Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE)

[melancholymecha]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

http://heroesspoilers-odi.blogspot.com/2009/04/pasdar-and-grunberg-discuss-future-of.html

well I dunno, it seems the writers/actors themselves are gonna treat NuNathan like its just the old one, uploaded into Sylar's body. Um, hello its not...I mean I dunno...maybe in the Heroes-verse, memories=soul? Nathan's not a computer program. Nathan and Sylar struggling over control of one body? that's ridiculous, wouldnt it just really be Sylar alone fighting against the influence of a bunch of memories? It kinda reminds me of the Homunculi from Fullmetal Alchemist...


I was thinking, if they decide not to bring a pseudo-supernatural element into this, like I described earlier, I think maybe I wouldnt mind this supposed Nathan copy becoming its own separate identity from Sylar, & thats where the struggle comes from: Sylar vs copy Nathan fighting over the body. Then either remove Sylar completely from his body or put the Nathan copy into another body(maybe his own if its being stored frozen somewhere.)

I think I could live with that, b/c... I think my real problem with this is that I just hate Sylar, I hate that everything has to revolve around him, and that Sylar is needed for Nathan to continue to exist.

So yeah Sylar's now at the bottom of my fave character list....he was at the top in season one under the Petrelli Bros, kinda houvered in the middle for season 2(I was mostly indifferent to him) & now he shares the bottom with uselss boring Mo & Hiro. Down with Sylar!


as for Pasdar I think he would rock in the new V series as an alien baddy...
he'd also would have made a great Harvey Dent if they had ever tried a Bruce Wayne before Batman tv series in the past, but I think he's too old now.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Here's another ridiculous point of the episode. Peter and Nathan, who both ONLY have the power of flight, decide they can take down Sylar, who has dozens of powers including telekinesis, energy projection, etc, etc.

Hey, they gotta use the tools they have to work with. I love the idea of the heroes being underpowered and having to use superior tactics and smarts to win (which they did, at severe cost).

I didn't immediately realize that the fight was merely a feint, to fool Sylar into thinking the Petrelli boys' strategy was frontal assault and therefore when Peter got his one power from Sylar, it would be an offensive one, such as TK.

They knew that Sylar would know Peter got a power, and would be on guard for that. But the real attack was the ambush later. It would do no good to attack Sylar while he's prepared; they had to get him to drop his guard. While he was concentrating on shapeshifting is the perfect moment to attack.

well I dunno, it seems the writers/actors themselves are gonna treat NuNathan like its just the old one, uploaded into Sylar's body. Um, hello its not...I mean I dunno...maybe in the Heroes-verse, memories=soul?

I hope they at least leave the question open; it's one of those unanswerable metaphysical conundrums. Heroes is sci fi without much religious component, so it makes sense if they don't make a whole lot of the soul thing. But are we all just DNA + memories? If so, then Sylar is dead and Nathan is truly alive. I don't think anyone has a definitive answer to that.

 

[Aragorn]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

That interview makes no sense. Nathan didn't download like a Cylon into Sylar. Nathan is D-E-A-D dead. Sylar just happens to have a lot of Nathan's memories via history/touch power that he now things are his own.

This is like in The Sixth Day where the bad guys weren't too worried about dying because they'd just be cloned. Well, even though new versions of them are walking around, the previous them are STILL DEAD!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

I thought it was a very good finale. It's going to be very controversial because a fan favorite character was killed.

What happened to all the folks who used to bitch that Heroes is gutless because they're too chicken to kill a fan favorite and it's boring because we know who can't die, and if they die, it's all a cop-out and they bring them back with some silly trick like Claire's magic blood? Well, this is why they didn't do that before now. People say they want risky shows that will shake things up and surprise us - till they get that.

Hey at least the Heroes thread is lively again! They were getting pretty damn dull for a while there, petering out after a couple days.

The bottom line here is that Heroes ratings, while stable lately, are not healthy enough that they can be complacent. And the show won't be back till Sept or possibly Jan. It would be very easy for people to simply forget about the show. Something HUGE had to be done that would make people interested in finding out how it all turns out. Fuller and Kring knew they had to kick the audience in the head like a mule.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

What happened to all the folks who used to bitch that Heroes is gutless because they're too chicken to kill a fan favorite and it's boring because we know who can't die, and if they die, it's all a cop-out and they bring them back with some silly trick like Claire's magic blood?

