Why were the rebels ''rebelling'' against the EMPIRE again?

[FPAlpha]

If all else can be somehow rationally explained then by the point Tarkin strikes Alderaan it is pretty clear that this government that puts such people in command has to be removed.

One doesn't need a short civil liberties discussion to be able to understand why the Empire is bad.. that big black armored dude choking an "enemy" soldier until his neck breaks is proof enough that something is fishy.

 

[Maurice]

Because in movie serials the bad guys were always evil.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

A single squad of stormtroopers killed the Jawas, yes, but secrets vital to national security in a time of war had passed (unknowningly) through their little anything goes merchant hands, presumably heading for at least one Rebel agent. Without knowing the details of the event, I would categorize this under overly zealous and morally ambiguous. Luke's aunt and uncle were killed by the same group of stormtroopers on the same mission following the same secrets.

Actually, the Jawas were killed because they got caught selling stolen droids and attacked the troopers. Beru was an abusive mental case and killed herself and Owen with a stolen thermal detonator.

 

[Heeroyuy]

Regarding Palpatine's motivation creating the Empire:


In interviews with Lucas and also partially in film dialogue, Lucas seems to have intended that the Sith ruled the galaxy before the Republic. ("Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy" "The oppression of the Sith will never return!" etc.). Palpatine is therefore restoring this order.

However, this creates problems with the EU backstory for the Sith, which has both the Sith and the Republic as being much older (Based on Obi-Wan's line "For a thousand generations"). Attempts have been made to fix this, such as adding a Republic "Dark age" and stuff....

An alternate motivation for Palpatine creating the Emprie is also revealed in the novel Outbound Flight. Basically he wanted to prepare the galaxy for the Yuzzhan Vong invasion; and basically what the Rebels do is screw that up by winning and when they build their own government, they aren't prepared. It's a 'retcon' of sorts that doesn't sit well with fans....oddly it comes from the most acclaimed SW EU writer, Timothy Zahn.


Also regarding Palpatine, Lucas's original idea was for him to be a weak ruler, with the regional governors-men like Tarkin-holding the real power in the Empire. This is made pretty clear in various early notes and in the novel. The evil Sith lord who was Vader's master wasn't really invented until EMPIRE. Heck, it wasn't even clear if Palpatine was a Sith at all until the prequels.

 

[Shawnster]

And I will rebut the entire preceding argument with one sentence.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Even though this statement is correct it doesn't really apply to the argument you are rebutting.

The simple fact is the reasons for the Rebellion were never mentioned in Episodes IV - VI. Period. Granted, the Empire may have been evil. Granted, the Empire may have been responsible for terrible atrocities BEFORE the events of Episode IV. Granted, everything the Empire has been accused of may have been true. The fact of the matter is it took Lucas three prequel movies to establish the reasons for the Rebellion.

Even at that the Empire has never been portrayed in the movies as xenophobic, enslaving or causing heavy taxation. No movie depicts the Empire capturing or using slaves (Tatooine, on the other hand, had slaves under the Republic). The empire at the rise of Palpatine appeared to have non-human supporters and it was the Republic and the Trade Federation that were squabbling over taxes in Episode I.

While absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence that doesn't mean anyone can go around leveling blame and accusations without a foundation of support.

 

[sojourner]

True. What I am really getting at, which supports your argument as well as mine, is that we have very little visual data on which to base any assumptions either way. Any scene in those movies could have situations supporting both our arguments just outside camera range (stormtroopers feeding the homeless, rebels suicide bombing grocery stores, etc)

 

[Christopher]

No, it is actually not directly addressed in dialogue. We're shown a rebellion exists and that the Empire does some pretty hardcore things to those they consider enemies, but there's nothing actually in the body of the movie itself that communicates, "The Empire did really bad thing 'A' before the opening crawl, so the Rebels rebelled thusly." Events seen during the movie can't be used as the excuse for the Rebellion, unless cause and effect are reversed.

Not really. I mean, if we're told right at the beginning of the movie that the Senate has been dissolved in favor of one man's absolute rule -- let alone that the Empire has just completed building a massively destructive space station named the Death Star -- it's pretty easy to extrapolate that the Empire wasn't all sunshine and roses before that moment. If a movie begins with a man holding up a hardware store to steal a shovel and says he has bodies to bury, I don't assume that cause and effect are reversed if he's already running from the police. It's easy enough to assume he committed prior acts that justified the pursuit.

