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Countdown/Novels

The fact that Paramount/CBS Studio Licensing has never policed fictional continuity among licensees has been a great annoyance to me over the years. However unrealistic it might be for the editorial staff of Pocket Books or continuation authors to be familiar with both filmed Star Trek and licensed tie-ins, as a consumer of Star Trek product, I believe that all the pieces should fit together. Authors really shouldn't be in a position to pick and choose pieces of the Star Trek licensee universe that appeal to their particular tastes. There really shouldn't be any question of what is canon and what is apocrypha. If something is marked with the Star Trek brand it should fit with everything else that came before it, that includes toys, books, comics, RPGs, and computer and video games, and future authors should be tasked with maintaining continuity with it. I know that the continuation authors will strongly object to my feelings on this matter, but that is how I feel as a Star Trek consumer.
 
That's really not very feasible for any franchise with a TV show and a large number of novels/comics. Star Wars fandom is finding that out in a hurry with The Clone Wars being on the air.

Remember, it's all just made up anyway. If certain bits don't agree, then consider them distortions of the legend or whatever makes you comfortable.
 
^^ I think that is nigh on impossible to do and would cause far more problems than it would actually prevent.

As far as the Books etc stay true to the events of the TV programmes (which I believe is the policy anyway?) I'm happy and to be honest, with over 600 or so hours of filmed Trek anyway, it's an inconsistent mess when trying to straighten things out.
 
The fact that Paramount/CBS Studio Licensing has never policed fictional continuity among licensees has been a great annoyance to me over the years. However unrealistic it might be for the editorial staff of Pocket Books or continuation authors to be familiar with both filmed Star Trek and licensed tie-ins, as a consumer of Star Trek product, I believe that all the pieces should fit together.

Even the old "pieces" that have been blatantly contradicted by later canon? For that matter, there are some assertions in some of the early books and comics that are rather silly, some stories that weren't that good, etc. Being beholden to every bit of it would undermine the credibility of the current fiction.

And I'm disturbed by the idea that tie-in continuity should be "policed." As if we're committing some kind of crime if we exercise creative freedom. It's good to have the option of continuity among different creative works, but if we were forbidden the choice of taking alternate paths, it would be too restrictive. Sometimes, as with Crucible, it's better for a story if it doesn't have to be consistent with earlier works. And there can be value in telling different possible versions of the same event in Trek history. There's more than one version of Kirk's first mission on the Enterprise, more than one version of his last, more than one version his Academy days, etc. And they're all pretty good stories, and it would be a shame if most of them had been forbidden to exist.


Authors really shouldn't be in a position to pick and choose pieces of the Star Trek licensee universe that appeal to their particular tastes. There really shouldn't be any question of what is canon and what is apocrypha.

There is no such question. All print tie-ins are apocrypha. Only onscreen material is canonical. So the question of whether one piece of apocrypha acknowledges another piece of apocrypha has nothing to do with canon.

And for the record, most Trek authors, when given the freedom to choose, have chosen to be consistent with earlier works, to acknowledge the creations of their fellow authors, at least within the same medium and publishing program. That's how the internovel and novel-comic continuity of the late '80s and early '90s came about, and it's how the current novel continuity came about: because the various writers and editors involved wanted to pay homage to one another's work, and so the continuity among tie-ins spontaneously and voluntarily increased over time. The only time we've been "policed" was when Richard Arnold forbade any continuity among the books and comics. So it's rather backward, and frankly rather condescending, to suggest that we need to be forced to acknowledge each other's creations.


If something is marked with the Star Trek brand it should fit with everything else that came before it, that includes toys, books, comics, RPGs, and computer and video games, and future authors should be tasked with maintaining continuity with it.

