How is downloading not stealing?

[Roger Wilco]

Again: bad analogy. Someone's missing that TV, nobody loses anything (directly) by copying something.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Again: bad analogy. Someone's missing that TV, nobody loses anything (directly) by copying something.

Well...we're getting some where, at least you acknowledge that someone loses something in illegal downloading.

Isn't that stealing?

 

[DeafPoet]

I'm interested in how people rationalize it.

I don't rationalize it. It is stealing. I still do it all the time. Guess I'm a bad guy. But at least I'm honest enough with myself to know what it is.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Again: bad analogy. Someone's missing that TV, nobody loses anything (directly) by copying something.

Well...we're getting some where, at least you acknowledge that someone loses something in illegal downloading.

Isn't that stealing?

I think I've made my position pretty clear. Imo it's possible that the copyright owners lose money because of copyright infringement, but how much is difficult or even impossible to quantify.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Again: bad analogy. Someone's missing that TV, nobody loses anything (directly) by copying something.

Well...we're getting some where, at least you acknowledge that someone loses something in illegal downloading.

Isn't that stealing?

I think I've made my position pretty clear. Imo it's possible that the copyright owners lose money because of copyright infringement, but how much is difficult or even impossible to quantify.

So it's a question of the level of damages that makes it stealing?

If it's five dollars it's not, but if it's a 1,000 it is?

I'm not talking the law, I'm just talking strictly ethics.

 

[Amaris]

I always see it like this, and I've said it before:

How would I, as an independent artist, live if I was selling my CDs out of the trunk of my car (not an uncommon thing), someone bought my CD and then proceeded to copy it and give it to his friends, who put it up on Limewire and shared it with everyone? What happens to me?

J.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I always see it like this, and I've said it before:

How would I, as an independent artist, live if I was selling my CDs out of the trunk of my car (not an uncommon thing), someone bought my CD and then proceeded to copy it and give it to his friends, who put it up on Limewire and shared it with everyone? What happens to me?

J.

You, more than likely, make more money than a lot of artists signed to major labels. Immortal Technique brags on his CDs about how he bootlegs his own stuff and makes more money than signed artists because of it.

 

[Amaris]

You, more than likely, make more money than a lot of artists signed to major labels. Immortal Technique brags on his CDs about how he bootlegs his own stuff and makes more money than signed artists because of it.

You think so? So me, out of the trunk of my car, will more than likely make more than, say, Metallica or even Taylor Swift, because I sold one CD and the rest were copied from that one? Hey, I made $5 and now a thousand people have my album.

Are you sure you've got the economics right on this one?


J.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

You, more than likely, make more money than a lot of artists signed to major labels. Immortal Technique brags on his CDs about how he bootlegs his own stuff and makes more money than signed artists because of it.

You think so? So me, out of the trunk of my car, will more than likely make more than, say, Metallica or even Taylor Swift, because I sold one CD and the rest were copied from that one? Hey, I made $5 and now a thousand people have my album.

Are you sure you've got the economics right on this one?


J.

I didn't say a big artist, I said a signed artist. There are plenty of signed artists who just scrape by, or basically make enough to live on between CDs.
Seems like a lot of people like to support small time artists, especially when they know major record labels aren't involved.

I heard Immortal Technique through an illegal download, and because I liked him I've legally bought 2 or 3 of his albums I've been able to find.

Your example of 1 person buying your cd and then tons of other downloading it may happen, but on the other hand those people who hear your cd thanks to downloading it could very well buy it off you if you offer it on your website, or are local and know where to pick it up.

 

[Arrqh]

I always see it like this, and I've said it before:

How would I, as an independent artist, live if I was selling my CDs out of the trunk of my car (not an uncommon thing), someone bought my CD and then proceeded to copy it and give it to his friends, who put it up on Limewire and shared it with everyone? What happens to me?

J.

If you're an artist selling CDs out of the trunk of your car, how does someone downloading a copy of your CD in lets say Europe who will never be near the trunk of your car have any bearing on your finances?

This was Stardock's big thing when they released Sins of a Solar Empire. The people who pirate aren't their customers to begin with because they were never going to purchase the product. If someone is outside of your target market and they download a copy of your work you haven't actually lost anything. Which is, incidentally, fundamentally why it's not classified as stealing but instead as infringement which is the point Roger Wilco is making.

 

[Amaris]

I didn't say a big artist, I said a signed artist. There are plenty of signed artists who just scrape by, or basically make enough to live on between CDs.
Seems like a lot of people like to support small time artists, especially when they know major record labels aren't involved.

I heard Immortal Technique through an illegal download, and because I liked him I've legally bought 2 or 3 of his albums I've been able to find.

Your example of 1 person buying your cd and then tons of other downloading it may happen, but on the other hand those people who hear your cd thanks to downloading it could very well buy it off you if you offer it on your website, or are local and know where to pick it up.

