I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek.

[Michael]

... the most viewed thread in that forum ...

Not only that. It has become one of my favorite threads of the whole Trek BBS. Even though Voyager is actually my least favorite Trek series.

 

[TheGodBen]

... the most viewed thread in that forum ...

Not only that. It has become one of my favorite threads of the whole Trek BBS. Even though Voyager is actually my least favorite Trek series.

No need to thank me, but please do anyway.

 

[donners22]

If I'm bored while watching a movie then my mind can't help it, if I'm being entertained then it doesn't matter. Suffice it to say that I did not find Star Trek entertaining.

I actually found it entertaining. I just also found it incredibly stupid. If it had been some random space action movie, I probably would have been pleasantly surprised by it. But I guess I expect more out of Trek than that. Trek shouldn't have dumbed down idiocy like stowaway ensigns being promoted directly to Captain of the Flagship. IMO it needs to remain at least somewhat plausable for it to be a good movie, and the new Trek movie is about as plausable as your typical Michael Bay movie.

I agree with that to an extent. My hope is that many of the new viewers brought in by this film will check out other Star Trek shows and films, and hopefully be able to appreciate the greater depth.

We have our hundreds of hours of quality entertainment already. If this films brings in more people to share them, I have no issue with it.

 

[RAMA]

It’s been a difficult road to travel to commit to this opinion; after all, there’s been so much fun and anticipation over the last two years on this board--SHOUTING SPOCK, Blue Warp Nacelles, the sombreros, Badass Robau and, of course, the Generic Parody Thread which was the reason I registered after lurking for years. And I’ve really had a wonderful time looking forward to the premier with everyone on this forum. But I’ll just say it.

Star Trek is not good. I watched it twice, and, after careful consideration, I don’t like it.

I considered titling this “Thread for People of Conflicted Opinion,” because that’s also how I feel right now. Sitting in the theater, surrounded by lots of other people, watching the movie was very enjoyable. I laughed when we were expected to laugh, I cried at Kirk’s birth and over Spock and Sarek’s conversation on the transporter pad. I loved seeing Nimoy again. All the new actors had their characters spot-on. I dug the references to all the past Trek productions. And yet, somehow, a malaise set in over the course of the film and as it entered the third act I felt unfulfilled as a viewer. After my friends and I left the theater opening night, having enjoyed ourselves immensely, I got to wondering why it seemed like I hadn’t had as good a time as I thought I had. When I get right down to it, I asked myself “Was this a good movie?”

And my gut reaction was: “no.”

Sure, it was fun, funny, moving, energetic, shiny, charming, charismatic, and all the things that should make for a great film, but somehow they didn’t gel, and I can’t escape the impression of the movie as a fast-talking car salesman who keeps the patter going so you feel good and don’t notice that you’re being fleeced.

It’s difficult to articulate why; I’m one of those people who often finds that others can articulate how I feel about things better than I can, and so I often look to other posters to find a better version of what I wish I could post. But in this case, the majority opinion is that ST is very, very good. And I’m happy for them; it’s the reaction we’d all been hoping for, and that I’d been wishing to experience myself. And while there is a dissenting minority, it seems to consist of whiny unhappy fanboys whose primary concern is keeping things in line with a stilted checklist of minutiae from past productions; these two viewpoints find themselves at odds in every thread of this forum and stifle productive discussion about the merits and failings of the movie and how things could have or should have been improved. Hell, the one thread here where some of that seemed to be happening got shut down as a result of actions by two of the film’s supporters. I think there are grounds for serious critiques of what Abrams and company have created, yet it can’t seem to find a voice around here thanks to a polarization of the forum that had its groundwork laid years ago.

So I’m left to wonder: where is the constructive criticism? The input from people who don’t think this movie is all that but still want to see it, or some variation of it, succeed? Are constructive criticisms or grey-area opinions even possible? Because I’m not against the concept of a reboot, or rejuvenation, or remake, or whatever you want to call it; quite the contrary. The promise of JJTrek was more than we’d seen in years, and on some level I’m upset that I don’t feel the way about the movie that I’d hoped I would. But the whole production was so glib, so willing to crack the joke or take the teeth out of the drama by pulling some silly-but-entertaining stunt that it was all too often impossible to invest emotionally in what was happening. It seems to be failing of a lot of Hollywood films these days, to use character drama to set up a final, third-act fight, which, once underway, makes characterization extraneous and that reduces the finale to a string of meaningless punches and explosions. That’s not where I wanted to see these characters or this world go, and I don’t know that there’s a place here any more for this kind of discussion, at least not as a way to score a cheap shot against the other side.

