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Alternate Quantum Realities v TimeTravel

PhoenixIreland

Captain
Captain
I may be too confused to put this into words accurately but...

1. Whats the point in altering the timeline (EG Endgame) when there is already an alternate reality where the outcome you desire exists, aren't you just creating a copy with a slight variation?


2. Why would there be a Temporal Investigations branch so worried about altering the timeline when there are an infinite number of realities, what makes the one they're policing so special? Changing it really doesn't "damage" anything but just creates another reality surely?
 
I may be too confused to put this into words accurately but...

1. Whats the point in altering the timeline (EG Endgame) when there is already an alternate reality where the outcome you desire exists, aren't you just creating a copy with a slight variation?

In the case of 'Endgame', Admiral Janeway wanted to save the lives of her crewmembers who didn't survive in that timeline - plus ensure Tuvok was cured of his dementia. Yes, the ship got home but changing things meant a lot of sadness was averted along the way.

That's why anyone would try tweaking a timeline that had a decent outcome, I'd guess. You may have lost people along the way you didn't want to lose. The big question then is: by changing the timeline, do you ultimately make things better or worse?

2. Why would there be a Temporal Investigations branch so worried about altering the timeline when there are an infinite number of realities, what makes the one they're policing so special? Changing it really doesn't "damage" anything but just creates another reality surely?

Yes, but to them it wouldn't be *their* reality. It might only be slightly off, it might even be better, but it wouldn't be the *right* one - as in the reality that existed before they knew time travellers were affecting the timeline.

Again, it's the whole 'is the grass greener?' question. Does a TI branch benefit or hold back Earth? Might someone tweaking things improve everyone's lives? Their argument would be that it *could* lead to very bad events. It's all 'could be's' and 'what if's?'.
 
There were the handful of Voyager eps with the Krenim(?) that had a huge ship that only existed to try to constantly tweak and alter the timeline to change events and outcomes. That's a good illustration of the "ripple effect", how changing one event affects others, which affects others, and so on.
 
I may be too confused to put this into words accurately but...

1. Whats the point in altering the timeline (EG Endgame) when there is already an alternate reality where the outcome you desire exists, aren't you just creating a copy with a slight variation?

Possibily, but presumably you are creating an alternative timeline that you can experience for yourself.


2. Why would there be a Temporal Investigations branch so worried about altering the timeline when there are an infinite number of realities, what makes the one they're policing so special? Changing it really doesn't "damage" anything but just creates another reality surely?

Presumably they are worried that this reality is supposed to be the way it is not some other way, so wish to preserve this reality as it is.
 
But that's the point...from a temporal sciences perspective, who's to say what's the "right" reality? It's all relative. Another reality where for example, Jennifer Sisko survived Wolf 359, probably has its own Temporal Investigations officers working to preserve that reality. What makes one reality more valid than another?
 
But that's the point...from a temporal sciences perspective, who's to say what's the "right" reality? It's all relative. Another reality where for example, Jennifer Sisko survived Wolf 359, probably has its own Temporal Investigations officers working to preserve that reality. What makes one reality more valid than another?

I don't think it does. I think they're just trying to keep them as they are.
 
It depends on what time travel logic they are using. Star Trek has bounced all over the place and I don't think we know what they're using, except that it is not the Lost logic, which is:

1. Timelines are preordained. If you try to go back in time and kill your own grandfather, the cosmos will conspire to stop you, even if implausible things need to occur, like your gun jams 200 times in a row.

So Star Trek might be doing other things:

2. Timelines change all the time, but people don't realize it. If you try to go back in time and kill your own grandfather, you can do it, but then you vanish from the timeline. Nobody remembers you in your own time because you didn't exist.

2a. Sometimes people are "outside the timeline" and can perceive these changes that nobody else realizes.

3. You can't actually time travel within your own timeline. If you try to go back in time and kill your own grandfather, you'll kill someone else's grandfather, who is almost exactly like you, and now that person doesn't exist in that timeline. This timeline logic comes in one of two flavors:

3a. The time travel and/or attempt to change the timeline (killing grandad) causes the timeline to split and create a new timeline.

3b. Infinite parallel timelines already exist, and since they are infinite, anything that could happen does happen in at least one of them. So whatever you want to do in the past, there's a timeline for that to happen in, and you can kill that other guy's grandfather, in fact, you have to, in at least one timeline. This isn't actually time travel so much as parallel reality travel.

And then there's

4. Time traveller as ghost. You can't materially interact with the past or future, but only observe. No grandfather paradox possible.

