How is downloading not stealing?

[Amaris]

Agreed. If the studios would release the films, it would put a whole bunch of thieves out of business. At least in the classic film community.

Collectors like me would be more than happy to pay for commercially released versions of these films. But when they don't release them, (and a couple of studios are really notorious about ignoring their classic film vault) there are collectors out there who just get tired a waiting. They want to see a particular film, and they wait and wait for years...and finally give up and buy a copy from some 'goob' off ebay for $20. The film quality is crappy, there is no recourse, and they are ultimately disappointed.

But the sad thing is that they would have eagerly paid that same $20 to the studio to get a legitimate copy, if it had been made available.

I don't buy films on ebay - there are very few films I'd be willing to shell out $20 for if I can't be sure the quality is good.

But I know people who do purchase such films from time to time. And I know one guy in the classic film community who quite literally lives off of pirating. That is his entire 'job'. Shoot - I'd be willing to bet he doesn't even pay taxes. So he is robbing the studios, the government, AND his customers. A triple header of thievery!

I wouldn't buy anything from him in a million years as it torks me no end that this guy openly sells copies of films he doesn't own for $20 per film to desperate collectors. But I know people who have bought from him. He has about 60,000 movies, from what I understand. And so if a collector is really desperate to get a copy of a particular film, this guy probably has it...and will sell it to them for a premium. Never mind the fact that he did NOTHING to create the thing to begin with and is little more than a parasite.

So you see, nothing would make me happier than for the studios to open their frakkin' valuts and put this guy and others like him right out of business.

Agreed. It's pirates like that who make it so much more difficult.
I have a huge issue with stealing for the sake of stealing, or for the sake of laziness, greed or inconvenience.

J.

 

[Rii]

The claim doesn't require proof, it's self-evident. Your implicit counter-claim that the demand curve for media content is entirely flat is an extraordinary one requiring extraordinary proof. Just as sales of many products spike following a price cut, folks are willing to download things for free that they wouldn't otherwise be willing to pay for.

Are you saying you only download music you wouldn't otherwise pay for? As in, if it wasn't available by any other means, you wouldn't own it?

Nothing so principled. The vast majority of music I've obtained illegally I wouldn't be willing to pay for, and most of the stuff I would I hadn't heard of prior to obtaining it illegally, but there are certainly exceptions. It's important to distinguish legality from morality from practicality.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

but it's a weak type of unethical behavior like sneaking candy into a movie

This is an odd one. Sneaking food in to a cinema isn't illegal, sure some cinemas don't want you to do it, because they want you to pay for their over priced stuff. But there is no law against it. I believe their might be a health and safety problem with bringing hot food in to a cinema, but not cold food/sweets or drinks.

 

[J.T.B.]

That there is the big distinction between the anti-downloading group and the pro-pirating group.

Legality vs. Morality

I fully admit that my pirating is illegal, but I don't believe it hurts anyone. That makes it fine in my book.

You've admitted that you feel you should be able to take something without compensation if you feel that the item is, in your opinion, overpriced. So you have the full consumer value of the item without giving anything in return. Regardless of whom it hurts or doesn't hurt, how is that transaction "moral"? How are the ethics of that transaction different from, say, filling your tank and driving away from the gas station without paying when you feel gas prices are too high? I know they are different crimes, theft and copyright infringement, but how are they ethically different at the level of the individual actor?

And of course piracy hurts people. While it is true that there have always been forms of media piracy, there were also barriers (cost of equipment, cost of distribution, reduced quality) that made the legal alternative competitive, and the "black market" was of such a scale that it could be accounted for in the producer's price. With digital media and online distribution, it is virtually free to make unlimited numbers of copies of the exact same quality and distribute them just as freely. Obviously, the scale of online piracy can't realistically be compared to earlier forms like audio cassette and VHS duping.

The "victims" are not just rich recording artists and executives. The impact extends to the working men and women laid off by recording companies that have to downsize, to the struggling band who won't get signed, and to the composer who has to quit music because his/her royalties have dried up. The conservative think tank Institute for Policy Innovation has a report that looks at the impact of media piracy across the whole economy. While one might question the motivations of the study, the methodology is pretty sound, and there is little room for doubt that media piracy costs the economy thousands of jobs and billions of dollars.

So, while an individual's illegal downloading may seem like a drop in the ocean, don't kid yourself that you are not participating in something with a huge cumulative effect.

I too believe that copyright law has in some cases been stretched far beyond what is beneficial for society as a whole. However, I do not delude myself into believing that that absolves me from acting as an ethical participant in the media economy. New revenue models that benefit all parties will be worked out eventually, meanwhile I will shop smart in the existing structures and pay my way legally and ethically.