We're all pissed off they killed Nathan instead of Clare.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

I didn't immediately realize that the fight was merely a feint, to fool Sylar into thinking the Petrelli boys' strategy was frontal assault and therefore when Peter got his one power from Sylar, it would be an offensive one, such as TK. They knew that Sylar would know Peter got a power, and would be on guard for that.

So they intentionally went into the fight to lose? How would they know Sylar wouldn't just kill them then and there? Also, I could be wrong on this, but did Sylar ever learn about Peter's new one-power-only rule? Also, how could Peter have known that he would have been able to pick and choose which of Sylar's dozens of powers he could steal, since he's never been in a situation like that before. Or did he just get all of them? But shouldn't that have made him kill-crazy like in Season Three? Or did that take awhile to surface back then, I forget.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Until they find out he's Sylar, then it's done. There's nothing inside Sylar to battle for possession of his body or identity. There is no Nathan, only a false mask. An inanimate object. It can't fight for anything. There's not going to be a battle. There's not going to be Nathan 2.0. There's nothing left to be Nathan 2.0. "Nathan" is a post hypnotic suggestion left by Matt. The person in Sylar's head doesn't exist. Once Sylar remembers, he's Sylar again 100 percent.

Whether or not there is a separate being who calls himself Nathan who really is someone other than Sylar is a metaphysical question that has no answer. To answer it, you'd have to know whether there is anything to people besides DNA and memories - ie, a soul. Until you can prove the existence of the soul, it's an open question whether Nathan could still exist in some form.

I'm interested in this notion and willing to let the writers and actors convince me of their point of view on the subject, whatever it may be.

So they intentionally went into the fight to lose?

No, but they knew it was their only shot. It was a desperation move but very brave and in character for the Petrelli boys. Nathan's job was to distract Sylar long enough for Peter to touch him.

After that, Nathan would have kept Sylar busy long enough for Peter to find out where the POTUS was (how they got him to cooperate with the switch, or got him alone so that Peter could knock him out and replace him, I dunno - could Nathan have arranged it in advance?) and get into position. Nathan would have broken off the fight and tried to flee; Sylar would hopefully ignore Nathan and go back to his original plan, figuring both the Petrellis had scrammed, realizing they are outgunned.

Nathan dying wasn't part of the plan but both of them had to have known how dangerous the plan was - that was the point of the "I love you" dialogue in the corridor.

And given that Nathan died a hero, I'd say he had his redemption plotline (that and the fact that he outed himself by calling Sylar "one of us" right before the fight).

did Sylar ever learn about Peter's new one-power-only rule?

Not sure about the logic of that - maybe Danko knew?

Also, how could Peter have known that he would have been able to pick and choose which of Sylar's dozens of powers he could steal, since he's never been in a situation like that before.

Peter knew he could stop himself from absorbing powers or else he couldn't have rescued Matt by flying him to safety that one time. And if he got all Sylar's powers, so much the better - he doesn't have to use them after all. He could still pretend he had only the shapeshifting power.

So really the Petrellis had to know that Sylar knew about the one power rule. Or maybe even that isn't needed - Sylar would fight with them, they scram, Sylar figures they're outclassed and goes on with his plan. But Peter's comment to Sylar indicates that he knew that Sylar knew, so it had to have happened sometime...?

The ultimate purpose of the feint was to make Sylar overconfident.

But shouldn't that have made him kill-crazy like in Season Three? Or did that take awhile to surface back then, I forget.

He only got the shapeshifting power this time, so he's in the clear.

What happened to all the folks who used to bitch that Heroes is gutless because they're too chicken to kill a fan favorite and it's boring because we know who can't die, and if they die, it's all a cop-out and they bring them back with some silly trick like Claire's magic blood?

We're all pissed off they killed Nathan instead of Clare.

Claire is unkillable due to the Drooling Fanboy Factor.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

What happened to all the folks who used to bitch that Heroes is gutless because they're too chicken to kill a fan favorite

Yes they killed the character but they are having their cake and eating it too. He is still essentially around. Pasdar is still around.

and it's boring because we know who can't die, and if they die, it's all a cop-out and they bring them back with some silly trick like Claire's magic blood?

