The Enetrprise D's Record of Battles

[Vanyel]

That sort of relies on Geordi staring over at the shield frequency indicator the entire time.

At the very least any console that shows the ships shield frequency. And a quick glance is all that is needed. LaForge's VISOR see's most everything, so glance and enhance and boom shields might as well be down.

Anyway, another time the ENT-D fell short to me was in Yesterday's Enterprise. That was the battleship Enterprise-D and it still shot only one burst of torpedoes the entire fight and something like 4 phaser shots before going under.

And since they were trying to defend the ENT-C from multiple attackers, that would've been an ideal situation to do a saucer sep.

That version of the ship also suffered from a severe case of exploding consol.

Saucer separation might not be available on the Klingon-War-Universe type Galaxy Class ship. There was a mention of damage to "structural latching system", but if that is the latching between the star drive and the saucer is unknown. Besides even if it could separate, they might have needed the power from the saucer's impulse engines.

 

[Tomalak]

^It does, and frankly it defies plausibility to assume that anything other than that is what happened. A single line from Worf to say 'I have been rotating shield frequencies, to no effect' would have honestly helped me wrap my head around it a little more.

Geordi was doing that in Best of Both Worlds, so it's reasonable to assume it's part of his job.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, one would assume that shield rotation couldn't even take place without LaForge being involved - without him at least taking a glance at the new frequency once it kicks in...

When they matched the shield frequency of the 1701D, the BoP shields also had to be at that frequency to allow their weapons to pass through.

Probably not. Otherwise all Star Trek combat would have to feature that aspect:

"They shot at us with 367 megacycle disruptors!"
"Quick, fire back with 367 megacycle phasers!"

Outgoing weapons fire apparently doesn't have to mind the shields, or at least it gets out through a window (in space or frequency) that cannot be figured out by analyzing the outgoing fire. This nontraceability would not be affected by the fire being tuned to a specific frequency for better penetration of the target shields; that is, ST:GEN should in no way be a special case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vanyel]

Indeed, one would assume that shield rotation couldn't even take place without LaForge being involved - without him at least taking a glance at the new frequency once it kicks in...

When they matched the shield frequency of the 1701D, the BoP shields also had to be at that frequency to allow their weapons to pass through.

Probably not. Otherwise all Star Trek combat would have to feature that aspect:

"They shot at us with 367 megacycle disruptors!"
"Quick, fire back with 367 megacycle phasers!"

Outgoing weapons fire apparently doesn't have to mind the shields, or at least it gets out through a window (in space or frequency) that cannot be figured out by analyzing the outgoing fire. This nontraceability would not be affected by the fire being tuned to a specific frequency for better penetration of the target shields; that is, ST:GEN should in no way be a special case.

Timo Saloniemi

Not really. If my idea is true and the ships shields and its weapons must be at the same frequency changing your weapons frequency to match your opponents would make your shields useless. In battle it would be better to keep your shields and weapons on a different frequency than your opponent. But in Generations, the Duras sisters had an ace in the hole, that's what made their attack so devastating.

 

[Vanyel]

I was watching the battle in Generations on YouTube. More circumstantial evidence is presented.

The Klingons fire there weapons in bursts. Then they seem to stop firing for a moment. Or the 1701D is hit, but the ship is seen to shudder under the impact. This could be interpreted as the 1701D changing its shield frequency, and the Klingon weapons impacting the shields. The Duras sisters could also be waiting for their next opportunity to reset their weapons to the new frequency. Also if the 1701D's shields are being hit, it could provide a bit of cover for their eyes in engineering.

Then one of the Klingons tells the sisters that their shields are holding. This would seem to imply that the 1701D was firing its weapons. It's at this point that the Duras sisters decide to target the bridge, in essence trying to take out the bridge before someone caught on to what their advantage was.

 

[Dayton3]

A D'deridex Warbird on the big screen would have improved the movie for me by approximately one and a half stars.

I own the Hallmark ornament of that ship, for God's sake.

Agreed. You can imagine how I feel about that.

Also taking some damage earlier in the movie would have made the plot-forced D destruction much more plausible. Still annoying, but more plausible.

Is it just me or does anyone feel like they might not have had as many 'budget concerns' if they weren't rebuilding everything for the next movie and redressing the standing sets for VGR? It would have been easy enough to explain away why the corridors of the D looked different.

One thing they spent a huge amount of money in Generations on was Herman Zimmermans "Stellar Cartography" Set.

Reportedly, Zimmerman had been wanting to build the set for years on ST:TNG but they didn't have the money. So they "rewarded" Zimmerman for his work by allowing him to build Stellar Cartography, even though it was used for barely minutes for dialogue that could've been delivered anywhere.

 

[Tomalak]

He also wanted it to be a giant sphere, like in X-Men.

 

[Praetor]

A D'deridex Warbird on the big screen would have improved the movie for me by approximately one and a half stars.

I own the Hallmark ornament of that ship, for God's sake.

Agreed. You can imagine how I feel about that.