--Justin

 

[DaleC76]

but it's a weak type of unethical behavior like sneaking candy into a movie

This is an odd one. Sneaking food in to a cinema isn't illegal, sure some cinemas don't want you to do it, because they want you to pay for their over priced stuff. But there is no law against it. I believe their might be a health and safety problem with bringing hot food in to a cinema, but not cold food/sweets or drinks.

It's not illegal, but there are those who would say that it's "wrong" or unethical. Some might argue that you are in fact stealing potential revenue from the concession stands.

 

[Star Wolf]

but it's a weak type of unethical behavior like sneaking candy into a movie

This is an odd one. Sneaking food in to a cinema isn't illegal, sure some cinemas don't want you to do it, because they want you to pay for their over priced stuff. But there is no law against it. I believe their might be a health and safety problem with bringing hot food in to a cinema, but not cold food/sweets or drinks.

It's not illegal, but there are those who would say that it's wrong or unethical. Some might argue that you are in fact stealing potential revenue from the concession stands.

Except they claim by admission you are buying a movie or a basketball game, not the opportunity to buy popcorn.

 

[DaleC76]

This is an odd one. Sneaking food in to a cinema isn't illegal, sure some cinemas don't want you to do it, because they want you to pay for their over priced stuff. But there is no law against it. I believe their might be a health and safety problem with bringing hot food in to a cinema, but not cold food/sweets or drinks.

It's not illegal, but there are those who would say that it's wrong or unethical. Some might argue that you are in fact stealing potential revenue from the concession stands.

Except they claim by admission you are buying a movie or a basketball game, not the opportunity to buy popcorn.

Most theaters or ballparks have signs clearly stating you cannot bring outside food in, and will not allow you in if you openly try to do so. When you buy a ticket, you are in essence promising to follow the rules. No Pee Wee Herman stuff in the back of the theater, no smoking at the ballpark, ect.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

It's not illegal, but there are those who would say that it's wrong or unethical. Some might argue that you are in fact stealing potential revenue from the concession stands.

Except they claim by admission you are buying a movie or a basketball game, not the opportunity to buy popcorn.

Most theaters or ballparks have signs clearly stating you cannot bring outside food in, and will not allow you in if you openly try to do so. When you buy a ticket, you are in essence promising to follow the rules. No Pee Wee Herman stuff in the back of the theater, no smoking at the ballpark, ect.

None I've been to have signs saying that, well not in the last 5 years or more.

 

[DaleC76]

Except they claim by admission you are buying a movie or a basketball game, not the opportunity to buy popcorn.

Most theaters or ballparks have signs clearly stating you cannot bring outside food in, and will not allow you in if you openly try to do so. When you buy a ticket, you are in essence promising to follow the rules. No Pee Wee Herman stuff in the back of the theater, no smoking at the ballpark, ect.

None I've been to have signs saying that, well not in the last 5 years or more.

Take you a bag of chips and six pack next time you go, and I'm sure they'll point it out.

I've seen children forced to throw away bottle of Coke at a recent Titans game. Dude was getting some hard stares from their mom.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Most theaters or ballparks have signs clearly stating you cannot bring outside food in, and will not allow you in if you openly try to do so. When you buy a ticket, you are in essence promising to follow the rules. No Pee Wee Herman stuff in the back of the theater, no smoking at the ballpark, ect.

None I've been to have signs saying that, well not in the last 5 years or more.

Take you a bag of chips and six pack next time you go, and I'm sure they'll point it out.

I've seen children forced to throw away bottle of Coke at a recent Titans game. Dude was getting some hard stares from their mom.

I often take in a drink, or some sweets when I'm low on funds. My friend often takes his own popcorn, never once been told it's not allowed. The last sports event I went to, a rugby match, they wouldn't allow beer from outside, but we took in soft drinks and something to eat and that was fine by them.

 

[DaleC76]

^^ Where are you from?

They're pretty strict around here. In the days of yore, I worked at a small theater, and remember how strongly they felt about the subject. I've also had my umbrella taken from me at a football game.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^^ Where are you from?

They're pretty strict around here. In the days of yore, I worked at a small theater, and remember how strongly they felt about the subject. I've also had my umbrella taken from me at a football game.

From Yorkshire, in England.
We did have the stick from our team flag taken off us at the rugby match.

It may just be the cinema I go to, but there have even been consumer shows telling people to take their own food and drinks along to the cinema to send a message to the cinemas the amount of over charging is unacceptable.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Candy from supermarket £1

Candy from cinema £4

Waiting six months for the DVD to come out, then six months for the price to drop to £5 and watching it at home on a big screen, with no mobile phones going off, annoying kids, rustling wrappers, dodgy projection, cheap sound, old grannies asking "What's happening now" at the top of their voices, Carl Spock in the front obscuring half the screen with his afro, and the other half with smoke from a joint...

