A lover defends Voyager
- Thread starter Vykan12
- Start date
Well, one could argue that the fact that the name of the ship remains the same from week to week also constitutes good continuity.
Well said.
I feel like vykan12 didn't understand what most meant when they complained about continuity. Obviously it's not something important to everyone.From another subthread that I'm too lazy to quote. I loved Guinan's character and don't remember any huge disconnect in her backstory.
Well, I guess I should have kept that opinion to myself about that cause now it's come back to bite me in the ass. Sorry if I offended anyone but I get a little mortified when I see two women kissing..but that's just me. I guess I should have watched what I said..sorry to all of you fans out there if I ruffled any feathers.
Exodus: thanks for the stick up man.
I actually started watching DS9 because of the same kiss, and I swear that it was a advertised as February sweeps thing or something to increase ratings. I remember seeing the preview for it and I was thinking, "I have to see that". I suspect that you're not the average Star Trek viewer that they were targeting, that would be excited by this. I probably wasn't either. I was excited about a gay kiss on Trek, not a "hot lesbian kiss" that would fulfill some porn sourced fantasy.
However, I felt let down. It wasn't really a lesbian kiss, but rather two worms kissing. I don't think that counts as being the first gay kiss on Trek. However, I would say that it was quite exciting and quite touching storytelling none the less.
In case you didn't notice, there was much violence and killing before this episode, which I hope would have disturbed you and caused strong emotion. However, what you were most troubled by, was alien intimacy played by two women?
I personally find a story that pushes some buttons and makes me question why I was disturbed as something good.
Just to highlight how your apology sounds to many, by doing the ol' word replace with a recognized bigotry and an often overlooked one:
"Sorry if I offended anyone but I get a little mortified when I see a black man and a white woman kissing..but that's just me."
"Sorry if I offended anyone but I get a little mortified when I see two overweight people kissing..but that's just me."
One certainly can't control what one feels, but perhaps it should be used as an experience to question why.
"Sorry if I offended anyone but I get a little mortified when I see a turtle and a tortoise kissing... but that's just me."
Black bi-sexual Star Trek fan here and as I said, gay people have the same reaction to straight people kissing. So if you're going to be offended by one then you can't deny the other.
I will say this, while people have sat here and called her ridiculous & homophobic, she hasn't said one bad thing in return about any of you.
No. But I can tell you, that as a gay Star Trek fan, when you hear that someone gave up watching an amazing series because they were 'creeped out' by a mild display of affection between two women, that it is just as offensive as if she had said she'd given DS9 a chance but then saw that the commander was black and was creeped out and stopped watching it as a result. It's not the same bigotry, but that doesn't make it any less hurtful or insulting. Bigotry is ridiculous. And homophobia should be called out whenever it rears it's ugly head. I'm not saying that this person deserves to be called names or hunted down with pitchforks; I just think that when someone makes such a statement that it should be acknowledged for what it is.
Carry on.
Bigorty exists on both sides.
However, lets not play the homophobia card as call it for what it is, "preferance". Plenty of straight people prefer not to see pubilc displays of from those of their on sex. This is no different. Freak "prefers" not to see homosexual acts of affection.
If we're going to teach tolerance then maybe we should learn what the word means first. Allot of people are under the impression it mean acceptance.
These conversations are always so taxing. They're exhausting really. I just want to talk about Star Trek. lol
What gay people? I've never met a gay person who was 'creeped out' by seeing straight people kiss. Ever. And it certainly doesn't bother me. My bi-sexual native american roomie agrees. I don't doubt that there are people 'creeped out' by straight people kissing, but I think they're probably the exception and not the rule.
Um...no. Her comments were text book homophobia. She says that she 'loved' the series until she saw 2 women kissing. She was 'creeped out' by the 'lesbian episode'. And then ran away from an entire series that she claimed that she 'loved' because of that fear, in spite of the fact that common sense says that not every episode is going to be about Jadzia & that by episode's end this storyline had ended. If it was merely a preference she could have stopped the episode and moved to the next, but this was something more; this was something irrational.
Tolerance sounds good on paper; tolerance can make the world a better place. But lets not kid ourselves; it's really an ugly word when you think about it. People don't want to be tolerated. Who wants to hear that their parents, families, loved ones tolerate them, while their hetero family members are loved and accepted? Anyone? It's not a compliment. I don't try to teach tolerance. I refused to be tolerated as a gay child. I wanted acceptance and wouldn't settle for less. I lost a lot of so-called-friends. There are relatives who still don't speak to me. But I'm better off without them. And the love I get from the majority that remained is uncompromising.