So...what say you, denizens of the Trek XI forum? Am I alone on this?

I respect your post greatly. Its ok to have an opinion different from the majority of course. Its the "purists" I have probs with.

RAMA

 

[trampledamage]

Apologies, before I start, for quoting from the entire history of the thread- this is the first time I've read through it.

I loved that Kirk's brilliance was hampered by his impetuousness. I could see and feel Spock's inner conflict. I believed that McCoy cared about the people around him more than his demeanour would indicate.

The three of them felt right. They felt like they always have.

So, for me, the writers and JJ got the people of Star Trek right. The story was a mess and the science was even more slap-dash than usual. But the emotional core of Trek, the holy triumverate if you will, was intact and shining brightly at the heart of this film.

This is exactly how I feel about the movie too. In terms of plot and science, no it's not a good film, but I loved it because of the characters and because what I wanted were the characters, for me it's a great film.

Hey, we've yet to see what they'll do with the TNG/DS9/Titan stuff from here - but they seem to have just done some big relaunches where the book series are concerned. I haven't heard anyone in any official capacity say that that universe is done, by any means.

Maybe they think they can have their Kate (Janeway), and Edith (Keeler), too.

You totally win the New Timeline Bad Pun Award!

Part of the problem is, I think, that the film's best scene--the battle of the Kelvin and Kirk's birth/George's death--happens right at the opening. I'd been hearing about how powerful that scene was and figured it could never live up to the hype. Yet it did, and so it set my expectations for the film very, very high, because the writers had just shown what they're capable of if they try. Conversely, the finale lacked just about everything that made the opening work. I wasn't invested in Nero as an antagonist, so I didn't care about him or the destruction of the Narada, the conflict between Kirk and Spock was dropped so there was no tension there, and as I already mentioned, the tone stayed inappropriately jocular throughout so it was hard to feel like these were real people really fighting a fight that mattered. And by that time, the seams in the story's logic had started to show, straining the goodwill it had built by that point.

That's a very good point, and I agree that the Kelvin scenes were the best of the movie. But my enjoyment of the new characters built onto that beginning rather than dissipating it.

 

[Jamie H]

Part of the problem is, I think, that the film's best scene--the battle of the Kelvin and Kirk's birth/George's death--happens right at the opening. I'd been hearing about how powerful that scene was and figured it could never live up to the hype. Yet it did, and so it set my expectations for the film very, very high, because the writers had just shown what they're capable of if they try. Conversely, the finale lacked just about everything that made the opening work. I wasn't invested in Nero as an antagonist, so I didn't care about him or the destruction of the Narada, the conflict between Kirk and Spock was dropped so there was no tension there, and as I already mentioned, the tone stayed inappropriately jocular throughout so it was hard to feel like these were real people really fighting a fight that mattered. And by that time, the seams in the story's logic had started to show, straining the goodwill it had built by that point.

That's a very good point, and I agree that the Kelvin scenes were the best of the movie. But my enjoyment of the new characters built onto that beginning rather than dissipating it.

Agreed, the Kelvin scenes are really good and had me really stoked. Which is why I think I ended up feeling let down. The rest of the movie never lived up to the gravity and weight of that opening scene. Honestly, I probably would have ended up happier with a movie centered around the Kelvin than what we got, but that would have been much MUCH harder (probably impossible) to market.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

It’s been a difficult road to travel to commit to this opinion; after all, there’s been so much fun and anticipation over the last two years on this board--SHOUTING SPOCK, Blue Warp Nacelles, the sombreros, Badass Robau and, of course, the Generic Parody Thread which was the reason I registered after lurking for years. And I’ve really had a wonderful time looking forward to the premier with everyone on this forum. But I’ll just say it.

Star Trek is not good. I watched it twice, and, after careful consideration, I don’t like it.

I considered titling this “Thread for People of Conflicted Opinion,” because that’s also how I feel right now. Sitting in the theater, surrounded by lots of other people, watching the movie was very enjoyable. I laughed when we were expected to laugh, I cried at Kirk’s birth and over Spock and Sarek’s conversation on the transporter pad. I loved seeing Nimoy again. All the new actors had their characters spot-on. I dug the references to all the past Trek productions. And yet, somehow, a malaise set in over the course of the film and as it entered the third act I felt unfulfilled as a viewer. After my friends and I left the theater opening night, having enjoyed ourselves immensely, I got to wondering why it seemed like I hadn’t had as good a time as I thought I had. When I get right down to it, I asked myself “Was this a good movie?”

