Why was Mulgrew so polarizing?

[Praetor]

I agree with her, as you know, but even aside from that, I think it's neat that she cared enough about the character to even worry about such things.

One of the things Kate was most concerned about was the double standard for women. She felt that Janeway couldn't be as casual about relationships as, say, Kirk.

She also--although she was less consistent in this--seemed to understand that Chakotay wouldn't wait forever, that it was rather absurd to expect a healthy man to wait celibate for 70 years. And that's something I always agreed with.

I tend to agree with her on all counts. I've always thought of Janeway as a more sensibility-evolved and female Kirk, myself. Kirk himself was stated to have started as a 'walking stack of books' which I drew comparison to Janeway's scientific and rather by-the-book background.

 

[neogothboy74]

Kate was adamantly against Janeway having a love life. She liked Braga's take on Janeway and felt it closer to what she'd done internally with the character than Jeri Taylor's take.

There are multiple interviews around seasons 4 & 5 in which she goes into it.

I remember those interviews. And while I know there are people that choose to be single, I think that in this case, that choice undermined her character for me. It felt odd that all previous and succeeding Captains could find a partner or mutiple partners, but Janeway mostly could not, or would not. I think many felt that Janeway was a symbol for all women - being the first proper woman Captain of a Trek series - and to infer to those that did see her in that way that to be in that position means that you can't have a love life while all the male Captains can seems an odd statement to make. I wasn't one that saw the Captain in that light, and I found it odd. Even if you take the stance that everyone on Voyager is under her in the chain of command, the story of them being stuck in the Delta Quadrant - I just felt that nobody could begrudge the Captain finding love in such a scenario. At the very least I think they should have had the reasoning behind her choices dealt with in an episode of the series. I think the lack of such an episode presents her as a damaged figure in a lot of peoples minds, if only on a subconcious level. I'm not saying she was, but that interpretation is out there; I've seen it.

One of the things I loved about DS9 was that the Captain was a father and their relationship was believable. The relationship with his dead wife, when presented was believable. They kept the often dreadful love of the week episodes to a minimum with Sisko, but he was also allowed a new parter in a complex relationship; and they were even married. This made him extremely human, real, and approachable; believable. Janeway by comparison in this regard plays as less realistic, and I never wanted that for her. Surely she had her reasons for the choices she made, I just think the character would have been better served if those reasons had been dramatized in some fashion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her father was a starship Captain. That could have had some bearing on the matter? The Janeway Girls were left behind on Earth while CAPTAIN Janeway shagged most of known space?

 

[JustKate]

I remember those interviews. And while I know there are people that choose to be single, I think that in this case, that choice undermined her character for me. It felt odd that all previous and succeeding Captains could find a partner or mutiple partners, but Janeway mostly could not, or would not. I think many felt that Janeway was a symbol for all women - being the first proper woman Captain of a Trek series - and to infer to those that did see her in that way that to be in that position means that you can't have a love life while all the male Captains can seems an odd statement to make. I wasn't one that saw the Captain in that light, and I found it odd. Even if you take the stance that everyone on Voyager is under her in the chain of command, the story of them being stuck in the Delta Quadrant - I just felt that nobody could begrudge the Captain finding love in such a scenario. At the very least I think they should have had the reasoning behind her choices dealt with in an episode of the series. I think the lack of such an episode presents her as a damaged figure in a lot of peoples minds, if only on a subconcious level. I'm not saying she was, but that interpretation is out there; I've seen it.

I don't think the male captains should, either - not with somebody under their command. You'll notice when Picard tried it, for example, he decided he couldn't make it work - I mean, you could really see how conflicted he was, thanks to Patrick Stewart.

Anybody who thinks the fact that she put her crew ahead of herself makes her "damaged" (and I know you aren't necessarily one of these, Neo) is simply underestimating her, and underestimating what a truly determined person is capable of when she is convinced she is doing the right thing. Since when is selfless devotion to a cause greater than yourself a sign of "damage"? Is every man who puts his love life on hold for a while because he's got little kids to raise alone "damaged"? Every woman who devotes herself to a dying husband or parent "damaged"? Every person who happens not to be married and believes that sex should only be part of marriage? Of course not. (Right? )

But I do think showing her making this decision - rather than just keeping us hanging around wondering...wondering...wondering - would have been great. It would have been mature. Picard had his "I can't command someone I'm in love with" moment; why not give a similar moment to Janeway? Or even several of those moments - they were trapped in the damn DQ together, so this would be something they'd have to cope with long-term.

