. In the case of Starfleet, that would be an Ensign. If your career field requires additional schooling, as a doctor's would, you continue your schooling, and move through the ranks while attending your additional schooling. Which why you see Starfleet officers in the medical field, as well as some soldiers in real life, finish their training as higher ranking officers. Though, when they graduated from the academy, they were Ensigns.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Kirk was most likely top of his classes in many area's and 3 years of what am sure is heavy training gave him a high rank among the cadets and since most people on the Enterprise were cadets I don't see the problem. Pike liked what he saw in Kirk and knew he could do the job.

Cadet is a rank. It means officer in training. There aren't different ranks of cadets. When a cadet graduates training, they become an officer. In the case of Starfleet, which is modeled after Navy rank, a cadet graduates and becomes an Ensign.

Oh well I have no problem with the best and brightest being given high ranks in Trek right away, plus it was cadet ship mainly so you could say they were working off cadet rakings at that time. You save Earth you can get anything you want

Pike's got taste what ya going to do

I just told you. There are no 'cadet rankings'. A cadet is a cadet is a cadet. Cadets don't outrank each other. They're all cadets. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit.

 

[clint g]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Cadet is a rank. It means officer in training. There aren't different ranks of cadets. When a cadet graduates training, they become an officer. In the case of Starfleet, which is modeled after Navy rank, a cadet graduates and becomes an Ensign.

Oh well I have no problem with the best and brightest being given high ranks in Trek right away, plus it was cadet ship mainly so you could say they were working off cadet rakings at that time. You save Earth you can get anything you want

Pike's got taste what ya going to do

I just told you. There are no 'cadet rankings'. A cadet is a cadet is a cadet. Cadets don't outrank each other. They're all cadets. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit.

Well, this is onyl quasi true. There are different cadet rankings though this only has influence when relating to other cadets. 4th year cadets for example usually play a large role in the training of the underclassmen. 3rd year cadets have influence over the sophomore and freshmen cadets. There are even different rank insignia for each position

 

[Jax]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Cadet is a rank. It means officer in training. There aren't different ranks of cadets. When a cadet graduates training, they become an officer. In the case of Starfleet, which is modeled after Navy rank, a cadet graduates and becomes an Ensign.

Oh well I have no problem with the best and brightest being given high ranks in Trek right away, plus it was cadet ship mainly so you could say they were working off cadet rakings at that time. You save Earth you can get anything you want

Pike's got taste what ya going to do

I just told you. There are no 'cadet rankings'. A cadet is a cadet is a cadet. Cadets don't outrank each other. They're all cadets. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit.

Nice to know you've been to the 23rd century to find all this out If theres a ship full of cadets serving onboard as it seems there was, then some sort of ranking structure would need to be set. I don't care really I know you hate the film and I enjoyed it despite some plot flaws.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

People who've never spent time in the military will never understand the ranking systems. It's useless to bother trying to explain it to them.

 

[Amaris]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

The on-screen evidence doesn't support it, but in my personal fantasy where the screenwriters let me edit their work, that's pretty much what I would have suggested. The only drawback being, it lacks the impact of seeing Kirk as a cadet, the actual "beginning" for him.

As for the promotion, I've made my peace with it. None of the ranks seem tied to experience: Uhura graduates as a Lieutenant, Chekov as an Ensign. If Starfleet is an organization where talented wunderkinds can graduate at 17, then it's ranking system uses no resemblance to any traditional military organization. Let's just call it a meritocracy, and be done with it.

I believe it is a meritocracy, but a distinctive one, where cases like Kirk, Uhura and Chekov are not common at all. There is obviously some military discipline, but the structure is definitely different.

My best friend who was in the military for 8 years (he left as a Chief Petty Officer) told me that he was okay with the promotion (we saw the movie last night, him for the first time). He figured that Starfleet was a different type of military structure, and that 200 years ago our military was different than it is now in merit and ranking, so no doubt 200 years from now there will be some changes. He kind of liked the idea, except that he figured Captaincy should be (in his words) "a bitch to get", but figured Kirk had earned it from everything he had done. I agreed with his assessment.

J.

 

[Peter the Younger]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

People who've never spent time in the military will never understand the ranking systems. It's useless to bother trying to explain it to them.

I realize this might get your hackles up, Odo's_Bucket, but this isn't the 21st century American military. It's the 23rd century Starfleet. The writers can make up whatever rules they want for it.

Mind you, if I had written the thing, I wouldn't have done it that way (well, if I had written the thing, and the studio couldn't order me to promote Kirk to Captain by the end of the first movie, which they probably did.)

 

[clint g]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

The on-screen evidence doesn't support it, but in my personal fantasy where the screenwriters let me edit their work, that's pretty much what I would have suggested. The only drawback being, it lacks the impact of seeing Kirk as a cadet, the actual "beginning" for him.

