Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussion

[Thrall]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

To my mind they COMPLETELY wimped out with the brothers. I find it nauseatingly disgusting that it's gonna get wrapped up so sweetly and all their issues get swept aside like nothing ever happened.

Othello, I don't think their issues are going to get wiped away just like that and wrapped up sweetly. There's trust needing to be rebuilt here. Things are not gonna get swept aside like nothing happened. Trust me on that.

Like I said, nitpicks and all it was eons better than the Smallville finale. Talk about a WIMP. OUT. All the genre sites are crucifying Smallville's finale. Ouch, ouch, ouch. Supernatural's is faring much better.

One major question, why was Lilith part of the plan with Ruby. Was her desire to deal with Sam a last minute change for her, with her mortality looming?

Lilith was playing Sam in "The Monster at the End of This Book," mswood. She was willing to die for Lucifer. She never wanted to deal. It was all smoke and mirrors to build up Lilith as more of an enemy to Sam. The whole mythology, with a few nitpicks, actually squares up pretty well IMO.

Sorry, yeah there will be trust issues and such but come on.... we were promised, to my mind, so much more. The brothers BARELY were at odds at all. A few arguments and a fistfight. Standard brother fallout stuff between any brothers that would happen over a woman they both liked. I wanted REAL CONFRONTATION with an all out battle that had them both LEGITIMATELY trying to kill one another. A TRUE schism that would place them 100% square against each other and doing everything in their power to take the other down even if it meant that they had to kill the other. Now THAT would have been daring and lived up to what they promised. This is lukewarm pap that really disappoints me.

BTW- I LOVE Smallville but yeah.. that was by far the weakest finale of Smallville ever.

Fair enough, but they're not going to upset the formula that much if they can help it. The fangirls wouldn't like it. They still have an episodic method to storytelling for that reason.

 

[PurpleBuddha]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that douche angel is god.

God wants to free Lucifer so he can finally be defeated. In this episode, Douche angel did say that Dean was going to kill Lucifer. Before Lucifer could be freed the seals had to be broken, and god used each of the people in the show to get it done.

Finally, when he said to Dean, 'god has left the building', Dean turned around only to see that douche angel had left the building. The timing on this was so on point to the line that it had to be intentional.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Seriously I can't see teh producers (let alone the CW) having the show have their only leads playing completely opposite to each other. First if they did that, it means they would have to tell separate stories for those two characters, and have them not be in contact with each other.

Instead they started the season with one primary goal to prevent Lucifer from rising. The conflict arose naturally between their characters and was used to showcase how they came at teh same issue in two completely different ways.

They never had the show go that Dean is going for stopping the coming war and Sam was trying to start it (that would truly cause the type of conflict you expected). Instead Dean's primary worries is that Sam was simply going to lose himself (which he did, just not in the way Dean thought) and literally turn into a monster.

But I think the writers showcased Dean's feelings on this (and how far he would go) quite nicely.

I even in Born Under a Bad sign where Sam appears to be a cold blooded murderer Dean can't kill him, he literally wont. ANd thats when Sam is directly causes harm to others. So I could never see Dean directly taking ethal action against Sam for something that just might being effecting Sam. (and at this point besides drinking blood, he hasn't done anything that hasn't benefitted the good guys). So I could really Liked that they pushed to the point that Dean, might not cause Sam death, but he might be willing to let Sam die (which again shows a huge change from just two years previously).

And Sam for his part, really struck out at Dean. He never has before, and to not only beat the crap out of him, but to be straggling him (never a good sign) before he regain his senses, showed how serious Sam was about this.

Whats interesting is both Sam and Dean were both right about the other. Dean was right that Ruby was manipulating him and that he was going to lose himself.

And Sam was right that the Angels were not to be trusted and that Dean wasn't strong enough to kill Lilith (when they both thought that was what they should be doing). We learn that was never Dean's purpose, and all the talk about the angels trying to stop the seals being broken was bullshit, they want this battle as much as hell does.

There are three things I really want to see addressed fairly early next season.

Sam needs to face up to what he did to the possessed nurse. And the ramification of that action.

Dean needs to find out about the angels manipulation (freeing Sam, changing his phone message).

And some serious hesitation on rebuilding their relationship.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Major annoyance:

In the fine tradition of "if only characters talked to each other... but the writers don't want that to happen" --

Okay, so Dean was locked out. Why couldn't he *yell* "Don't kill Lilith, she's the final seal!"?

You can argue "Sam would probably ignore that" all you want, but it's academic, as Dean DID NOT DO WHAT ANY NORMAL THINKING PERSON WOULD HAVE DONE.

Dammit, writers and their railroad track plots.

Dean did yell that she was the final seal; that was my assumption. That was the point of the heightened heart beat, distorted sound, and Ruby screaming at him what are you waiting for. Sam was in such a heightened state of arousal that he couldn't hear Dean, or rather what Dean was saying didn't register. That Dean's voice barely pierced through the chaos in Sam's mind is testament to their bond. The deed was done by the time Sam calmed down. I'm sure Dean figured that out on the other side of the door--flash of light and explosive sound and all the associated demony death side effects. Also Ruby probably quit screaming at Sam to do it.