I'll tell you why not: It would have required TPTB to realize that the audience wanted mature drama, too...and Voyager wasn't always very good at that. The plain fact is, the writers didn't want to resolve it in a mature way - any mature way, J/C together or J/C apart - because they preferred to keep us guessing. I hate it when shows do that on a long-term basis. (See the "Things I hate about Star Trek" thread in the general Trek forum for my little rant on this subject. )

 

[neogothboy74]

Anybody who thinks the fact that she put her crew ahead of herself makes her "damaged" (and I know you aren't necessarily one of these, Neo) is simply underestimating her

I'm not. And thank you for not assuming. Or at least I don't think she's damaged for not pursuing a relationship with someone serving under her, no pun intended. lol. I do think she was sometimes written as a crazy person though, but that's not what we're talking about at this moment.

But I do think showing her making this decision - rather than just keeping us hanging around wondering...wondering...wondering - would have been great. It would have been mature. Picard had his "I can't command someone I'm in love with" moment; why not give a similar moment to Janeway? Or even several of those moments - they were trapped in the damn DQ together, so this would be something they'd have to cope with long-term.

Exactly. I just think that this "ignore it and it will go away" approach hurt the perception of her character. And it didn't have to be that way. I think that the Janeway of Season 1 would have attacked this issue head-on, but in later seasons she was so...I can't find the words (I'm so tired), but there was a change in how she was written, and it wasn't for the better. I'm convinced that the fact that she was relatable at all by the end of the series has everything to do with the actress that played her, and nothing to do with the scripts that she was given.

 

[Praetor]

Most of you know that I subscribe vehemently to the 'no one in the chain of command' approach, like JustKate, for the reasons she lists.

I think one could also argue that Captain Janeway blamed herself almost exclusively for the crew's predicament, and, with occasional exceptions, as time went on she refused to 'allow' herself a personal life beyond the mission as a sense of symbolic and principle-based personal atonement.

Such guilt was pretty clearly stated in 'Night' and I think could go a long way to explain perceived and apparent inconsistencies with the way the character was written - she was essentially bottling everything up, and felt overwhelmed by the guilt she constantly struggled with and the pressure for their mission to get home to be as successful as possible.

As with most things VGR, it's a shame we have to assume this rather than having been shown it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

EMH: I understand your trepidation, but you're the Captain. You can't have a relationship with a member of your crew. They're all your subordinates. So, where does that leave you? The occasional dalliance with a passing alien? Voyager could be in the Delta quadrant for a very long time. A hologram may be the only logical alternative.

I have often wondered how often kathy did have occasional dalliances with passing aliens? I mean she is an idiot if she doesn't get a comparative biology feasibility workup from the doctor before anyone starts apply friction to sensitive areas if she doesn't want to end up with space herpes like Kim that one time we were told about.

So the Doctor knows completely her safe sex history in the DQ. Although after the fact if lust drew her into a situation devoid of precautions, future medicine should be able to keep her safe... Unless Janeway was erasing her appointments in his memory after each session to protect her modesty?

I wonder who else was erasing the Doctors memory? Because before Equinox, it's not like he'd even password protected himself. Moron.

 

[Praetor]

Those are all pretty good questions, Guy. I'm guessing Janeway at least had the opportunity for a Kirk-worthy amount of unseen dalliances. I just don't know whether she'd have let herself do it.

(The EMH appearing to not have any password protection or anything in 'Equinox' always irked me and felt stunt-ish to do what they did there.)

 

[JTKirk311]

I've asked myself that many times. I always really liked the character and the actress. I did think she was a little stiff and over the top in the first few episodes, but she settled in quickly, and she was great with the one liners! Something I am always on the lookout for. "Dismissed! That's a Starfleet expression for...Get Out!" But the polarization? After listening to gripes about her for years, and comparing the Janeway character to the other Captains. I think she was most like Kirk in personality. You just didn't mess with her and come away unscathed! And that strong a woman combined with her strong, low voice, maybe was to grating or unsatisfying too some people?