I won't tolerate bigotry. I'll call it out everytime it's displayed. When someone says something homophobic, I'll oppose that voice as long as I have the strength to do so. Because there are people that might take those misguided words to heart who can't or won't speak up for themselves. Do you know what the suicide rate is for LGBT teens? My 13 yo nephew is gay. And he comes to me crying: "Why would anyone hate me for what I am?" and it breaks my heart. And when someone says that they loved a tv program, but gave it up after seeing one lesbian kiss on that program, that can send a dangerous message to many LGBT community members who are at a difficult crossroads. It can be deadly. Words can kill. But words can save lives too. And if what I say on these occasions changes one person's mind then it's worth all the trouble it takes me to respond to messages that upset me so much that my hands shake while I type them. I don't take any pleasure in writing these responses; I'd ignore them if I could, but I can't. The stakes are just too high.
What gay people? I've never met a gay person who was 'creeped out' by seeing straight people kiss. Ever. And it certainly doesn't bother me. My bi-sexual native american roomie agrees. I don't doubt that there are people 'creeped out' by straight people kissing, but I think they're probably the exception and not the rule.
Um...no. Her comments were text book homophobia. She says that she 'loved' the series until she saw 2 women kissing. She was 'creeped out' by the 'lesbian episode'. And then ran away from an entire series that she claimed that she 'loved' because of that fear, in spite of the fact that common sense says that not every episode is going to be about Jadzia & that by episode's end this storyline had ended. If it was merely a preference she could have stopped the episode and moved to the next, but this was something more; this was something irrational.
Tolerance sounds good on paper; tolerance can make the world a better place. But lets not kid ourselves; it's really an ugly word when you think about it. People don't want to be tolerated. Who wants to hear that their parents, families, loved ones tolerate them, while their hetero family members are loved and accepted? Anyone? It's not a compliment. I don't try to teach tolerance. I refused to be tolerated as a gay child. I wanted acceptance and wouldn't settle for less. I lost a lot of so-called-friends. There are relatives who still don't speak to me. But I'm better off without them. And the love I get from the majority that remained is uncompromising.
I won't tolerate bigotry. I'll call it out everytime it's displayed. When someone says something homophobic, I'll oppose that voice as long as I have the strength to do so. Because there are people that might take those misguided words to heart who can't or won't speak up for themselves. Do you know what the suicide rate is for LGBT teens? My 13 yo nephew is gay. And he comes to me crying: "Why would anyone hate me for what I am?" and it breaks my heart. And when someone says that they loved a tv program, but gave it up after seeing one lesbian kiss on that program, that can send a dangerous message to many LGBT community members who are at a difficult crossroads. It can be deadly. Words can kill. But words can save lives too. And if what I say on these occasions changes one person's mind then it's worth all the trouble it takes me to respond to messages that upset me so much that my hands shake while I type them. I don't take any pleasure in writing these responses; I'd ignore them if I could, but I can't. The stakes are just too high.
Yep and all you've done here by calling it out is take the post further & further off topic due to one comment by one person(who apologized for it) that probably would have gone un-noticed. So because the limited number of people you know don't, it must be universal? That's an incredible law of adverages that straigth people can be listed as homophibic but not one single gay person according to you is heterophobic. I guess I know a much more deversified bunch of people.
Sorry you can't accept being tolerated but that's the way the world works. Bigotry was hear long before you & it wil be here long after. That's the price you pay for freedom. It even exists within the characters of the show you watch.
There is bigotry against Ferengi
There is bigotrty against Cardassians
There is bigorty against Klingons
Sisko even has bigorty against entering Vic's due to the era it takes place. So while you're stomping it out, you're watching a series where that asspect of human nature still exist and is allowed to exist because the Federation doesn't teach acceptance, it teaches tolerance.
If they wanted acceptance, Dax could still be with her female lover.
Are we done and can we get back to the main topic now?
Sorry you can't accept being tolerated but that's the way the world works. Bigotry was hear long before you & it wil be here long after. That's the price you pay for freedom. It even exists within the characters of the show you watch.