Also taking some damage earlier in the movie would have made the plot-forced D destruction much more plausible. Still annoying, but more plausible.

Is it just me or does anyone feel like they might not have had as many 'budget concerns' if they weren't rebuilding everything for the next movie and redressing the standing sets for VGR? It would have been easy enough to explain away why the corridors of the D looked different.

One thing they spent a huge amount of money in Generations on was Herman Zimmermans "Stellar Cartography" Set.

Reportedly, Zimmerman had been wanting to build the set for years on ST:TNG but they didn't have the money. So they "rewarded" Zimmerman for his work by allowing him to build Stellar Cartography, even though it was used for barely minutes for dialogue that could've been delivered anywhere.

I'm all for rewarding the man, as he did fine work, but spending a good chunk of the budget on that set rather than a better climactic battle, for example? Geez.

I was watching the battle in Generations on YouTube. More circumstantial evidence is presented.

The Klingons fire there weapons in bursts. Then they seem to stop firing for a moment. Or the 1701D is hit, but the ship is seen to shudder under the impact. This could be interpreted as the 1701D changing its shield frequency, and the Klingon weapons impacting the shields. The Duras sisters could also be waiting for their next opportunity to reset their weapons to the new frequency. Also if the 1701D's shields are being hit, it could provide a bit of cover for their eyes in engineering.

Then one of the Klingons tells the sisters that their shields are holding. This would seem to imply that the 1701D was firing its weapons. It's at this point that the Duras sisters decide to target the bridge, in essence trying to take out the bridge before someone caught on to what their advantage was.

Hm, that's rather interesting.

 

[Tomalak]

To be fair, I think Stellar Cartography is a great set, and it makes a scene full of very dull exposition much more palatable.

I imagine the crash sequence can't have been cheap, and the actual battle scenes they did film all look pretty good. If only Sherry Lansing had given them another $5 million to shoot more space battle on top of the new ending.

 

[cwl]

Its interesting to see our heroes use exploits, gimmicks and technobabble to win fights, but when an old BOP does the same thing and knocks the D out of orbit everyone cries FOUL!

I guess the bad-guys aren't permitted to adapt and change and pose a new and different sort of threat... rather they should remain cardboard parodies of something that we can beat up without guilt.

I didn't cry foul at what the Duras sisters did. I cried foul when Data used some treknobabble to defeat the BoP.

 

[Praetor]

All's fair in technobabble and war.

 

[Captain Fine]

By the way, as storyboarded in "Generations", the reasons for the Enterprise destruction was far more detailed and believable.

Originally, the Enterprise torpedo spread was supposed to explode the BOP and break it in half. The forward half of the BOP was supposed to slam into the Enterprise engineering hull and explode. Causing the critical damage.

But David Carson apparently decided that reusing the Star Trek VI footage was better than anything he could afford to do brand new on Generations.

This sounds so much better than what we got. Kinda BSG actually (see the last battle of Pegasus).

I didn't have any trouble with the Visor plan, but it has several weaknesses.

First off, ever since BoBW it's been pretty common for them to switch shield frequencies to keep enemy fire from getting through. But in GEN Worf says "they've found a way to penetrate the shields" and then they...do nothing about it. They don't question it, and they certainly didn't try to counter the effect at all.

Secondly, they don't fight back. I think they fire one phaser blast during the entire battle. And one torp, after messing with some overly complicated technobabble thing that was really not needed. How about this, Riker: how about you stop trying to be McGyver and just shoot the f**king BOP.

Anyway, back on topic, the lack of shooting on the ENT-D is something that isn't just in GEN. I think it could be a result of Berman's bean counting of the phaser effects. It wasn't until NEM that we actually saw the ENT-E shoot several phasers at once.

But even with shields, the BOP should be suffering a lot more vs. a GALAXY-class starship, even one without shields. I'd say a BOP and a Jem'Hadar fighter are pretty well-matched. If the Odyssey could survive 3 Jemmies, Enterprise should survive ONE BOP.

Or a TNG remaster. I for one would orgasam several times while watching Yesterdays Enterprise with all new combat footage. In fact I might need a could of those ShamWow things.

TNG remaster, aka new footage would be totally cool. They've got all these CGI models lying around, why not use them? Hell, we could do a whole SETI-type thing and devote our computers' resources to redoing the TNG CGI. I'd be up for it. Hell, they have to redo the effects for Blu-Ray anyway, don't they? I always liked the Yesterday's Enterprise battle. So they should give us both the old versions and the new versions. Can you imagine the Enterprise actually FIRING her wearpons??? *excited*

Yeah but come on, look at the beating the unshielded Odyssey took against three Jem'Hadar fighters. The E-D was supposed to have some pretty good guns, so shields or no shields just keep firing torpedoes until the BOP is scrap. It even looks weird on screen, like Riker is majorly pulling his punches.