And my gut reaction was: “no.”

Sure, it was fun, funny, moving, energetic, shiny, charming, charismatic, and all the things that should make for a great film, but somehow they didn’t gel, and I can’t escape the impression of the movie as a fast-talking car salesman who keeps the patter going so you feel good and don’t notice that you’re being fleeced.

It’s difficult to articulate why; I’m one of those people who often finds that others can articulate how I feel about things better than I can, and so I often look to other posters to find a better version of what I wish I could post. But in this case, the majority opinion is that ST is very, very good. And I’m happy for them; it’s the reaction we’d all been hoping for, and that I’d been wishing to experience myself. And while there is a dissenting minority, it seems to consist of whiny unhappy fanboys whose primary concern is keeping things in line with a stilted checklist of minutiae from past productions; these two viewpoints find themselves at odds in every thread of this forum and stifle productive discussion about the merits and failings of the movie and how things could have or should have been improved. Hell, the one thread here where some of that seemed to be happening got shut down as a result of actions by two of the film’s supporters. I think there are grounds for serious critiques of what Abrams and company have created, yet it can’t seem to find a voice around here thanks to a polarization of the forum that had its groundwork laid years ago.

So I’m left to wonder: where is the constructive criticism? The input from people who don’t think this movie is all that but still want to see it, or some variation of it, succeed? Are constructive criticisms or grey-area opinions even possible? Because I’m not against the concept of a reboot, or rejuvenation, or remake, or whatever you want to call it; quite the contrary. The promise of JJTrek was more than we’d seen in years, and on some level I’m upset that I don’t feel the way about the movie that I’d hoped I would. But the whole production was so glib, so willing to crack the joke or take the teeth out of the drama by pulling some silly-but-entertaining stunt that it was all too often impossible to invest emotionally in what was happening. It seems to be failing of a lot of Hollywood films these days, to use character drama to set up a final, third-act fight, which, once underway, makes characterization extraneous and that reduces the finale to a string of meaningless punches and explosions. That’s not where I wanted to see these characters or this world go, and I don’t know that there’s a place here any more for this kind of discussion, at least not as a way to score a cheap shot against the other side.

So...what say you, denizens of the Trek XI forum? Am I alone on this?

I respect your post greatly. Its ok to have an opinion different from the majority of course. Its the "purists" I have probs with.

RAMA

I enjoyed his post too.

And maybe I'm speaking too much as a mod, but I don't even have a problem with the 'purists'.

The only people I have a problem with are assholes. Whether they like the movie or hate the movie, or anything in between.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek.

The only people I have a problem with are assholes.

Hey, standing right here!

 

[Mycobac]

[


Just... no.

Every fanbase I've ever been a part of has had shit like this before EVERY season, movie, book, whatever. "I'll forgive this one, because it had to accomplish X, but if the next one isn't exactly what I (and thus the True Fans) want, it's over for the whole franchise."

Get over yourself.

You completely missed the point of what I was saying.

By alienating a portion of your fanbase, you remove the safety net. Star Trek survived through many BAD movies (especially V) because of a loyal fan base that was willing to say "yeah, that sucked, but maybe the next one will be good".

This time, there isn't really a "next one". If you are someone who isn't really interested in this new alternate reality, there may never BE a "next one". There is literally no chance they will make a compelling film in the Trek Prime universe for probably at least 10 years, if not 20 or more, or even ever.

Star Wars has essentially survived 3 rather bad films in a row, with fans coming back over and over to see if they have managed to get it right yet. Why? Because it is Star Wars and when Star Wars is good, it is awesome. But good or bad, the films have always remained Star Wars, with characters and story lines that span the entirety of the series. That makes it must-see viewing every time a movie comes out, even if the movie isn't the best. You don't want to miss out on what happened in the Star Wars storyline.

With the new Alternate Trek have that kind of staying power? Sure, it is super cool to love it right now, but 1 underperforming film has been more than enough to kill off other franchises. Will enough people really care about what happens in this alternate time-line to come back if a stinker gets made in there? Maybe we won't have to find out becasue all the movies will rock, but the law of averages says that isn't likely to be.