There is bigotry against Ferengi
There is bigotrty against Cardassians
There is bigorty against Klingons
Sisko even has bigorty against entering Vic's due to the era it takes place. So while you're stomping it out, you're watching a series where that asspect of human nature still exist and is allowed to exist because the Federation doesn't teach acceptance, it teaches tolerance.
If they wanted acceptance, Dax could still be with her female lover.
Are we done and can we get back to the main topic now?
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I just want to make something perfectly clear on here. I am not homophobic!! Just because I made a comment like that doesn't necessarily mean I'm homophobic. I'm just uncomfortable around things like that. It's not a crime!!! Anyway, you guys don't know me therefore have no right to judge me based on a comment that I made. I apologized for the error but don't think you guys ever saw it or even cared to comment back. As exodus said, I have not said anything terrible about you guys..so why do you have to bitch about my comment that was said like two or three days ago? I'm really sorry for stepping on peoples' toes here..I'm not that type of person. After I made that comment, I realized that it came out wrong and therefore, apologized for it..but then was mocked by it by other posters. I find that rude and inconsiderate. Anyway, I'm off my soap box for now about it..let's move on shall we? I thought we were talking about Trek, not about me making an error..I realize that that is a really sensitive topic and therefore I shouldn't have said it. So again, I apologize. Ok..I thought we were talking about Trek before hand anyway??
Ok..I thought we were talking about Trek before hand anyway??
This post is long (I tend to ramble on) and can be ignored by anyone who does not wish to read it; I won't be offended. I just want my experience to be documented, as it seems to be extremely misunderstood by those commenting on it. Those not interested in this debate can move along, and I don't blame you at all. lol 
If someone said that they loved a show but stopped watching it when they introduced a black character because it 'creeped them out' and they were 'mortified' to see black characters represented; that they were just uncomfortable around things like that...they're statements would be called bigoted. If they then claimed that they were not racest just because they made racest comments that could be true. It's possible this hypothetical person was just pretending to be a racest, or that they got horribly confused when typing their comment and ended up saying the exact opposite of what they meant to say; mistakes do happen. And it's not like being a racist is a crime(!!!). Unfortunately for them, anyone who read that person's comments would have every right to judge them on what they wrote, because as you say, they wouldn't know the person in question and could only go by what the person had written originally and then said again in their 'apology' and then stated a final time when trying to defend themselves; they'd have to trust that the person knew what they were typing; that they believed it to be true even though such an ugly statement seems unthinkably rude and callous, and the antithesis of what Star Trek is about. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Through and through.
If you mean this:
Then yes, I did see your attempt at an apology, in which you again said something completely offensive while saying that said opinion was not meant to ruffle anyone's feathers; that seeing people different than you be affectionate was a mortifying experience; apparently so overwhelmingly mortifying that it prevented you from enjoying a program that had 174 other episodes that didn't feature such representation. Even though I found this 'apology' to be just as offensive as your opening statement I decided to take it on good faith that you were trying to make up for your hurtful words and chose to not reply out of respect for that poorly worded effort. After all; I'd already said what I meant to say in reply to your first salvo, and considered the matter closed at this point. I was ready to get back to less controversial Trek commentary.
I was apparently not the only one that found the 'apology' offensive as it was commented on by someone else, but I chose to stay out of it. I'd said all I needed to say. I was done.
Case closed I thought.
But then Exodus replied to something that I had written. And he'd taken things a step further and I felt I couldn't ignore his comments so I replied - which if you scroll up is 2 or 3 messages above this one.
Finished. I thought.
Then Exodus & Freak replied again. I was tempted to leave it be, but lies must be countered.
I wasn't responding to Freak. I was responding to you. You escalated the conversation. Not me. I just responded to what you wrote.
Could you possibly pay attention to what I said this time:
For the record, gay people can be heterophobic, I just don't think it's that common. And sadly, gay people can also be homophobic. Obviously.
Jadzia's lover's gender had nothing to do with it. LGBT relationships are accepted in Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry himself wrote the novel of Star Trek: The Motion Picture in which Kirk comments on it. LGBT relationships have been referenced, implied, & or analogised on "Enterprise", "The Next Generation", "DS9" & "Voyager". There are LGBT characters in the books, comics and video games. This particular prejudice was not intended to be part of the Star Trek universe. And while the characters in Star Trek are not perfect, when a predjudice is introduced in the shows it is usually presented as something to be overcome; not something to be celebrated; characters from each species that you've named have been developed to be seen as more than just stereotypes.