You're several decades too late for that to be a remotely realistic expectation. "Everything that came before" in Trek licensing doesn't even remotely fit together. How can the Power Records comics with the blonde Uhura and black Sulu possibly fit with the rest of Trek? How can Spock Must Die's finale with the Klingons being frozen in time for all eternity possibly fit with the Klingons' continued presence in all subsequent fiction? There's no conceivable way we could keep our works consistent with everything that's come before. So there's no choice but to pick and choose. And how do you decide what's "real" and what isn't? What seems irreconcilable to one reader or writer may seem reasonable to another. There's no objective standard for defining a "canon" of the non-canonical. That's just the way Star Trek tie-ins have always been. If you want a franchise whose tie-ins are absolutely self-consistent, you need to look elsewhere.
 
It would be possible if the corporate entity that owned Star Trek, Desilu, Paramount, and then CBS Studios, or the showrunners cared and devoted resources to it. But they couldn't care less. So the people involved start saying that my expectations as a consumer of Star Trek are unreasonable. The authors say that we're not going to maintain continuity with other licensees because we don't want too and we don't have too.
 
Regarding what was said a few pages back, I for one would absolutely LOVE to see a series of novels about B4 becoming Data! That would be EPIC and I would buy those books with minimal hesitation!
 
It would be possible if the corporate entity that owned Star Trek, Desilu, Paramount, and then CBS Studios, or the showrunners cared and devoted resources to it. But they couldn't care less.

That's not only wrong, it's rude. It's childish to say that a decision you personally don't agree with is the result of laziness or neglect. Paula Block and John Van Citters at CBS Licensing put great care and dedication into their job. They just don't share your unrealistic and unattainable goals.

The authors say that we're not going to maintain continuity with other licensees because we don't want too and we don't have too.

Obviously you're not listening to a word I'm saying. I just told you that the main reason there is internovel continuity at all is because, as a rule, the authors do want to have it, and choose to have it. So you're insulting the very people who are responsible for giving you what you want in the first place, just because they don't give it to you 100 percent of the time.
 
There is no such question. All print tie-ins are apocrypha. Only onscreen material is canonical. So the question of whether one piece of apocrypha acknowledges another piece of apocrypha has nothing to do with canon.

You're writing about the way things are, while I am writing the way that things should be or should have been when Desilu first sold licenses. Yes, I know that the showrunners have chosen to consider licensee material to be apocryphal and the expectation that most onscreen material should be considered canonical, with a few exceptions depending on the showrunner at the time.

So it's rather backward, and frankly rather condescending, to suggest that we need to be forced to acknowledge each other's creations.

I knew that this would be your position on this matter. But I believe that it should be the price an author must pay when setting his or her stories in a shared universe. If you want total creative freedom, write fiction in your own universe and not in the Star Trek universe. Though I have to say that Pocket Books and the authors should be commended for their fairly recent editorial decision

You're several decades too late for that to be a remotely realistic expectation. "Everything that came before" in Trek licensing doesn't even remotely fit together. How can the Power Records comics with the blonde Uhura and black Sulu possibly fit with the rest of Trek? How can Spock Must Die's finale with the Klingons being frozen in time for all eternity possibly fit with the Klingons' continued presence in all subsequent fiction? There's no conceivable way we could keep our works consistent with everything that's come before. So there's no choice but to pick and choose. And how do you decide what's "real" and what isn't? What seems irreconcilable to one reader or writer may seem reasonable to another. There's no objective standard for defining a "canon" of the non-canonical. That's just the way Star Trek tie-ins have always been. If you want a franchise whose tie-ins are absolutely self-consistent, you need to look elsewhere.

There should have been better quality control of the product created by licensees. Again, you are writing about the way things progressed while I am writing about the way it should have happened. James Blish should have never been given the creative freedom to freeze the Klingons for all time in the novel Spock Must Die since it is pretty obvious that any future filmed or licensed product might want to use the Klingons. But in your opinion, this places too many restrictions on an author.

If the novel series dismantles B4 and the creative decision is made to not resurrect the Data character, then the Star Trek: Countdown comics shouldn't have the freedom to use this as a plot mechanism to resurrect the Data character.
 