The main problem is that Palpatine amassed all this power... but for what, exactly? History shows that dictators invariably make war, but, rebellion aside, there doesn't seem to be anyone for the Empire to fight. Which is where Christopher's injunction against overthinking comes in.

No, dictators don't invariably make war. A dictator is someone who imposes absolute power on one's own subjects. Sometimes that's in the service of winning a war (or the war is the excuse for imposing the dictatorship), but sometimes it's entirely an internal matter. Kim Jong Il has never gone to war with any other country (unless you count the fact that North and South Korea are still technically at war even though no shots have been fired since 1953), but he is a dictator who brutally oppresses his people and leaves them impoverished to feed his own wealth.

For many dictators, emperors, and the like, power is not a means to an end, but an end in itself. Everything they do is directed toward the goal of making themselves more powerful, feeding their cults of personality, crushing all resistance to their absolute rule, etc. They're megalomaniacs -- everything they do revolves around elevating themselves, feeding their own egos. To them, there is no higher priority than self-aggrandizement. This is the classic type of archvillain from comics and adventure serials and the like, but there are certainly plenty of examples from real life as well.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Actually, the Jawas were killed because they got caught selling stolen droids and attacked the troopers. Beru was an abusive mental case and killed herself and Owen with a stolen thermal detonator.

You know what...did Luke even check the homestead before running back to Obi-Wan? He just assumed those skeletons were his aunt and uncle. They could've been sand people corpses (yeah, the bones look human, but who knows what the sand people look like) or stormtrooper bodies. Shit, Owen may have popped his heads out the door after Luke takes off and been like "That's Luke, where's he going? Guess I should bury these bodies."

Also, Obi-Wan wants Luke to go with him, so he Jedi Mind Tricks Luke into thinking the empire killed the Jawas, when it was the sand people...sand people, who by the way, may actually serve Obi-Wan (since Kenobi seems to live in or near their territory). It's not a big leap to speculate that while Luke rested, Obi-Wan sent his tusken raiders to dispose of the Lars couple, who'd have outlived their usefulness in Kenobi's plans.

Alien thugs harass Luke in the bar...they were plants. Kenobi wanted to both impress and save Luke.

I maintain the real villain in Star Wars was the manipulative old wizard "Ben" Kenobi. He reeled Luke in hook, line and sinker.

 

[Shawnster]

I've always thought the Star Wars trilogy would have worked well in any nation. The Soviets could have shown the trilogy and said the Rebels were fighting for the freedom of the workers against the rich Imperialists. Since the actual terms of the rebellion were never spelled out the movie works for any ideology.

 

[Aragorn]

You know what...did Luke even check the homestead before running back to Obi-Wan? He just assumed those skeletons were his aunt and uncle. They could've been sand people corpses (yeah, the bones look human, but who knows what the sand people look like) or stormtrooper bodies. Shit, Owen may have popped his heads out the door after Luke takes off and been like "That's Luke, where's he going? Guess I should bury these bodies."

Actually, Owen and Beru were the biggest death stick dealers in that part of the galaxy, so when the Empire finally caught up to them, they had to fake their deaths and flee.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Empire was anti-democratic.

Why a religious order who claims to have direct access to "the mind of God" (the Force) would consider democracy to have enough authority over them that they would fight for it, is another issue entirely.

 

[Christopher]

Why a religious order who claims to have direct access to "the mind of God" (the Force) would consider democracy to have enough authority over them that they would fight for it, is another issue entirely.

The Force was never defined as "the mind of God." That's too Western an interpretation of something that was inspired more by Eastern philosophy/religion. The Force was defined as the energy field that binds all living things together. Not a superior, singular being ruling over the universe, but an emanation originating from every life form in the universe and uniting them. In the philosophy of the Force, all power comes from the masses. So it's a natural fit with democratic (or even Marxist) politics.

(And yeah, I know about the midichlorian retcon, but that's clearly meant as an analogy for mitochondria, the symbiotic organelles that inhabit every cell in our bodies and are the source of our metabolic energy. So while they're in a sense something separate from us, they're still integrally a part of us all, and it still fits the idea of cosmic power emanating from the smallest, most individual level rather than descending from on high.)

 

[Mooch]

The rebels were fighting for democracy. Although the senate wasn't dissolved until be beginning of EP4, I think it is reasonable to assume the senators were basically appointed by Palpy at that point. Once the Death Star was complete he decided he didn't need them anymore.

I maintain the real villain in Star Wars was the manipulative old wizard "Ben" Kenobi. He reeled Luke in hook, line and sinker.