You seem to be implying (and I could be wrong because it's a bit confusing and I've been awake for far too long) that I shouldn't be finding enjoyment in a tv series that doesn't completely gel with my stance on acceptance? That's just the thing. I accept Star Trek for what it is. Star Trek, for all it's virtues is just a tv series, with flaws. I wouldn't recommend anyone only accept what is taught in a tv program for themselves or for others...but that's just me.
Actually, you did say something terribly hurtful, but I don't think you intended to. I'm not even sure you understand what you've said here and how it affects people, but I'm willing to overlook it as long as such comments don't return. And I was no more bitching about your comments than you were about mine. Before this response I've only commented on your first entry, which I did as soon as I saw it. I'm not always able to log on every day, so sometimes my commentary on certain entries doesn't arrive until several days after the fact, though you're the first person to ever complain about such a delay.
As was stated by Plague, your apology (as whole hearted as I believe you intended it to be) itself came off as 'rude and inconsiderate'. You tried to make the situation better by restating that seeing people that aren't like you express their love in a common manner was 'mortifying'. Imagine if someone said they found you mortifying & creepy; that you made them feel uncomfortable; and because they saw you on a tv show they loved they were no longer going to watch it. That's what you seemed to be saying about a minority group and that's why people were upset by the comment.
Apology Accepted. Water under the bridge. Let's talk Trek.
I'm done if you're done. Though if you continue to respond to what I've written in a manner that I feel needs commenting on, I will most likely continue to do so. But I honestly don't want to. lol Truce?
Sorry again for anyone who felt the need to read the entire post. I'm sleepy...and often disorganized. There are probably a whole host of errors here. lol. I so need to go to bed.
I will say this, while people have sat here and called her ridiculous & homophobic, she hasn't said one bad thing in return about any of you.
No. But I can tell you, that as a gay Star Trek fan, when you hear that someone gave up watching an amazing series because they were 'creeped out' by a mild display of affection between two women, that it is just as offensive as if she had said she'd given DS9 a chance but then saw that the commander was black and was creeped out and stopped watching it as a result. It's not the same bigotry, but that doesn't make it any less hurtful or insulting. Bigotry is ridiculous. And homophobia should be called out whenever it rears it's ugly head. I'm not saying that this person deserves to be called names or hunted down with pitchforks; I just think that when someone makes such a statement that it should be acknowledged for what it is.
Carry on.
If someone said that they loved a show but stopped watching it when they introduced a black character because it 'creeped them out' and they were 'mortified' to see black characters represented; that they were just uncomfortable around things like that...they're statements would be called bigoted. If they then claimed that they were not racest just because they made racest comments that could be true. It's possible this hypothetical person was just pretending to be a racest, or that they got horribly confused when typing their comment and ended up saying the exact opposite of what they meant to say; mistakes do happen. And it's not like being a racist is a crime(!!!). Unfortunately for them, anyone who read that person's comments would have every right to judge them on what they wrote, because as you say, they wouldn't know the person in question and could only go by what the person had written originally and then said again in their 'apology' and then stated a final time when trying to defend themselves; they'd have to trust that the person knew what they were typing; that they believed it to be true even though such an ugly statement seems unthinkably rude and callous, and the antithesis of what Star Trek is about. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Through and through.
If you mean this:
Well, I guess I should have kept that opinion to myself about that cause now it's come back to bite me in the ass. Sorry if I offended anyone but I get a little mortified when I see two women kissing..but that's just me. I guess I should have watched what I said..sorry to all of you fans out there if I ruffled any feathers.
Exodus: thanks for the stick up man.
Then yes, I did see your attempt at an apology, in which you again said something completely offensive while saying that said opinion was not meant to ruffle anyone's feathers; that seeing people different than you be affectionate was a mortifying experience; apparently so overwhelmingly mortifying that it prevented you from enjoying a program that had 174 other episodes that didn't feature such representation. Even though I found this 'apology' to be just as offensive as your opening statement I decided to take it on good faith that you were trying to make up for your hurtful words and chose to not reply out of respect for that poorly worded effort. After all; I'd already said what I meant to say in reply to your first salvo, and considered the matter closed at this point. I was ready to get back to less controversial Trek commentary.