Or they bring them back as a triplet or they resurrect them by making them think they are someone else.

Well, this is why they didn't do that before now. People say they want risky shows that will shake things up and surprise us - till they get that.

I want risky, shocking and deviously clever shake-ups. If they really wanted to leave fans reeling and in a state of utter shock. They would have had the cast take on Sylar in an epic battle and let him off the entire cast leaving us with a roomful of skull carved Hiro, Ando, Peter, Nathan, Noah, Matt and Claire with a hole in the head. Then we could have a clean slate next season with hopefully a more interesting bunch than these characters have sadly become.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

But if you believe in a soul, it's pretty much a deal breaker, Temis. The idea that we're nothing but DNA and memories is pretty bleak. Ultimately, the idea that someone's brother and mother could accept a replacement as their murdered loved one is pretty unpalatable. It's just not doable as a plot development. Not for me.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

^ It's no different than accepting transporters in Star Trek. You get killed and a duplicate of you is made on the other end each and every time you use one. No one seems to care or notice because the copy is just that good.

In the end, your "soul" really only matters to you. For anyone interacting with a person, the original or the transporter/Sylar clone is one in the same.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Sorry for all my random replying. Too much to deal with here!

The show does need guts. It needs to be original, fresh and willing to up the stakes, be unpredictable and do mindblowing things. But none of what I saw last night really demonstrated any of those things. The show still is having serious lapses in logic, a problem for me feeling much of anything for these characters outside of Angela and a problem simply measuring up to my standards when it comes to entertainment.

So what would have been a gutsy, original, fresh plot twist instead?

I see a lot of your enthusiasm is coming from what you think they might do creatively next season with this storyline but judging from the show's track record of setting up potentially interesting story directions and then completely botching them I have very little faith. I expect it will be more of the same. Although you might be proven right.

That's certainly happened to me before - I guess they could frak up this setup like they did before, but it's better than no setup at all. I have no real idea what else they could have done to really lock in my interest for next season. I was going to watch anyway, but now I'm really interested in how this turns out. Before it was more like, eh, let's see what they come up with...

Ultimately, the idea that someone's brother and mother could accept a replacement as their murdered loved one is pretty unpalatable.

Just because a character is doing something unpalatable doesn't mean the story isn't worthwhile - all I ask is that it be in character and for someone like Angela, who cannot face emotional pain and uses deceit to hide from it, her bizarre acceptance of Sylar as Nathan is perfectly in character. It's good, character-based writing. Even if she's wrong from a metaphysical standpoint, it's still the right reaction for her.

What's even creepier is that she won't tell Peter. Because then Peter would try to kill Sylar and Angela is bound to lose one of her sons. She'd rather lie to the guy who is possibly her only surviving son, and treat him like a child, than face reality.

We haven't yet put Peter to the acid test of learning the truth. I'm very interested to see how that plays out. I have some ideas about his likely emotional path, but I'll just let the writers figure that out.

^ It's no different than accepting transporters in Star Trek. You get killed and a duplicate of you is made on the other end each and every time you use one.

GOOD POINT! I've always wondered what is wrong with those Starfleet people and their creepy society where being killed and duplicated is considered no big deal.

Transporters can't transport souls either.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

It's Angela who accepted him back, and she's pretty messed up when it comes to her family and children. Peter would probably flip if he found out.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

It's Angela who accepted him back, and she's pretty messed up when it comes to her family and children. Peter would probably flip if he found out.

Peter will flip at first, and I'll bet in a homicidal way. That's what Angela fears. How things turn out after that initial flip-out, hmm. That should be interesting.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

You're using transporters as an example? Wha-at? How that applies to the existence of a soul I don't understand but we don't have transporters in Heroes.

I wasn't aware transporters morphed murderers into their victims. Folks, it doesn't wash. There's no way to make it wash. I would hope Peter would go ballistic and never accept him, because it will always be Sylar. You can't exchange people one for the other like that. It devalues all concerned.

Seriously, Sylar becomes Nathan? Peter accepting him. It won't work. It just won't work. If you can accept your brother's murderer as your brother, you never loved your brother. That's the bottom line.

 

[melancholymecha]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

I think Nathan went into that fight knowing he would probably not come out of it alive. It was a sacrifice on his part, what he'd have to pay to fix the mess he created.