Very well could buy it off me, sure. But will they? They have my album for free. I would say that many won't buy it when they can get it for free.

If you're an artist selling CDs out of the trunk of your car, how does someone downloading a copy of your CD in lets say Europe who will never be near the trunk of your car have any bearing on your finances?

This was Stardock's big thing when they released Sins of a Solar Empire. The people who pirate aren't their customers to begin with because they were never going to purchase the product. If someone is outside of your target market and they download a copy of your work you haven't actually lost anything. Which is, incidentally, fundamentally why it's not classified as stealing but instead as infringement which is the point Roger Wilco is making.

Ah, but that's the beauty of distribution. Suppose I change the method to download online from my website. You download all of my songs and pay $5.

Then you share my music with the rest of the world for free. I made $5 from the one sale, and now a thousand people have my album for free.

What has changed beside the medium and distribution method?

J.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Because the internet can reach SO many people, it's actually a smart thing to allow an artist to have their material, or samples, available on the internet. It would be a smart business decision.

And since it would be with the author's permission, the downloads would be legal. No ethical problems...

And also, OT, I would bet most artists make most of their money from touring, as labels eat up a lot of profit from the CD sales. If more people know about your music, the more people might show up at a concert.

Legal downloads...a good idea.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I didn't say a big artist, I said a signed artist. There are plenty of signed artists who just scrape by, or basically make enough to live on between CDs.
Seems like a lot of people like to support small time artists, especially when they know major record labels aren't involved.

I heard Immortal Technique through an illegal download, and because I liked him I've legally bought 2 or 3 of his albums I've been able to find.

Your example of 1 person buying your cd and then tons of other downloading it may happen, but on the other hand those people who hear your cd thanks to downloading it could very well buy it off you if you offer it on your website, or are local and know where to pick it up.

Very well could buy it off me, sure. But will they? They have my album for free. I would say that many won't buy it when they can get it for free.
J.

Well I would say a lot of people would, but I would guess that by no means would it be all, or even a majority of them. But if it means you reach more people with your material, and you sell more than you ever would have without the downloads it could very well have helped your sales, rather than hindered them. So what harm would it really have done you?
Sure some people might have your material without having paid you for it, but if you got even a few more sales because of it than you would have otherwise, then you have prospered from an illegal, and in your eyes immoral act. So especially where it would be from people who never would have heard of you, or thought about buying your cd previous to hearing it. So again, where was the harm done to you?

 

[Arrqh]

Ah, but that's the beauty of distribution. Suppose I change the method to download online from my website. You download all of my songs and pay $5.

Then you share my music with the rest of the world for free. I made $5 from the one sale, and now a thousand people have my album for free.

What has changed beside the medium and distribution method?

J.

Nothing has changed. The people who downloaded it off Limewire probably weren't going to be paying customers regardless. It's just a little more obvious when there's a physical disparity.

As far as I'm concerned, people generally pirate because of one of two factors. The first is convince. People download episodes of TV shows that haven't aired in their territory yet. People download games that haven't been released in their territory yet. They download music that they can't find for sale online without stupid DRM restrictions. And that's fixable... you do it not by forcing DRM or the like on to people, but by making sure that everything is available at the same time worldwide without restrictions.

The other is people who weren't under any circumstances going to pay for a product and if that option wasn't there they just would forgo whatever product is at hand. And those people are simply a write off. They were never going to be paying customers and the fact that they're downloading your stuff isn't actually costing you anything because they weren't ever going to give you money.

 

[Amaris]

Well I would say a lot of people would, but I would guess that by no means would it be all, or even a majority of them. But if it means you reach more people with your material, and you sell more than you ever would have without the downloads it could very well have helped your sales, rather than hindered them. So what harm would it really have done you?
Sure some people might have your material without having paid you for it, but if you got even a few more sales because of it than you would have otherwise, then you have prospered from an illegal, and in your eyes immoral act. So especially where it would be from people who never would have heard of you, or thought about buying your cd previous to hearing it. So again, where was the harm done to you?

What do you call the people who downloaded my album but never bought it?

Nothing has changed. The people who downloaded it off Limewire probably weren't going to be paying customers regardless. It's just a little more obvious when there's a physical disparity.

As far as I'm concerned, people generally pirate because of one of two factors. The first is convince. People download episodes of TV shows that haven't aired in their territory yet. People download games that haven't been released in their territory yet. They download music that they can't find for sale online without stupid DRM restrictions. And that's fixable... you do it not by forcing DRM or the like on to people, but by making sure that everything is available at the same time worldwide without restrictions.

The other is people who weren't under any circumstances going to pay for a product and if that option wasn't there they just would forgo whatever product is at hand. And those people are simply a write off. They were never going to be paying customers and the fact that they're downloading your stuff isn't actually costing you anything because they weren't ever going to give you money.