Of all the Star Trek XI threads this seems to be the most civil so I decided to post here even if this particular line of argument might stray a bit from the intent of the original poster.

My main question is: "Is it really necessary to destroy in order to create?" Clearly there was something wrong with the franchise as it had consistently been hemorrhaging fans, However, is throwing everything out and starting anew really the best idea? Obviously movie making is a business and the people at Paramount are there to make money not cater to the fans or work for some higher artistic calling. But, was this really the best business decision? Clearly Star Trek, more than most other shows, has been in large part made and supported by the fans. We can on occasion be rabid and inflexible but we are above all, loyal. I am not a raving at the mouth canon-nazi and am not going to be nitpicking every little "inconsistency" or "plot-hole". As several people have mentioned, this is science-FICTION, with emphasis on the fiction, not the science. I am not going to complain about minor plot points which may not fit with previously established story lines as that is in fact quite stifling to creativity. But, the basic premise of this movie isn't just "this is a re-imagining", it is "nothing that you saw and liked really happened". To use a somewhat crude analogy: I go to the sandwich store and ask for a roast beef sandwich but instead of the traditional sandwich with roast beef, lettuce, tomatoes, etc...they have a new "reimagined" sandwich made with pieces of roast beef mixed in with turkey and ham, with cabbage, beets, and chipotle sauce. The fact that it is called a roast beef sandwich doesn't make me want to eat it. It is unreasonable to assume that simply because it shares the same name I would automatically be expected to like it. Additionally, calling me stupid and inflexible isn't more likely to get me to try the new sandwich just to go to another store and get my roast beef sandwich there.

Has the new movie reinvigorated a flagging franchise? Undoubtedly. Will it bring in new fans? Certainly. However, it will also lose quite a few. Over the years I have spent several thousands of dollars on the Star Trek franchise in one form or another (does that make me a loser? probably). But I will not be spending any money on this new franchise. I am under no illusion that I am it's sole source of revenue and no one will likely even notice, but I doubt that I am the only one that feels this way and it will add up. Clearly $79.2 million is a success by any estimation, but Jamie H makes a good point that it’s like leaving your wife to chase after a younger girl. A lot of the people contributing to this would be just as happy going to see Transformers 2, or G.I. Joe, or any other summer blockbuster. Odds are, if a sequel is made it will also do very well, but somehow I doubt that the vast majority of these new fans will spend any money on Star Trek reference books, or action figures, or going to a convention to meet Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto (maybe Zoe Zaldana). Ironically, the very same "losers" most likely to be offended and off-put by the new movie are the very same "losers" that would drop thousands of dollars on tie-ins. And, in my opinion it was unnecessary, Star Trek could have still been just as "reinvigorating", "exciting", and "fun" while still not changing pretty much everything about the franchise up to date. It could have simply involved the characters having appropriately daring and universe-saving adventures and simply not mentioning "canon" and letting watchers decide on their own whether it fit with their “canon” or not. Sure there would have still been "outraged fans" but they would have been much fewer in number and probably would have consisted mostly of the truly “loony fringe”. The new movie has made the franchise $80,000,000 but it could just as easily made it $80,001,000 dollars contributed by me (considering tie-ins and such). Not a vitally important sum, I grant you but I do not see how it would be financially undesirable.

Once again I apologize for somewhat altering the topic of the discussion and I'm sorry if it sounds like a rant but I just wanted to share my views and get some opinions.

 

[Thrawn]

Because no matter what you do, you piss off SOMEBODY. If they'd made it take place during the actual TOS, people would've been pissed off by the new ship design, and by the dramatic limitations. If they'd done a total reboot, people would've been pissed off that it disrespected the original even more. This was a hybrid, where it gained some narrative drive from the explicit handoff from the old Spock to the new crew, and strikes me as a pretty solid compromise between the two extremes.

But no matter what, there'd be somebody making a long-ass post like yours. "Why didn't they just have it be an alternate timeline? Why do a reboot completely? Why ignore 40 years of canon when it could've at least been acknowledged?"

You can't please everyone.

 

[Aragorn]

I don't know what people think has been destroyed. You know all those Trek episodes that deal with mirror/parallel universes? Same thing here, only now we're following the universe that's usually forgotten by the end of the episode.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Who spends double the amount of money to see a film twice just to confirm they didn't like it?