If that were the case why did he stay out of Luke's life for so long? Why not raise him himself?

 

[Christopher]

The rebels were fighting for democracy. Although the senate wasn't dissolved until be beginning of EP4, I think it is reasonable to assume the senators were basically appointed by Palpy at that point. Once the Death Star was complete he decided he didn't need them anymore.

I always had the sense that the Senate was the only check on Palpatine's power, the one thing that kept him from being an absolute dictator, so that things weren't as bad as they could've been. He dissolved the Senate precisely because they weren't just a rubber-stamp legislature but an actual force of opposition. Keep in mind that Leia was herself addressed as a Senator in the original movie. Perhaps the Rebel Alliance was originally more of an opposition party, but as Palpatine came closer and closer to dissolving the Senate and seizing absolute power, senators like Leia began organizing it into a resistance force so they could fight back if they proved unable to ward off the Senate's dissolution.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

I maintain the real villain in Star Wars was the manipulative old wizard "Ben" Kenobi. He reeled Luke in hook, line and sinker.

If that were the case why did he stay out of Luke's life for so long? Why not raise him himself?

It's all part of the plan...Kenobi lost Anakin to Palpatine due to Anakin's desire for greater power. He knew Luke had to have a dull, non-Jedi upbringing, so adventure would appeal to him more than power. Ben Kenobi would be the cool weird guy out the woods, while Uncle Owen was the "bad cop".

 

[Mistral]

The Rebels wanted dental and eye added to the health insurance plan (though universal health care when it's the entire universe is just way to $$$$) and a tournament to determine the true college football champion. When the Empire suggested a soda tax and that all TV broadcasts switch from analog to digital, that was going too far and action had to be taken.

I thought the fundamental motivation had its roots in the Coke/New Coke scandal years previously. While the need for health care seemed important, with the advent of the Death Star and the destruction of entire worlds the Empire proved it was willing to take action in regards to the sick people of the galaxy. However, the Emperor's insistence that New Coke was "just as good" proved to be his undoing. Some things people just won't sit still for.

You know what...did Luke even check the homestead before running back to Obi-Wan? He just assumed those skeletons were his aunt and uncle. They could've been sand people corpses (yeah, the bones look human, but who knows what the sand people look like) or stormtrooper bodies. Shit, Owen may have popped his heads out the door after Luke takes off and been like "That's Luke, where's he going? Guess I should bury these bodies."

Actually, Owen and Beru were the biggest death stick dealers in that part of the galaxy, so when the Empire finally caught up to them, they had to fake their deaths and flee.

They're now living in a suburban space station two systems over from the Dagobah region under assumed names. While Beru has wisely kept a low profile, Owen has managed to get picked up twice for selling tainted motor oil to unlicensed droids.

 

[hyzmarca]

If all else can be somehow rationally explained then by the point Tarkin strikes Alderaan it is pretty clear that this government that puts such people in command has to be removed.

The decision to destroy Alderaan probably saved lives in the long run, or would have. Alderaan's princess claimed that it had no weapons, but we know this to be untrue, because Alderaan was secretly supplying weapons to the rebellion, and just came into possession of plans for a superlaser, which Alderaan had the resources to construct for the Rebels.

A traditional ground invasion of the planet would have taken months, perhaps years, pulled neighboring systems into the fray on one side or the other, most likely the other.

 

[Christopher]

The decision to destroy Alderaan probably saved lives in the long run, or would have. Alderaan's princess claimed that it had no weapons, but we know this to be untrue, because Alderaan was secretly supplying weapons to the rebellion, and just came into possession of plans for a superlaser, which Alderaan had the resources to construct for the Rebels.

Ahh, yes, I remember Grand Moff Rumsfeld's press conference about the WMDs on Alderaan.

 

[Thrall]

I think the whole doing away with democracy, institutionalized racism, the murder of The Jedi, and enslavement of The Wookies and other non-human races is probably what did it.

Why a religious order who claims to have direct access to "the mind of God" (the Force) would consider democracy to have enough authority over them that they would fight for it, is another issue entirely.

Because then they'd be just like The Sith.

 

[Heeroyuy]

Interestingly the Force Unleashed game reveals that the Rebellion was secretly created by Vader and the Emperor using the Secret Apprentice in order to gather all the Empire's enemies in one spot. Unfortunately the Rebels escape and form a legit rebellion. Sort of an interesting twist but it reduces the impact of the movies (A problem with a lot of EU)