Fucking priceless.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Candy from supermarket £1

Candy from cinema £4

Waiting six months for the DVD to come out, then six months for the price to drop to £5 and watching it at home on a big screen, with no mobile phones going off, annoying kids, rustling wrappers, dodgy projection, cheap sound, old grannies asking "What's happening now" at the top of their voices, Carl Spock in the front obscuring half the screen with his afro, and the other half with smoke from a joint...

Fucking priceless.

i guess I'm just lucky, but I hardly ever experience anything like that when I go to cinema, which is a minimum of 3 times a month.
True, I do mostly go to early showings, and not packed friday nights, which could be why.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Candy from supermarket £1

Candy from cinema £4

Waiting six months for the DVD to come out, then six months for the price to drop to £5 and watching it at home on a big screen, with no mobile phones going off, annoying kids, rustling wrappers, dodgy projection, cheap sound, old grannies asking "What's happening now" at the top of their voices, Carl Spock in the front obscuring half the screen with his afro, and the other half with smoke from a joint...

Fucking priceless.

i guess I'm just lucky, but I hardly ever experience anything like that when I go to cinema, which is a minimum of 3 times a month.
True, I do mostly go to early showings, and not packed friday nights, which could be why.

I used to love the cinema, but this was when it was cheap. People would go to the cinema to watch movies, not for a whole day out...

Actually, I wrote a blog about it last year that still applies

Why Don't You Go To The Cinema Anymore?

Boils down to being ripped off...

 

[Tomato]

This is a really interesting thread, and some very good arguments have been made on the part of folks who do some downloading as to why it's morally acceptable in their case - they typically follow up the download with a purchase, or use the download as a "trial" for short-term use only, etc.

But honestly, I think that type of behavior is in the minority when it comes to downloaders. Many, many, many folks DO download rather than purchase, and often in enormous volume. I know people (grown adults, not kids) who say with great pride that they haven't bought a new CD since they discovered Napster 10 years ago. And that's the real problem for the industry.

Now, are they handling it well? No, tactics like DRM and lawsuits against randomly chosen downloaders probably hurt more than help. But there's no question that the problem is very real, and the industry can attribute a lot of lost revenue to illegal downloading, and ultimately it has to do something in response.

Exactly, like the aforementioned teens who pirate gospel music over file sharing. It seriously blows my mind! I've met some of these kids, and they have money, yet they download every type of gospel and Christian contemporary music there is.

J.

J, I could be wrong here, not a christian artist. But isn't there first purpose to the spread the word of God. And by offering music for free isn't that/ should that be enough for them?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Candy from supermarket £1

Candy from cinema £4

Waiting six months for the DVD to come out, then six months for the price to drop to £5 and watching it at home on a big screen, with no mobile phones going off, annoying kids, rustling wrappers, dodgy projection, cheap sound, old grannies asking "What's happening now" at the top of their voices, Carl Spock in the front obscuring half the screen with his afro, and the other half with smoke from a joint...

Fucking priceless.

i guess I'm just lucky, but I hardly ever experience anything like that when I go to cinema, which is a minimum of 3 times a month.
True, I do mostly go to early showings, and not packed friday nights, which could be why.

I used to love the cinema, but this was when it was cheap. People would go to the cinema to watch movies, not for a whole day out...

Actually, I wrote a blog about it last year that still applies

Why Don't You Go To The Cinema Anymore?

Boils down to being ripped off...

I have one of the Cineworld unlimited cards, which actually makes it cheaper to go more often for me. I used to buy a drink/sweets/whatever I actually wanted while I was there, figuring that since after 2 films I was pretty much getting in for free, then over the last few months I've noticed the drinks seem to be watered down, and going up in price every few months, so I've begun to think fuck it, and take in a 50p bottle of cola, rather than paying £2.90 for the watered down drink they're serving.

 

[Amaris]

J, I could be wrong here, not a christian artist. But isn't there first purpose to the spread the word of God. And by offering music for free isn't that/ should that be enough for them?

Yes, the first purpose is to spread the word of God. My issue with Christian commercialism is large and varied, but that's another story. The music itself is a wholly created work and the same process for creating, publishing and distributing that music is the same. These kids know better, and doubly so that they're stealing that biblically based work without forethought. It's a sad thing to see.


J.

 

[Roger Wilco]

I often take in a drink, or some sweets when I'm low on funds. My friend often takes his own popcorn, never once been told it's not allowed. The last sports event I went to, a rugby match, they wouldn't allow beer from outside, but we took in soft drinks and something to eat and that was fine by them.

Try doing that in the Premier League and they'll throw you in the jail for the night (only slight exaggeration).

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I often take in a drink, or some sweets when I'm low on funds. My friend often takes his own popcorn, never once been told it's not allowed. The last sports event I went to, a rugby match, they wouldn't allow beer from outside, but we took in soft drinks and something to eat and that was fine by them.

Try doing that in the Premier League and they'll throw you in the jail for the night (only slight exaggeration).

Eh, who cares about football?