I can't speak for him but I like and really need to view an episode or film twice anymore these days because they move so fast and throw so much at you that I want to make sure any criticisms I have are actually justified and not because I misunderstood or didn't hear some bit of dialogue given the rapid-fire nature in which it is relayed. This film specifically moves so fast and throws so much at you that without the luxury of being able to rewind or pause I really wasn't afforded the chance to let everything sink in. It used to be the case that films or tv shows would let a viewer appreciate or take in a scene before moving on but these days it is rush!rush!rush!

The first time through there is so much information to process-who is who, does this bit of info make sense, when does this scene occur relative to that--that I find myself trying to put all the information, dates into order that I really don't get to sit back and just enjoy it. I realize for people who don't avoid spoilers, early reviews, trailers, writers' interviews, script leaks etc they pretty much know what's going on from the start. Also the way films and even tv shows are structured these days I find I need to watch it for the individul scenes and then to step back to appreciate the Bigger Picture and how all those scenes and story pieces interact to really understand the narrative. So the second viewing helped clear up some lingering feelings I had about it and helped solidify my original impressions or made me change a few of them.

 

[Aragorn]

It’s been a difficult road to travel to commit to this opinion; after all, there’s been so much fun and anticipation over the last two years on this board--SHOUTING SPOCK, Blue Warp Nacelles, the sombreros, Badass Robau and, of course, the Generic Parody Thread which was the reason I registered after lurking for years. And I’ve really had a wonderful time looking forward to the premier with everyone on this forum. But I’ll just say it.

So would you say that it's been a long road getting from there to here?

 

[freak]

Well, I finally saw the movie this evening and I have to agree with some of the posters on here. I thought that the movie was awesome and thrilling..there was a lot more action and battle sequences than any other trek movie so far..and the story was fast paced.
It indeed was a thrilling ride, but there were some things that I didn't understand and that was the Spock/Uhura relationship thing. I was also upset that they got rid of Vulcan as well. Also I found the guy who played Sarek didn't do the guy any justice.
But other than that, I thought the storyline was spot on..I've heard that they're gonna make a couple of more movies in relation to this one. So who knows?

But I can understand why some people were disappointed in it though.

 

[Gepard]

So would you say that it's been a long road getting from there to here?

Yes. Yes I would. But I can feel change in the wind right now.

 

[sidious618]

I was kind of conflicted after seeing it but the more time that went by the more and more I liked it. I guess I had the opposite reaction that you did. That said, I understand completely your points and we're you're coming from.

 

[sidious618]

I just read my last post and I'm ready to hand in my internet card for respecting someone else's opinion. I fail.

 

[Gepard]

I just read my last post and I'm ready to hand in my internet card for respecting someone else's opinion. I fail.

That's okay. *pats sidious618 on the back, then shoves him down a flight of stairs*

 

[pookha]

[Sure there would have still been "outraged fans" but they would have been much fewer in number and probably would have consisted mostly of the truly “loony fringe”. .

just how many out raged fans do you believe there are??

i and several of the people i know have spent money on trek including buying novels and still plan to do so because we are old line fans happy with the film.

i am fine with people saying why they dont like it ;just get puzzled when they start into well the people who like this film must not be old school trek fans.

 

[RoJoHen]

Part of the problem is, I think, that the film's best scene--the battle of the Kelvin and Kirk's birth/George's death--happens right at the opening. I'd been hearing about how powerful that scene was and figured it could never live up to the hype. Yet it did, and so it set my expectations for the film very, very high, because the writers had just shown what they're capable of if they try. Conversely, the finale lacked just about everything that made the opening work. I wasn't invested in Nero as an antagonist, so I didn't care about him or the destruction of the Narada, the conflict between Kirk and Spock was dropped so there was no tension there, and as I already mentioned, the tone stayed inappropriately jocular throughout so it was hard to feel like these were real people really fighting a fight that mattered. And by that time, the seams in the story's logic had started to show, straining the goodwill it had built by that point.

That's a very good point, and I agree that the Kelvin scenes were the best of the movie. But my enjoyment of the new characters built onto that beginning rather than dissipating it.

Agreed, the Kelvin scenes are really good and had me really stoked. Which is why I think I ended up feeling let down. The rest of the movie never lived up to the gravity and weight of that opening scene. Honestly, I probably would have ended up happier with a movie centered around the Kelvin than what we got, but that would have been much MUCH harder (probably impossible) to market.

I think a lot of us (even those who really liked this movie) agree that they would have rather seen a Kelvin movie because of that scene. It was almost too good.