These all have serious problems when used in fiction.

1. Is a problem in ongoing stories - you can get away with it in a 2-hr movie (Twelve Monkeys) but to try to use it in a serialized TV show raises the so-what issue. Why do we care what the characters do if we know they are straightjacketed by the cosmos that is forcing them into certain paths. Lost has been clever in building up the characters so interestingly that this isn't a big objection - I watch the show just to see how the characters react. Also, Lost has set up the implausible-coincidences notion from the start of the show, before there was a whiff of time travel, so it doesn't seem like it's cobbled on for the sake of the time travel now.

2. Creates total chaos. How can you write a story where nobody knows what's really going on? (A very creative writer might be able to do something good with this, but I'd expect to see that in a novel and not in a TV series, where the audience would be baffled.) So writers usually fall back on 2a. which is a cheat - what if someone "outside the timeline" tries the grandfather thing?

3. If it isn't your own past, or even your own universe, who gives a crap? This logic gets used a lot anyway, because at least it makes internal sense, and even parallel doppelgangers of Our Heroes can be interesting characters. I'd be up for watching a few episodes on the adventures of Mirror Universe Spock for instance.

4. Not usually interesting as the basis of a story, though sometimes okay as a device for giving the characters vital information.

Another way time travel problems are obscured is to turn the whole thing into a comedy. Then illogic and so-what problems can be buried under jokes.

What makes one reality more valid than another?
Under 1, Temporal Investigations has nothing to worry about and the organization does not need to exist.

Under 2, if you assume someone somewhere (and sometime) has the ability to time travel, and in Star Trek that's a given, they are already changing the cosmos out from under you at any given moment, so you better start fighting back and shaping your present to be what you want it to be. You may be making things worse, but the other guys might be making it worser. You can't afford not to time travel.

Under 3, you're playing in somebody else's sandbox, so it's the same as 1 - don't bother.

So this all really heavily depends on what logic is being employed. Trek seems to be using 2, but with the caveat that the timeline can be returned to its original state, which is like being able to unscramble an egg.

Trek may actually be using 3, dressed up as 2. The key is that actions propel you between parallel realities - trying to kill your grandfather creates a new reality or kicks you over into one that already exists.

So when Trek characters try to change a timeline, they aren't changing anything. Their apparently timeline-changing actions are like pushing a button that opens a portal to another reality where that action makes sense. But they can't see the portal or perceive their motion between realities, so to them it's as though their reality has changed.

They start in Reality A, which is how they like things. They get transported to Reality B, which is not to their tastes. They do something to change B so it will become A, but their action merely returns them to A rather than changing B, and they are fooled into thinking they've accomplished something, or that Reality A was ever in danger. And Temporal Investigations is the galaxy's biggest boondoggle. :rommie:
 
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I think Temis has it locked up.

I'd only say that even under the many worlds interpretation, the number of universes isn't infinite, but a large and finite number (the total number of possible quantum states in the universe). If I recall, the estimated number is so large the exponent in the scientific notation requires its own exponent, so it's infinite enough on the human scale...:borg:
 
As other posters pointed out, time travel has...changed in Trek drastically. There are no set rules on how time travel works. So it's up to the episode or movie to decide what the rules will be.

Personally, I think time travel and alternate realities need to stay apart. To each their own.

Also, on the Temporal investigations front. When did they ever say on the show that they know time travel leads to another reality? From their point of view, time travel has always affected one time and one universe and they are striving to protect that one time/universe.

I think we'll all feel bad when Dulmer and Lucsley find out the truth and are forced to file for unemployment.
 
Nope, sorry... as far as the new film is concerned, I still have a problem with this. I actually maintain that televised Star Trek has always been consistant. A 'so called' reset button is as much a part of the show's DNA as anything else...

Villain goes back in time to change history to suit their nafarious purposes. Hero discovers the universe has altered around them and so sets off to restore (as close as possible) everything they know. That may end up in minor revisions, like they interact with the locals or switch places with an historical character. In the classic storytelling style, the next film around 2011 should really involve one of the casts from "our Trekverse" waking up one morning, finding everything they love has been destroyed, so they go back to put it right.

If the conceit is your universe continues to exist, once a divergence is created... what exactly was the point of "City on the Edge of Forever", First Contact, "Past Tense" or any number of time-travel stories? By that logic our heroes are merely trapped where they don't belong, and their history has been shunted sideways. But they never settle for that and do whatever it takes to undo the existence of a wrong timeline.
 
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