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Obviously you're not listening to a word I'm saying. I just told you that the main reason there is internovel continuity at all is because, as a rule, the authors do want to have it, and choose to have it. So you're insulting the very people who are responsible for giving you what you want in the first place, just because they don't give it to you 100 percent of the time.

I am listening to what you are saying. The recent decision to have internovel continuity doesn't go far enough with licensed products in my opinion. IDW Comics and Cryptic have undone some major developments in the novel series where there should be continuity with the novel series and vice versa. It's clear that we agree to disagree on this issue and I expected that this would be your position on this matter. In your opinion, my expectations are unrealistic and unattainable and I am being unreasonable.
 
There should have been better quality control of the product created by licensees. Again, you are writing about the way things progressed while I am writing about the way it should have happened. James Blish should have never been given the creative freedom to freeze the Klingons for all time in the novel Spock Must Die since it is pretty obvious that any future filmed or licensed product might want to use the Klingons. But in your opinion, this places too many restrictions on an author.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess that you don't remember the state of affairs in 1970, when Spock Must Die was published. Star Trek was off the air. It had been cancelled the year before because it was a ratings flop. No one was working on any incarnation of filmed Star Trek. As far as everyone was concerned Star Trek was over for good, so what did it matter what happened in a book?

In 1970, you couldn't walk into a bookstore and expect to find a big selection of SF TV and movie tie-in books. There were a few, but you could probably fit all of the SF TV and movie tie-in books that existed up to that point on a single bookshelf. A few Star Trek books, the Forbidden Planet novelization, eight Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books, two or three Invaders books, 2001: A Space Odyssey, King Kong, Metropolis, a handful of Twilight Zone books, a couple of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea books, fewer than a dozen Doctor Who books, and really not a lot more.

No one had any idea in 1970 that there'd be hundreds of books each related to Star Trek and Doctor Who years later. The kind of quality control you want would have struck people then as utterly ludicrous. It wasn't until the 1980s that writers and editors tried to improve Trek novel continuity, and the canon police, in the form of Richard Arnold circa 1987-1991, told them to knock it off. Meanwhile, nobody made any serious effort to develop a Star Wars novel continuity until 1991, which is also when the Doctor Who New Adventures began.

It's got nothing to do with restrictions on authors or anything else. The idea of quality control you're suggesting just wasn't on anyone's radar. And now it just isn't practical.
 
the way that things should be or should have been when Desilu first sold licenses. Yes, I know that the showrunners have chosen to consider licensee material to be apocryphal and the expectation that most onscreen material should be considered canonical, with a few exceptions depending on the showrunner at the time.

Actually, by your own "Spock Must Die!" example, no Klingons should have appeared in TAS or TMP - or even TNG - because an early tie-in writer, James Blish, who had absolutely nothing to do with the direction of onscreen Star Trek, chose to "freeze" all Klingons for 1000(?) years.

Since ST was a dead TV series when he wrote "Spock Must Die!", how could anyone have perceived that the Klingons sill had some mileage to be made?
 
In the Captain Robau clip that's online now, when he's asked the stardate, he says, "Twenty-two thirty-three oh four." The scene apparently takes place just before
the birth of Jim Kirk, which the Okudachron places in 2233. That suggests that the movie may be using stardates corresponding to Gregorian calendar years, which would be odd, but perhaps deemed necessary to make the dates accessible to new viewers unfamiliar with what century ST is supposed to be in. Or something.

Anyway, I doubt the books would be obligated to follow the movie's system. Stardate schemes have always been pretty arbitrary anyway.
 