So I....really Liked that they pushed to the point that Dean, might not cause Sam death, but he might be willing to let Sam die (which again shows a huge change from just two years previously).

I liked this as well. Dean being willing to let Sam die, even to (ostensibly) save his soul, is a huge change for Dean. It's true character growth and change.

Othello,

You love Smallville? Why? It's complete crap anymore.

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Othello,

You love Smallville? Why? It's complete crap anymore.

It's pure geekery for me. Can't help it. Grew so very attached to it as I think Lionel and Lex Luthor are, along with Elim Garak, some of the best characters to have ever graced the TV screen. I loved getting under people's skin defending Lex's actions against Clark and lionel's complete basterdness. Add in the fact that I really liked the Lana character, and think KK is incredibly beautiful, and get no end of joy defending both her and her character while others ripped her apart and giving people grief for their obsession with Chole and you got a series I can't get away from even without Lex and lionel around anymore!! I still like to stick it to the Chole lovers out there and I do still enjoy the show even with some of it's flaws!

I tend to view things differently than most people. Soemtimes for real, sometimes for the sheer fun of it..... but it's always FUN to do so!

I was that guy in a philosopohy class on ethics that would defend postions that would annoy the hell out of people just to provoke dicussion. Teachers always knew they could count on me to put forth defenses of stuff other people never wanted to defend for the sheer joy of discusion and occassionally just to annoy/mess with people.

There is a lot of fun doing a debate againt someone who is arguing for something you believe in and beating them and/or frustrating the hell out of them.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Othello....you hate Dean Winchester, but you love Lana Lang?

Oy vey. My friend, I think you must enjoy being contrary, indeed. Addicted to Smallville and disappointed by SPN.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Hell even I really liked Smallville. For that type of show, I think its first season is really well done. ANd yeah when Lex and Lionel are written well those actors really, really delivered.

But I really think the show lost all its charm (on an episode to episode) by the end of its third season.

Well it looks like we wont have to watch it, before watching Supernatural this new season.

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Othello....you hate Dean Winchester, but you love Lana Lang?

Oy vey. My friend, I think you must enjoy being contrary, indeed. Addicted to Smallville and disappointed by SPN.

Oh, I'm addicted to Supernatural as well. And I was only disappointed with the finale. I LOVE Supernatural almost as much as Smallville. maybe as much or more now without Lionel and Lex around.

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Oh and with Lana I detested how Clark treated her. Everyone else looks at Lana, and lex for that matter, and sees how they relate to Superman in the future and constantly excuse everything Clark ever does and bitch about how people react to him cause he's Superman instead of looking at the here and now and understanding where they, Lana and Lex, are coming from at that point in their lives.

It also doesn't hurt that I think KK is one of the hottest women on the planet. LOL She'd be ranked pretty high if I ever did a Maxim Hot 100 type list. Some prefer Chloe/AM I prefer Lana/KK. :>))

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Oh and with Lana I detested how Clark treated her. Everyone else looks at Lana, and lex for that matter, and sees how they relate to Superman in the future and constantly excuse everything Clark ever does and bitch about how people react to him cause he's Superman instead of looking at the here and now and understanding where they, Lana and Lex, are coming from at that point in their lives.

Why, that's because he's Clark the good and he's always right. Didn't you get the memo, Othello? That's why I find the Winchesters more refreshing. They have geeks calling them "douche nozzles" online and favorite uncle/surrogate fathers who call them whiny princesses. Everyone doesn't always think they're right.

Heck, even I used to think Smallville was kind of entertaining. I agree with you and mswood on that score, but it reached the end of the creative road a loooong time ago. It happens to every show. That's why it's getting shunted off to Fridays at last I suppose. But does Supernatural finally get the plum 8 p.m. slot? Nooooooo, of course not. The vampire diaries get it. Oh well, going against the big three and against Fringe next fall (not that I think SPN will lose fans but Fringe will further slice into that 18-34 pie) may assure SPN a finite, five year run and really.....that's okay with me. I don't want SPN to run out of steam and where do they go after finally defeating Lucifer, you know? Heck--some Fringe fans are worried about losing out to SPN. That's refreshing to hear. They wonder how much of their ratings are due to the former lead in from Idol. I guess we'll find out. I sampled Fringe. Personally, I thought it was dreadful but it is another "genre" show in the slot. Actually, what I hear most from Fringe fans is worry about being on in the same time slot as "The Office." Go figure.

Supernatural has a full 22 episode order, so it's all good. I hope it goes out on top creatively. I hear what you're saying about being a little frustrated about the finale, Othello. I liked it creatively, but it did feel like a big tease....which it was to draw us into the really big battle with Lucie next fall.