I was apparently not the only one that found the 'apology' offensive as it was commented on by someone else, but I chose to stay out of it. I'd said all I needed to say. I was done.
Case closed I thought.
But then Exodus replied to something that I had written. And he'd taken things a step further and I felt I couldn't ignore his comments so I replied - which if you scroll up is 2 or 3 messages above this one.
Finished. I thought.
Then Exodus & Freak replied again. I was tempted to leave it be, but lies must be countered.
I wasn't responding to Freak. I was responding to you. You escalated the conversation. Not me. I just responded to what you wrote.
Could you possibly pay attention to what I said this time:
For the record, gay people can be heterophobic, I just don't think it's that common. And sadly, gay people can also be homophobic. Obviously.
Jadzia's lover's gender had nothing to do with it. LGBT relationships are accepted in Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry himself wrote the novel of Star Trek: The Motion Picture in which Kirk comments on it. LGBT relationships have been referenced, implied, & or analogised on "Enterprise", "The Next Generation", "DS9" & "Voyager". There are LGBT characters in the books, comics and video games. This particular prejudice was not intended to be part of the Star Trek universe. And while the characters in Star Trek are not perfect, when a predjudice is introduced in the shows it is usually presented as something to be overcome; not something to be celebrated; characters from each species that you've named have been developed to be seen as more than just stereotypes.
You seem to be implying (and I could be wrong because it's a bit confusing and I've been awake for far too long) that I shouldn't be finding enjoyment in a tv series that doesn't completely gel with my stance on acceptance? That's just the thing. I accept Star Trek for what it is. Star Trek, for all it's virtues is just a tv series, with flaws. I wouldn't recommend anyone only accept what is taught in a tv program for themselves or for others...but that's just me.
Actually, you did say something terribly hurtful, but I don't think you intended to. I'm not even sure you understand what you've said here and how it affects people, but I'm willing to overlook it as long as such comments don't return. And I was no more bitching about your comments than you were about mine. Before this response I've only commented on your first entry, which I did as soon as I saw it. I'm not always able to log on every day, so sometimes my commentary on certain entries doesn't arrive until several days after the fact, though you're the first person to ever complain about such a delay.
As was stated by Plague, your apology (as whole hearted as I believe you intended it to be) itself came off as 'rude and inconsiderate'. You tried to make the situation better by restating that seeing people that aren't like you express their love in a common manner was 'mortifying'. Imagine if someone said they found you mortifying & creepy; that you made them feel uncomfortable; and because they saw you on a tv show they loved they were no longer going to watch it. That's what you seemed to be saying about a minority group and that's why people were upset by the comment.
Anyway, I'm off my soap box for now about it..let's move on shall we? I thought we were talking about Trek, not about me making an error..I realize that that is a really sensitive topic and therefore I shouldn't have said it. So again, I apologize.
Apology Accepted.
Water under the bridge. Let's talk Trek.I'm done if you're done. Though if you continue to respond to what I've written in a manner that I feel needs commenting on, I will most likely continue to do so. But I honestly don't want to. lol Truce?
Sorry again for anyone who felt the need to read the entire post. I'm sleepy...and often disorganized. There are probably a whole host of errors here. lol. I so need to go to bed.
Something I enjoyed about Voyager. The production design. It got better and better as the show went on. The show ALWAYS looked amazing!
To neogothboy others offended by my comment earlier: I now understand why people were so offended by my apology. I made an apology, sort of, but then was contradicting myself(I do that alot). But I never thought that posters here could be so serious and sensitive about this subject matter . Hopefully I didn't scare anybody away. And no, my comment was not intended to be offensive in ANY WAY. But my one question to you is this: If it was so offensive, why wasn't there a MOD to point that out to me??I'm an easy person to get along with, most of the time; but I don't appreciate being mocked or bullied(cause I was throughout my whole entire middle school years)or anything else of that nature and was bothered that no one said: oh I apologize for calling you a "bigot". As I said before, I'm not that type of person. Also I don't think you're giving exodus any credit here. He defended me, which is not something I thought anyone would do as I am always trying to defend myself. Anyway, water under the bridge. Let's talk Trek!!!