Me, I loved it!

 

[plague]

I think if there had been more bonkable aliens, that janeway would have been bonking them. It's easy to see how much more she's willing to let her guard down when she's dealing with people that aren't under her command.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So if Kathy had been in a sexier quadrant, it would have been harder for the lady to take the moral high ground with all that silly chastity and abstinence?

The GQ seemd over sexy if anything else. maybe that's why janeway took the long way home? meanwhile all Sulu did in the BQ was spend a year hunting Space farts.

 

[plague]

So if Kathy had been in a sexier quadrant, it would have been harder for the lady to take the moral high ground with all that silly chastity and abstinence?

The GQ seemd over sexy if anything else. maybe that's why janeway took the long way home?

Compared to the aliens Kirk interacted with, the Videans, Hirogen, Kazon, and species 8472 likely weren't bonkable. Sorry.

She seemed to warm up very fast to anyone that wasn't on her crew that showed her some attention. Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong?

 

[Guy Gardener]

She made all the boys pecan pie.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

^Honestly, I think the Janeway character was the most hurt by Jeri Taylor leaving the show to Brannon Braga.

Jeri Taylor (Tyler?) developed a wonderful backstory for Janeway and portrayed her as a strong, sexy, confident woman.

Remember when she and Chakotay had all the chemistry? It could have been like Mulder and Scully!

But once Seven of Nine became Janeway's pet project she stopped being that person and turned into granny Janeway. More interested in grooming Seven and hooking her up with Chakotay and resigning herself to boring holo-lovers.

She also became a mama to other characters and wouldn't even let Harry Kim lose his virginity to some alien babes of the week. Or she would tut-tut Belanna and Paris about their relationship. What the hell happened to her?

Braga seems to think a woman in command cannot also have an interesting love life. And he seemed to see Janeway as some sort of prude.

Contrast Janeway to Major Kira... who was fiesty and take charge and still able to have adult relationships. Janeway did no favors to the feminist movement, IMO.

You took the words right out of my mouth Robotech Master

 

[Guy Gardener]

It must have been while he was kissing you?

Meatloaf RULZ!!!

 

[The Grim Ghost]

So if Kathy had been in a sexier quadrant, it would have been harder for the lady to take the moral high ground with all that silly chastity and abstinence?

The GQ seemd over sexy if anything else. maybe that's why janeway took the long way home? meanwhile all Sulu did in the BQ was spend a year hunting Space farts.

I think the Beta quadrant has to win for the sexiest quadrant. It's full of Klingon Kleavage, right? Of course you have to dodge a few gaseous anomalies to get to 'em!

 

[JustKate]

It must have been while he was kissing you?

Meatloaf RULZ!!!

OK, so that was really funny, but if I find myself humming that damn song for hours on end, somebody's gonna pay.

 

[Ro_Laren]

I knew that people don't always care for the way Janeway was written, but I never thought that they had probs with Kate Mulgrew. I think she is one of the best actors to grace the Trek universe. She is very talented and seemed to commit to the role 100%

 

[exodus]

I knew that people don't always care for the way Janeway was written, but I never thought that they had probs with Kate Mulgrew. I think she is one of the best actors to grace the Trek universe. She is very talented and seemed to commit to the role 100%

I found Dawson to be slightly better than Mulgrew.
I agree with you that Mulgrew commited to the character 100%. However, I found that Dawson identified with Be'lanna right from the start. Right from "Caretaker" she knew what motivated Be'lanna & what would make her emotional. It was like she'd been playing her all her life. I think it took Mulgrew the first two season not to overact certain emotional reactions of Janeway. Not to play her as too soap opera-ish.

 

[kimc]

I think it took Mulgrew the first two season not to overact certain emotional reactions of Janeway. Not to play her as too soap opera-ish.

According to a Mulgrew interview the network suits were so nervous about having a woman captain that they didn't give her free reign to play Janeway until the episode "Death Wish" in Season 2.