As for the promotion, I've made my peace with it. None of the ranks seem tied to experience: Uhura graduates as a Lieutenant, Chekov as an Ensign. If Starfleet is an organization where talented wunderkinds can graduate at 17, then it's ranking system uses no resemblance to any traditional military organization. Let's just call it a meritocracy, and be done with it.

I believe it is a meritocracy, but a distinctive one, where cases like Kirk, Uhura and Chekov are not common at all. There is obviously some military discipline, but the structure is definitely different.

My best friend who was in the military for 8 years (he left as a Chief Petty Officer) told me that he was okay with the promotion (we saw the movie last night, him for the first time). He figured that Starfleet was a different type of military structure, and that 200 years ago our military was different than it is now in merit and ranking, so no doubt 200 years from now there will be some changes. He kind of liked the idea, except that he figured Captaincy should be (in his words) "a bitch to get", but figured Kirk had earned it from everything he had done. I agreed with his assessment.

J.

I dont know, it really really sounds more like bad writing to me

 

[Amaris]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

The on-screen evidence doesn't support it, but in my personal fantasy where the screenwriters let me edit their work, that's pretty much what I would have suggested. The only drawback being, it lacks the impact of seeing Kirk as a cadet, the actual "beginning" for him.

As for the promotion, I've made my peace with it. None of the ranks seem tied to experience: Uhura graduates as a Lieutenant, Chekov as an Ensign. If Starfleet is an organization where talented wunderkinds can graduate at 17, then it's ranking system uses no resemblance to any traditional military organization. Let's just call it a meritocracy, and be done with it.

I believe it is a meritocracy, but a distinctive one, where cases like Kirk, Uhura and Chekov are not common at all. There is obviously some military discipline, but the structure is definitely different.

My best friend who was in the military for 8 years (he left as a Chief Petty Officer) told me that he was okay with the promotion (we saw the movie last night, him for the first time). He figured that Starfleet was a different type of military structure, and that 200 years ago our military was different than it is now in merit and ranking, so no doubt 200 years from now there will be some changes. He kind of liked the idea, except that he figured Captaincy should be (in his words) "a bitch to get", but figured Kirk had earned it from everything he had done. I agreed with his assessment.

J.

I dont know, it really really sounds more like bad writing to me

Well he did allow for the fact that it was apparent he was getting command at the end of the movie no matter what.

J.

 

[clint g]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

I believe it is a meritocracy, but a distinctive one, where cases like Kirk, Uhura and Chekov are not common at all. There is obviously some military discipline, but the structure is definitely different.

My best friend who was in the military for 8 years (he left as a Chief Petty Officer) told me that he was okay with the promotion (we saw the movie last night, him for the first time). He figured that Starfleet was a different type of military structure, and that 200 years ago our military was different than it is now in merit and ranking, so no doubt 200 years from now there will be some changes. He kind of liked the idea, except that he figured Captaincy should be (in his words) "a bitch to get", but figured Kirk had earned it from everything he had done. I agreed with his assessment.

J.

I dont know, it really really sounds more like bad writing to me

Well he did allow for the fact that it was apparent he was getting command at the end of the movie no matter what.

J.

To be honest the really frustrating thing about the way he became captain is that there were some obvious ways to make it seem realistic/not rushed. Sure they did make an attempt to show that he was destined to get the command anyways, but that doesn't mean it was well done.

 

[Amaris]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

I dont know, it really really sounds more like bad writing to me

Well he did allow for the fact that it was apparent he was getting command at the end of the movie no matter what.

J.

To be honest the really frustrating thing about the way he became captain is that there were some obvious ways to make it seem realistic/not rushed. Sure they did make an attempt to show that he was destined to get the command anyways, but that doesn't mean it was well done.

Well, I (and he) feel it got the job done. Overall, I loved the movie and that didn't affect it in any way.

J.

 

[clint g]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

Well he did allow for the fact that it was apparent he was getting command at the end of the movie no matter what.

J.

To be honest the really frustrating thing about the way he became captain is that there were some obvious ways to make it seem realistic/not rushed. Sure they did make an attempt to show that he was destined to get the command anyways, but that doesn't mean it was well done.

Well, I (and he) feel it got the job done. Overall, I loved the movie and that didn't affect it in any way.

J.

I enjoyed the movie as well. Actually, I loved it. But im not going to ignore the crappy writing when I see it.

 

[Amaris]

Re: Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers)

To be honest the really frustrating thing about the way he became captain is that there were some obvious ways to make it seem realistic/not rushed. Sure they did make an attempt to show that he was destined to get the command anyways, but that doesn't mean it was well done.

Well, I (and he) feel it got the job done. Overall, I loved the movie and that didn't affect it in any way.

J.

I enjoyed the movie as well. Actually, I loved it. But im not going to ignore the crappy writing when I see it.

You see it as crappy writing. I see it as an opportunity to fire up my imagination.

J.