Its so sad. Its even sadder that then his sacrifice is covered up. Im sure NuNathan had his death erased from his memories but I hope he eventually gets told the truth as well(along with Peter, Claire & everyone else) so they know what the original did and mourn him properly.
I think Im gonna consider NuNathn as a sort of weird 3rd sibling, (er offspring? copy sounds too inorganic)of the original...that will make it slightly easier for me to deal with this...mess. But it will only work if the writers dont decide to have Sylar meld with NuNathan. But the interview I posted above gives me hope.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

*Smacks head* hey I just remembered! Whatever happened to Peter being the one to buy it because Hayden was mad at Milo and wouldn't act in any scenes with him? She stomped her pretty little foot at the producers and said "it's him or ME!"

You people are bad. You had me worried. That stuff was just crap manufactured by the studio to get some free publicity.

You're using transporters as an example? Wha-at? How that applies to the existence of a soul I don't understand but we don't have transporters in Heroes.

Transporters can't transport souls since Starfleet doesn't know what a soul looks like, so how can they program a transporter to grab one? Yet for all these years, audiences have accepted that this is not a problem. Just goes to show that souls aren't necessary elements in sci fi.

Seriously, Sylar becomes Nathan? Peter accepting him. It won't work.

Peter doesn't even know about it yet! Give the writers a chance to write something on the topic first!

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Not me. You'll have to tell me how it works out. I'm done. This show is just too silly. Sylar cannot be Nathan. You can't be the person you murdered. It's just gross. Lazy, lazy storytelling. You want to kill a character off--kill him off. Have the balls to do it. They made a decision to kill a character. They should have removed Pasdar from the canvas. I'd have respected that decision more.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

You're using transporters as an example? Wha-at? How that applies to the existence of a soul I don't understand but we don't have transporters in Heroes.

Sylar is an exact copy of Nathan. DNA and memories. That's all you are after stepping into a transporter and being beamed somewhere; a mass of atoms superglued together and imprinted with your DNA and memories. A copy of the original, just like Sylar is now.

And why do you keep mentioning Peter? Matt and Angela are the only ones who know what happened. Peter was off with Claire at the time unless I'm tragically misremembering the scene, which isn't an impossibility.

I'm not saying I liked what happened: But saying that it's so difficult for people to accept Sylar as Nathan when he is Nathan is silly. Especially if the people involved have no idea what's what. The only one who's iffy there is Angela, but she was pretty much driven batty with grief. As far as anyone else is concerned, they're not talking to Sylar.

Again, just like when you're talking to a transporter clone.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

It's not silly. And there are no transporter clones in Heroes; a transporter from Star Trek isn't an applicable analogy. Sylar isn't an exact copy of Nathan. His knowing about the clock running slow proved that. Sylar is very much alive and will reemerge eventually. They aren't talking to a transporter clone.

You want to kill Nathan, then kill the character. That's all I'm saying. I'd have gotten used to that. Don't make character 2.0. That's lame. No balls. These writers are going to deftly create an existential identity crisis?

Come on. Does anyone buy that? They should have just offed Nathan if that's what they wanted.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

The confusion here is that there are two issues all tangled up here:

Metaphysical - Is there such a thing as a soul? If yes, Sylar/Nathan is not Nathan. If no, Sylar/Nathan is Nathan by any acceptable standard, since minus a soul all that a person is, is DNA and memories. This conundrum is unanswerable because it is impossible to prove the existence of a soul, but individual viewers can answer it for themselves if they do or don't believe in souls.

Emotional - How people react to Sylar/Nathan doesn't depend on metaphysics or logic. It depends on the emotional compulsions of the character. If the idea that "Nathan" used to be Sylar overrides the emotional power of a person who looks and acts just like Nathan, then a person will react one way; someone else will react another way. We've seen Angela's reaction and it's correct for her character. For Peter, I dunno - I could see various emotional arcs emerging for him that would be perfectly in character. I just hope the writers choose the most interesting one.

The emotional issue is influenced by other factors such as: what if Peter can read Sylar/Nathan's mind, and find only Nathan at home? And the potential for Sylar/Nathan to revert to full Sylarhood also influences the reaction, since even if you accept him as Nathan, it will only be a conditional acceptance...unless the rules change about him reverting back so that he can't.