In the Captain Robau clip that's online now, when he's asked the stardate, he says, "Twenty-two thirty-three oh four." The scene apparently takes place just before
the birth of Jim Kirk, which the Okudachron places in 2233. That suggests that the movie may be using stardates corresponding to Gregorian calendar years, which would be odd, but perhaps deemed necessary to make the dates accessible to new viewers unfamiliar with what century ST is supposed to be in. Or something.
Anyway, I doubt the books would be obligated to follow the movie's system. Stardate schemes have always been pretty arbitrary anyway.
I can imagine that books set in the new continuity might at some point become obligated to follow that system, since (as you describe) it's a lot less arbitrary than stardates have traditionally been.

Of course, Robau's use of such a stardate means that you can't simply "blame" this on the timeline divergence, so things get a little...complicated...
 
I can imagine that books set in the new continuity might at some point become obligated to follow that system, since (as you describe) it's a lot less arbitrary than stardates have traditionally been.

Actually it's a lot more arbitrary.
If the first four digits are the year, how in the world do you fit any meaningful information into two decimal places? "2233.04" would cover a period from January 15-18, more or less. That's nowhere near specific enough.

Of course, Robau's use of such a stardate means that you can't simply "blame" this on the timeline divergence, so things get a little...complicated...

Well, it's not like we have a clear sense of what the stardate system was like in the pre-TOS era, since the first canonical stardate is in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." It's not like TOS stardates were ever remotely consistent anyway.
 
I can imagine that books set in the new continuity might at some point become obligated to follow that system, since (as you describe) it's a lot less arbitrary than stardates have traditionally been.

Actually it's a lot more arbitrary.
If the first four digits are the year, how in the world do you fit any meaningful information into two decimal places? "2233.04" would cover a period from January 15-18, more or less. That's nowhere near specific enough.
Actually, I meant "arbitrary" in the "stardates don't even describe the year at face value" sense, but
until I see the movie, I don't even know if your "hundredths of a year" assumption is correct. You're right that it's not specific, because it could also mean anytime in April, January 4, or something else entirely.
Nevertheless, giving the year already makes it more specific than "SD 4523.7" was (to us viewers), even if the latter has an immediate meaning to the characters.

Of course, Robau's use of such a stardate means that you can't simply "blame" this on the timeline divergence, so things get a little...complicated...
Well, it's not like we have a clear sense of what the stardate system was like in the pre-TOS era, since the first canonical stardate is in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." It's not like TOS stardates were ever remotely consistent anyway.
Up until this point, I'd always assumed that stardates were a relatively recent development in the TOS era (somewhat reinforced by their not being used on Star Trek: Enterprise), even though WNMHGB itself suggests that characters were born on a stardate...
 
Couldn't they just have been using stardates to refer to a date that was before they began using them?
 
IDW Comics and Cryptic have undone some major developments in the novel series where there should be continuity with the novel series and vice versa.

No offense, but why? Why shouldn't difference licensed Trek stories have the freedom to pick and choose if they'll be consistent with one-another? Why should everything have to fit into one little box?
 
IDW Comics and Cryptic have undone some major developments in the novel series where there should be continuity with the novel series and vice versa.

No offense, but why? Why shouldn't difference licensed Trek stories have the freedom to pick and choose if they'll be consistent with one-another? Why should everything have to fit into one little box?

Not to sound *too* glib, but because then it would fit into one nice, neat little box. You could read one thing, and not have to do any mental gymnastics to make it work with what came before.

While I'm nowhere near as fanatical about it as Herbert is, I can still see the point he's trying to make. People try to give the old "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" argument, but wouldn't it be nicer if the richness of a fictional work came from authors and creators building upon and expanding previous works instead of going off in some wacky new direction each time? Do I have to bring up "The Final Reflection"? (yes, I know that's how it's been in the past several years and I appreciate it).

I'm willing to give the movie a chance, and the more footage and positive reviews I see, the more I'm liking the idea. But there's still a part of me that wants to see the "real timeline" origin story of the TOS crew on the big screen. Yes, it's a big universe, but it could still fit into one neat box, just ask Professor Farnsworth.
 
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