My only explanation is that Riker had the hots for the Duras and wanted to have a threesome with them (which he'd be unable to do if he destroyed their ship) -_-

As originally written, the Enterprise-D was supposed to show up at the station/array where Soran was found, DURING the attack by the Romulans.

They were supposed to have a scene with the Enterprise streaking in firing and engaging the Romulan Warbird while Worf (still dressed in his wet clothes from the Holodeck) and a group of Security Guards took on the Romulans.

I always assumed that the writers figured the Enterprise could've taken damage during that battle with the Warbird that cost them later against the Duras sisters BOP.

Reportedly though, Jeri Taylor read the script and advised against having a starship combat sequence at that point in the movie, and with budget constraints they decided to pull it.

OMG OMG I wish they'd done this. Seeing the beautiful Rommie Warbird on-screen fighting the 1701-D would have been a dream. Can you imagine? After all those standoffs with the Romulans, they'd finally get to FIGHT them??? A warbird! I don't think the Ent ever fought warbirds before!!!

One thing they spent a huge amount of money in Generations on was Herman Zimmermans "Stellar Cartography" Set.

Reportedly, Zimmerman had been wanting to build the set for years on ST:TNG but they didn't have the money. So they "rewarded" Zimmerman for his work by allowing him to build Stellar Cartography, even though it was used for barely minutes for dialogue that could've been delivered anywhere.

I kinda liked stellar cartography though. But if less stellar cartography had meant better firefights, I think I'd have taken the firefights. Although if they ever redo the battles, then we could have our cake and eat it too

 

[Praetor]

As originally written, the Enterprise-D was supposed to show up at the station/array where Soran was found, DURING the attack by the Romulans.

They were supposed to have a scene with the Enterprise streaking in firing and engaging the Romulan Warbird while Worf (still dressed in his wet clothes from the Holodeck) and a group of Security Guards took on the Romulans.

I always assumed that the writers figured the Enterprise could've taken damage during that battle with the Warbird that cost them later against the Duras sisters BOP.

Reportedly though, Jeri Taylor read the script and advised against having a starship combat sequence at that point in the movie, and with budget constraints they decided to pull it.

OMG OMG I wish they'd done this. Seeing the beautiful Rommie Warbird on-screen fighting the 1701-D would have been a dream. Can you imagine? After all those standoffs with the Romulans, they'd finally get to FIGHT them??? A warbird! I don't think the Ent ever fought warbirds before!!!

Yep. The Romulans get the shaft in favor of Klingons again. Conspiracy!!

 

[noknowes]

A D'deridex Warbird on the big screen would have improved the movie for me by approximately one and a half stars.

I own the Hallmark ornament of that ship, for God's sake.

Agreed. You can imagine how I feel about that.

Also taking some damage earlier in the movie would have made the plot-forced D destruction much more plausible. Still annoying, but more plausible.

Is it just me or does anyone feel like they might not have had as many 'budget concerns' if they weren't rebuilding everything for the next movie and redressing the standing sets for VGR? It would have been easy enough to explain away why the corridors of the D looked different.

One thing they spent a huge amount of money in Generations on was Herman Zimmermans "Stellar Cartography" Set.

Reportedly, Zimmerman had been wanting to build the set for years on ST:TNG but they didn't have the money. So they "rewarded" Zimmerman for his work by allowing him to build Stellar Cartography, even though it was used for barely minutes for dialogue that could've been delivered anywhere.

stellar cartography sucked.it was just a colored brick backdrop wit 1970 graphics and a chair on a crane.

it as a waste of money.

the battle in TNG films sucked....

we want to to see deroutrageous.

idrek they gave bop again and again and again and again in all 9 films...

 

[Praetor]

I think the production is said to have regarded the bird of prey design as "sexy." Moreso than any other villain ship, apparently.

Erm, okay...

 

[Mike Farley]

So, watching the clip of the E-D's destruction something struck me. Everyone is evacuating the stardrive section to they can separate the ship before it goes ka-boom. Crusher is shown evacuating sickbay. Isn't sickbay in the saucer section? And isn't it generally one of the safest areas on the ship? Certainly safer than the random room we saw her duck into and hide under a mattrace in.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

The stardrive section has a sickbay, as referenced in "The Arsenal of Freedom". Crusher could have been evacuating that one, and with the saucer's sickbay already full of casualties she could have simply ducked into an empty room with a bed for her patient. We didn't know that the explosion would force the saucer to the surface, or afterwards if it would survive the landing. Crusher being on the dorsal surface may well have been really safe after all.

Mark

 

[Captain Fine]

My biggest gripe when I saw Generations the first time was the reuse of the STVI BOP explosion. It really took me out of the moment, seeing as that explosion had been so iconic, to reuse it was really WEAK.

 

[Praetor]

Amen to that, RegentWorf.

 

[Dream]

My biggest gripe when I saw Generations the first time was the reuse of the STVI BOP explosion. It really took me out of the moment, seeing as that explosion had been so iconic, to reuse it was really WEAK.

They probably spent most of the budget on Shatner and had nothing left for stuff like blowing up the BOP.