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"All Our Yesterdays": Massive Contamination of the Timeline

Zeta

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
I was watching "All Our Yesterdays" (again) the other day and it struck me how royally screwed-up Sarpeidon's history must have become after sending the entire population into the past. If McCoy by himself could alter Earth's history in "City," what would be the impact of sending a billion people (for lack of a better estimate) into the past? Moreover, all those people would know their world's future was doomed. So, do they rally to develop spaceflight technology in the past so future generations can escape before the supernova? Would some use their future knowledge to dominate their time period? Would others develop new religions to try to make sense of it all? Or, do they all simply give up and get drunk? Either way, I have to believe the "Mr. Atoz" future would have ceased to exist after everyone was sent back.
 
Perhaps the 'preparation' those who traveled into the past got had something to do with it. In the episode, because our heros were not 'prepared', as Atoz wanted, they would die. Spock even became primitive, emotional, violent.

The guy who helped Kirk, who told us all this, seemed comfortable in his role in the past. I suspect these people might have space travel, they just wanted to stay on their own planet. Even if back in time.

All speculation, of course. :)
 
I don't see how the presence of a few hundred "time aliens" at any given year could be all that disruptive. Obviously, the Star Trek time travel logic doesn't allow for a "butterfly effect" where small disruptions lead to major alterations in outcome, even though logically that should be the case: if Captain Kirk goes back to 1234 AD and takes a deep breath, that will most probably prevent my birth which is the sum of many coincidences and split-second timings, yet in the Trek universe something damps out such effects. This something should be enough to damp out the involuntary alterations brought about by those hundred visitors, too, especially if they all merely wish to live out their lives without disturbing anybody.

That assumes that the entire population of billions did relocate into the past, of course. It's equally possible, if not more so, that the majority of the population did not - that they either actively committed suicide, or then merely decided not to have children in the remaining century or so. Just a small handful of people might have remained during those final few years to escape to the past.

Of course, even if people going to the past changed it radically, would we know? The final outcome would probably still be the same: sometime during the final century or so, these people would learn of the impending doom and would build the time machine, quite regardless of whether preceding "cycles" had done the same and massively disrupted the past. Indeed, the dictator Zor Khan's reign might be one such case of a time traveler taking advantage of his special knowledge and grabbing power: the fact that Zor used time travel as a means of punishment suggests that he had indeed mastered the use and consequences of the technology and was confident that there would be no backlash...

I don't see why the Library or the Librarian would have to disappear once all the remaining folks had been "evacuated". To the contrary, both the Library and the Librarian would be the work of a generation that had preceded the exodus, and this past generation would not disappear merely because their children decided to step into a time machine; nor would its achievements.

In the episode, because our heros were not 'prepared', as Atoz wanted, they would die.

This was discussed recently. It seems that our heroes may have been rather mistaken about this "preparation" thing and its effects - and that Mr. Atoz may have been deliberately misleading his victims with his mumbo-jumbo about preparation, a procedure that might merely involve mental reconditioning that prevents homesickness.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I like your thinking, Timo - perhaps it was only a small percentage of the planet who elected to go back in time. I think what I'm wrestling with is applying "The City on the Edge of Forever" temporal logic to the Sarpeidon situation. I have to believe that if a large number of people were sent into the past, at least one person would interact with a critical historical figure resulting in a radical change to the timeline. As the Federation essentially disappeared after McCoy's rescue of Edith Keeler, I assumed a similar incident would eradicate the Mr Atoz future.

Plum has a good point - perhaps the "preparation" they receive somehow prevents them from messing up historical events....
 
Timo, it's their knowledge. They come from the future... no doubt some will decide to be enterprising and use the knowledge to their advantage, which of course changes the future course of events.

Remember... just one person can change the course of history to affect the lives of millions.
 
They may not have been going back in time. They might have been shunting sideways in time to parallel time tracks which were not so far along a la Niven's Flight of the Horse series. The reason Kirk and Co. could come back was that the Atavachron was the vehicle and rooted to a stable timeline.
 
They may not have been going back in time. They might have been shunting sideways in time to parallel time tracks which were not so far along a la Niven's Flight of the Horse series. The reason Kirk and Co. could come back was that the Atavachron was the vehicle and rooted to a stable timeline.
Yeah, that's what I always figured, too. The time travel in All Our Yesterdays works differently than in all the other TOS episodes. But then again, the plausibility of time travel is hardly the only thing fishy about the logic of this episode.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of my absolute favorite Trek episodes ever. :D
 
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They may not have been going back in time. They might have been shunting sideways in time to parallel time tracks which were not so far along a la Niven's Flight of the Horse series. The reason Kirk and Co. could come back was that the Atavachron was the vehicle and rooted to a stable timeline.
Yeah, that's what I always figured, too. The time travel in All Our Yesterdays works differently than in all the other TOS episodes. But then again, the plausibility of time travel is hardly the only thing fishy about the logic of this episode.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of my absulte favorite Trek episodes ever. :D

It is very good, and a great one to leave the series on (if you're watching in stardate order, it comes after Turnabout Intruder).
 