Okay, and what do you call those people who downloaded my album but never bought it?


J.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Ah, but that's the beauty of distribution. Suppose I change the method to download online from my website. You download all of my songs and pay $5.

Then you share my music with the rest of the world for free. I made $5 from the one sale, and now a thousand people have my album for free.

What has changed beside the medium and distribution method?

J.

Nothing has changed. The people who downloaded it off Limewire probably weren't going to be paying customers regardless. It's just a little more obvious when there's a physical disparity.

As far as I'm concerned, people generally pirate because of one of two factors. The first is convince. People download episodes of TV shows that haven't aired in their territory yet. People download games that haven't been released in their territory yet. They download music that they can't find for sale online without stupid DRM restrictions. And that's fixable... you do it not by forcing DRM or the like on to people, but by making sure that everything is available at the same time worldwide without restrictions.

The other is people who weren't under any circumstances going to pay for a product and if that option wasn't there they just would forgo whatever product is at hand. And those people are simply a write off. They were never going to be paying customers and the fact that they're downloading your stuff isn't actually costing you anything because they weren't ever going to give you money.

Agreed, but there is of course the 3rd reason. Try before you buy. which would only amount to a lost sale if it turned out the person downloading didn't think it was worth buying.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Well I would say a lot of people would, but I would guess that by no means would it be all, or even a majority of them. But if it means you reach more people with your material, and you sell more than you ever would have without the downloads it could very well have helped your sales, rather than hindered them. So what harm would it really have done you?
Sure some people might have your material without having paid you for it, but if you got even a few more sales because of it than you would have otherwise, then you have prospered from an illegal, and in your eyes immoral act. So especially where it would be from people who never would have heard of you, or thought about buying your cd previous to hearing it. So again, where was the harm done to you?

What do you call the people who downloaded my album but never bought it?

Nothing has changed. The people who downloaded it off Limewire probably weren't going to be paying customers regardless. It's just a little more obvious when there's a physical disparity.

As far as I'm concerned, people generally pirate because of one of two factors. The first is convince. People download episodes of TV shows that haven't aired in their territory yet. People download games that haven't been released in their territory yet. They download music that they can't find for sale online without stupid DRM restrictions. And that's fixable... you do it not by forcing DRM or the like on to people, but by making sure that everything is available at the same time worldwide without restrictions.

The other is people who weren't under any circumstances going to pay for a product and if that option wasn't there they just would forgo whatever product is at hand. And those people are simply a write off. They were never going to be paying customers and the fact that they're downloading your stuff isn't actually costing you anything because they weren't ever going to give you money.

Okay, and what do you call those people who downloaded my album but never bought it?


J.

Pirates?
I know you're looking for thieves, but I guess it would very much depend on the circumstance of them not buying it.
If they were never going to buy it, and they never never buy anything than they're pretty much the reason for the whole problem in the first place.
If they didn't like it, then I'd call them smart for not wasting their money.

 

[Amaris]

Pirates?
I know you're looking for thieves, but I guess it would very much depend on the circumstance of them not buying it.
If they were never going to buy it, and they never never buy anything than they're pretty much the reason for the whole problem in the first place.
If they didn't like it, then I'd call them smart for not wasting their money.

You consider pirates and thieves to be two separate things?

Anyway, so if I offered 2 free songs out of say 10, would that be enough for them to "try" before they buy? I mean, at what point does it go from just trying the album to getting the milk for free?


J.

 

[Arrqh]

You consider pirates and thieves to be two separate things?

Common nomenclature calls them pirates. The actions are clearly separate in any case... people who copy things without permission are infringing, people who take physical goods are stealing.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Pirates?
I know you're looking for thieves, but I guess it would very much depend on the circumstance of them not buying it.
If they were never going to buy it, and they never never buy anything than they're pretty much the reason for the whole problem in the first place.
If they didn't like it, then I'd call them smart for not wasting their money.

You consider pirates and thieves to be two separate things?

Anyway, so if I offered 2 free songs out of say 10, would that be enough for them to "try" before they buy? I mean, at what point does it go from just trying the album to getting the milk for free?


J.

Yes, pirates copy things, make duplicates, sell on for profit or use for their own ends. Thieves take things, possibly for the same reasons.

I don't know, is it the 2 best songs on the album, and the rest are shit and not really worth buying? You see that's why sometimes the only way to truely know how good something is is to see/hear it in it's entirety. So many albums have got 2 good songs, which are played endlessly on the radio/music channels, and then the rest of the cd is pointless shit. You hear those 2 and then spend £10 on a cd that turns out you already heard the best of anyway. Just as a lot of movies have their best bits in the trailer, then are rubbish when you see them in full.