I defended you because I've taken the time to get to know you very well. Due to that I also know better than to judge your content of character based on one comment or opinion. Everybody is more than the person they appear to be online and most have more to offer than their opinions based on sci-fi TV programing.To neogothboy others offended by my comment earlier: I now understand why people were so offended by my apology. I made an apology, sort of, but then was contradicting myself(I do that alot). But I never thought that posters here could be so serious and sensitive about this subject matter . Hopefully I didn't scare anybody away. And no, my comment was not intended to be offensive in ANY WAY. But my one question to you is this: If it was so offensive, why wasn't there a MOD to point that out to me??I'm an easy person to get along with, most of the time; but I don't appreciate being mocked or bullied(cause I was throughout my whole entire middle school years)or anything else of that nature and was bothered that no one said: oh I apologize for calling you a "bigot". As I said before, I'm not that type of person. Also I don't think you're giving exodus any credit here. He defended me, which is not something I thought anyone would do as I am always trying to defend myself. Anyway, water under the bridge. Let's talk Trek!!!
Thanks Freak but I don't require credit from anybody else. As long as those I call friends & lovers approve of what I do, nobody else matters.
Ok. That's fine..now that that is settled..on with the Voyager talking again!
There was one season of Voyager that kept me on the edge of my seat..and that was year two going into year three.(Basics Part I and II) I kept thinking: oh dear lord, the Kazons are taking over the ship and the crew is stranded on a barron sandheap! And then I kept thinking of whether or not Chakotay was the father of Seska's child. Talk about a soap opera!
But that moment springs to mind for myself.
There was one season of Voyager that kept me on the edge of my seat..and that was year two going into year three.(Basics Part I and II) I kept thinking: oh dear lord, the Kazons are taking over the ship and the crew is stranded on a barron sandheap! And then I kept thinking of whether or not Chakotay was the father of Seska's child. Talk about a soap opera!
But that moment springs to mind for myself.
Something I enjoyed about Voyager. The production design. It got better and better as the show went on. The show ALWAYS looked amazing!
Very true.
Although I think that the ship was always too brightly lit, and there was never enough grime and disrepair for a ship stranded in the delta quadrant.
Haha 'Efficient' is the word I think one of the books describes it as, doesn't one early book say that the briefing room is deliberately grey so decisions are swift and efficient? 'Escape' possibly ... can anyone confirm?
If I was stuck on it for seven years I'd want to redecorate personally not the work areas but the mess hall, it doesn't need such efficiency! Surely some of the more arty crew members on finding themselves stranded would say 'whoooo-hoooo an amazing grey blank canvass'?
I prefer Voyager's bland look to the Enterprise D, I was watching last night and Picard's ready room has this awful 1970's beige panelling to cover the bulkheads ... bluurrrghhhh.
If I was stuck on it for seven years I'd want to redecorate personally
not the work areas but the mess hall, it doesn't need such efficiency! Surely some of the more arty crew members on finding themselves stranded would say 'whoooo-hoooo an amazing grey blank canvass'? I prefer Voyager's bland look to the Enterprise D, I was watching last night and Picard's ready room has this awful 1970's beige panelling to cover the bulkheads ... bluurrrghhhh.
I've seen this opinion a lot around here, and I don't happen to agree with it. You can have used, but you can also have pride in your surroundings. Most military establishments that I know about put a premium on "cleanliness". Clutter, dirt, and grime are frowned upon, hence regular inspections. I don't think Starfleet would have reacted any differently no matter where in the galaxy a ship was. Couple that with a need for raw materials and you get "if you don't use it, recycle it."
At the risk of being accused of being sexist I'll add this, Voyager was ran by two women and what's to say that these two women didn't tolerate grunge and grime any more that some if not most of your mothers do.
If you move it, put it back. If you make a mess, clean it up. If you break it, admit it. If you can't fix it, call someone who can. If you borrow it, return it. If you value it, take care of it.
Voyager was their home and who wants to live in a grungy mess.
Brit
I was kinda fond of Seven's cargo bay.
All the alcoves did add a little character to the ship.
The big missed oppertunity was seeing the crew customize their quarters. If it was going to be home, each persons quarters should have been more "homey". They tried a little with Paris/Torres and the TV.
That's one thing I lived about TNG & DS9, when someone like Picard was given a gift. You saw it in this quarters or ready room from that ep. on.
Everything Voyager collected along the way, you never saw again after that ep.
What happened to the Prehensile Plant?
Brit, to answer your question: Tom Paris.
He doesn't strike me as a neat freak, no matter how many women get on his case about it.
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