They may not have been going back in time. They might have been shunting sideways in time to parallel time tracks which were not so far along a la Niven's Flight of the Horse series. The reason Kirk and Co. could come back was that the Atavachron was the vehicle and rooted to a stable timeline.
Yeah, that's what I always figured, too. The time travel in All Our Yesterdays works differently than in all the other TOS episodes. But then again, the plausibility of time travel is hardly the only thing fishy about the logic of this episode.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of my absulte favorite Trek episodes ever. :D

It is very good, and a great one to leave the series on (if you're watching in stardate order, it comes after Turnabout Intruder).
Yeah, personally I look at it as the finale to the series. I didn't know that about the stardates, though, which is a very cool thing.

By the way, you quoted my typo. Damnit. :shifty: (And now I'm quoting it, too!)
 
I don't know why, but its one of my favorites too despite the number of enormous implausibilities. The concept is very entertaining. The ornery old coot Mr. Atoz is a hoot. And we get an interesting mix of scenes (18th century, Ice Age, and modern Sarpeidon), as well as another (last) glimpse of Gary Seven's computer. I only wish we had a few moments on board the bridge as the Enterprise slips away from the supernova... a little chat between the trio and then curtain closes... on the series.

I like the idea of parallel universe travel... but I think it unlikely based on the way the technology is presented. In consideration of avoiding the influence of the timeline, you'd think that "being prepared" might involve some kind of selective memory wipe or adjustment related to the target time/place so that the traveler won't have any potentially harmful knowledge.
 
...It seems that our heroes may have been rather mistaken about this "preparation" thing and its effects - and that Mr. Atoz may have been deliberately misleading his victims with his mumbo-jumbo about preparation, a procedure that might merely involve mental reconditioning that prevents homesickness...

Just before returning to his own time, Kirk began to collapse. His "friend" said it was the effects of the machine and Kirk's not having been "prepared".
 
I'm always amused by the trouble people have with this.

Since time is linear, it's simple.

If the Sarpedions were sent back in time, what they did there had already happened.

Let's say in the year 2009, I'm sent back to 1776. Here's the flow:

1776: I arrive. I live out the rest of my life doing as I please, fucking women, kicking dogs, punching any goddamned butterfly I please.

1812: I die of consumption. Leaches prove ineffective.

1968: I'm born.

2009: I'm sent back to 1776.

What I did in 1776 has already happened before I'm born.


If it's a more recent trip, back to 1963 to save Kennedy, it's the same thing:

November 1963: I arrive, hang out on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository to kick Lee Harvey Oswald's ass Shatner-style, and watch Woody Harrelson's dad kill JFK from behind the fence on the Grassy Knoll.

August 1968: I'm born in Asstick, Indiana.

November 1969: After going nuts and murdering five people as the Zodiac Killer, my older self gets hit by a bus while crossing the street.

April 2009: I'm sent back to stop JFK from dying.


If the Sarpedions went back, what they did in the past is history. If one of them went off the reservation and blabbed about being from the future, he was written off as a crank. If one of them used knowledge of history to become rich, it was already a part of history.

It's done.

Joe, done
 
I'm always amused by the trouble people have with this.

Since time is linear, it's simple.

If the Sarpedions were sent back in time, what they did there had already happened...

If the Sarpedions went back, what they did in the past is history. If one of them went off the reservation and blabbed about being from the future, he was written off as a crank. If one of them used knowledge of history to become rich, it was already a part of history.

It's done.

Joe, done

Not true. As THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER shows, the past can be changed and have drastic effects on the future. A time traveler could actually destroy the world he comes from.

The people of Sarpedion could easilly have caused SOME changes to the timeline, but apparently not enough to erase the creation and use of the time portal.

We'd have no idea what the original timeline was like, since the Enterprise arrived AFTER the second-to-last person had gone back. All changes were in place, except for any caused by Mr. Atoz.

As we can see, NOTHING significant was changed by him either, since the facility was still there long enough for Kirk and the others to beam up and for the planet (along with the facility) to be destroyed.
 
The events of COTEOF were always a part of history. Edith was distracted while walking across the street at that specific moment because Kirk and co. were there.
 
Not true. As THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER shows, the past can be changed and have drastic effects on the future. A time traveler could actually destroy the world he comes from.
I'd say time travel works differently for the people of Sarpedion. Their time travel technology does not seem to work like the Guardian of Forever. As suggested before, maybe they don't (merely) travel back in time, but rather into a parallel universe, which can't affect the one they are coming from.
 
I'm always amused by the trouble people have with this.

Since time is linear, it's simple.

If the Sarpedions were sent back in time, what they did there had already happened...

If the Sarpedions went back, what they did in the past is history. If one of them went off the reservation and blabbed about being from the future, he was written off as a crank. If one of them used knowledge of history to become rich, it was already a part of history.

It's done.

Joe, done

Not true. As THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER shows, the past can be changed and have drastic effects on the future. A time traveler could actually destroy the world he comes from.

It looks that way for six minutes, and only because we're special and outside the timestream with the Guardian, but then history flows as it should when Kirk allows Edith Keeler to get the word "Dodge" imprinted backward on her forehead.

How long did the disruption last? Mere moments: McCoy jumps through, they figure out the change has happened, Uhura is frightened, they pop in, they pop out, they "get the Hell out of here," the background smoke pauses as they Transport, and we're done. Six minutes, tops.

And it always happened that way.

Kirk, as a child, looks through a book on the Depression and sees a crowd photograph. He has just looked at, without knowing it, a picture of himself and his future-friend Spock. It's already happened.

The people of Sarpedion could easilly have caused SOME changes to the timeline, but apparently not enough to erase the creation and use of the time portal.

We'd have no idea what the original timeline was like, since the Enterprise arrived AFTER the second-to-last person had gone back. All changes were in place, except for any caused by Mr. Atoz.

As we can see, NOTHING significant was changed by him either, since the facility was still there long enough for Kirk and the others to beam up and for the planet (along with the facility) to be destroyed.

The Sarpedion folks changed nothing. They go back and do exactly what they had already done.

Mr. Atoz's hick cousin, Bobby Dean Atoz, goes back a few hundred years, has an illegitimate child with the girl from the laundrymat, and that child's descendent, the famous Dr. Mona Breedswell, creates the Time Portal.

Bobby Dean already done did what he did, before he done did it.

Joe, diddly
 
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I like your thinking, Timo - perhaps it was only a small percentage of the planet who elected to go back in time. I think what I'm wrestling with is applying "The City on the Edge of Forever" temporal logic to the Sarpeidon situation. I have to believe that if a large number of people were sent into the past, at least one person would interact with a critical historical figure resulting in a radical change to the timeline. As the Federation essentially disappeared after McCoy's rescue of Edith Keeler, I assumed a similar incident would eradicate the Mr Atoz future.

Plum has a good point - perhaps the "preparation" they receive somehow prevents them from messing up historical events....

We don't know if the Federation disappeared or not. You can't even say that Earth isn't a member. The only thing you can say is that the Enterprise no longer exists in the form that the landing party recognizes.
 
I agree with Shatmandu: the time travel in episodes like COTEOF, All our yesterdays, Time's Arrow, Little Green Men, Paste Tense, First Contact and many others was always part of the timeline.
 
The events of COTEOF were always a part of history. Edith was distracted while walking across the street at that specific moment because Kirk and co. were there.


Not true.

At one point in the story, Edith did NOT die.

McCoy's arrival in the past (without Kirk and Spock) somehow led to her living and thus causing the change in history that apparently destroyed Earth and left the landing party stranded since there now was no Enterprise.

The story proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that history, in the Trek universe, CAN be changed by a time traveler.

We don't know if the Federation disappeared or not. You can't even say that Earth isn't a member. The only thing you can say is that the Enterprise no longer exists in the form that the landing party recognizes.

The Guardian said that after McCoy changed history, Earth and all that they knew was gone.

I agree with Shatmandu: the time travel in episodes like COTEOF, All our yesterdays, Time's Arrow, Little Green Men, Paste Tense, First Contact and many others was always part of the timeline.

I'll agree that at times there's the dreaded "predestination paradox" in some cases, but COTEOF plainly shows that in some cases a time traveler CAN change the past and the result can be total disaster.

And let's not forget an entire colony of people descended from the crew of DS9's Defiant who vanished when the events that led to their existence were altered by Odo.
 
Not true. As THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER shows, the past can be changed and have drastic effects on the future. A time traveler could actually destroy the world he comes from.

The people of Sarpedion could easilly have caused SOME changes to the timeline, but apparently not enough to erase the creation and use of the time portal.

We'd have no idea what the original timeline was like, since the Enterprise arrived AFTER the second-to-last person had gone back. All changes were in place, except for any caused by Mr. Atoz.

As we can see, NOTHING significant was changed by him either, since the facility was still there long enough for Kirk and the others to beam up and for the planet (along with the facility) to be destroyed.
Exactly. You don't want to send someone back in time and then disrupt the time line, possibly invalidating your existence. Heck, if you were that passe about it, why not send your best scientists to the past to develop space faring technologies so you can get everyone off the planet before the sun goes supernova?

So, I'd say that being "prepared" conditions you so that wouldn't take the memories of where you came from with you.
 
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