Question for Dominion War Space Battle Buffs

[Augustus]

Thanks for the clarification!!!

 

[Timo]

...Indeed, Kelsey Grammer's ship was supposed to have been retired years before the second movie where the Reliant appeared. So the implication was all along that the fate of the Soyuz class was unrelated to the general fate of the Miranda class.

In fact, the Soyuz wasn't specified in the script to be a Miranda variant at all. If the modelmakers had had more time and money, they would no doubt have constructed a ship that looked more like Kirk's TOS vessel, to justify the early retirement...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Strider]

Two Mirandas in a fleet of six hundred got blown away in the midst of heavy combat. That really doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the class in a two year long war. For all we know, the Sitak and the Majestic were tasked to guard the lead ship because Mirandas are built like a brick shithouse.

Also, my nerd heart would have leaped into my throat if we could see have seen multiple Defiants blasting away in one of the battle scenes. I don't see what the big deal is, you can storyboard that so the hero ship is still obvious. We always knew which X-Wing was Luke's didn't we?

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

If the modelmakers had had more time and money, they would no doubt have constructed a ship that looked more like Kirk's TOS vessel, to justify the early retirement...

Timo Saloniemi

But would it have had 1 nacelle or 2...?

 

[Timo]

I'd have preferred something that looked completely unlike either Constitution or Miranda, or any other known type from the movie or TNG era for that matter. So one of Franz Joseph's single-nacellers would have been quite welcome. But of course, something never seen before in any media, including FJ's manual, would have been even better...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

Two Mirandas in a fleet of six hundred got blown away in the midst of heavy combat. That really doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the class in a two year long war. For all we know, the Sitak and the Majestic were tasked to guard the lead ship because Mirandas are built like a brick shithouse.

I guess you can make the case that combat hasn't really changed since the 23d century (or, if you take ENT, the 22d), so there's no reason why upgraded Mirandas might not be able to take part. But at the same time, I still question the viability of a hundred year-old design--of course, a hundred years between trireme models isn't too much either.

Also, my nerd heart would have leaped into my throat if we could see have seen multiple Defiants blasting away in one of the battle scenes. I don't see what the big deal is, you can storyboard that so the hero ship is still obvious. We always knew which X-Wing was Luke's didn't we?

Hear hear.

 

[Thor Damar]

I'm loving the image I have in my head of a dozen Defiant Class ships swooping in on a Dominion Battleship and cutting it to shreds! That would have made the battle for Cardassia more like the titanic final battle that it was suppose to be.

 

[Praetor]

I'd have preferred something that looked completely unlike either Constitution or Miranda, or any other known type from the movie or TNG era for that matter. So one of Franz Joseph's single-nacellers would have been quite welcome. But of course, something never seen before in any media, including FJ's manual, would have been even better...

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't there a rumor that the original plan for that episode was to actually have it be a TOS-era Constitution class ship with a recreation of the TOS bridge and sets, and then that this was changed to a movie-era refit until we actually ended up getting a 'different' design altogether?

(I know about the one that they wanted Kirstie Alley to reprise Saavik as the Bozeman XO, but I'm guessing this came after they decided to stay out of the TOS era.)

 

[Myasishchev]

I'd have preferred something that looked completely unlike either Constitution or Miranda, or any other known type from the movie or TNG era for that matter. So one of Franz Joseph's single-nacellers would have been quite welcome. But of course, something never seen before in any media, including FJ's manual, would have been even better...

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't there a rumor that the original plan for that episode was to actually have it be a TOS-era Constitution class ship with a recreation of the TOS bridge and sets, and then that this was changed to a movie-era refit until we actually ended up getting a 'different' design altogether?

(I know about the one that they wanted Kirstie Alley to reprise Saavik as the Bozeman XO, but I'm guessing this came after they decided to stay out of the TOS era.)

Really? What if they hadn't been able to get Kelsey Grammar? John Ratzenberger? Woody Harrelson?

 

[dave_R_treker]

I thought the Bellerophon was actually named as Ross' flagship?

Not in any episode, no (although I'd guess Diane Carey's novelization might make that claim).

As far as we can tell, Ross was merely a onetime passenger aboard that ship, without any access to the bridge or anything.

Timo Saloniemi

Except the briefing room.

I'm pretty sure any admiral would have access to pretty much any bridge in the fleet.

And I'm sure an Admiral of Ross's stature would have access to just about any place on a star ship.

 

[Praetor]

(I know about the one that they wanted Kirstie Alley to reprise Saavik as the Bozeman XO, but I'm guessing this came after they decided to stay out of the TOS era.)

Really? What if they hadn't been able to get Kelsey Grammar? John Ratzenberger? Woody Harrelson?

I hope not...

Not in any episode, no (although I'd guess Diane Carey's novelization might make that claim).

As far as we can tell, Ross was merely a onetime passenger aboard that ship, without any access to the bridge or anything.

Timo Saloniemi

Except the briefing room.

I'm pretty sure any admiral would have access to pretty much any bridge in the fleet.

And I'm sure an Admiral of Ross's stature would have access to just about any place on a star ship.

I'd like to be clear that the nature of my remark was because we actually see Ross doing some work at the head of the briefing room table in the episode.

 

[Nightdiamond]

That' s what I tend to think of Mirandas-tough, large compliment of torpedoes, and pretty fast. Why do some fans, and fandom think they are weak and perform badly?

I also liked the scene when you can see a Galxy class ship destroy a large dominion cruiser, right after the Defiant is left alone. It's hard to see, but apparently they got em.

In fact, have you noticed it is the ONLY time you see any other starfleet vessel other than the Defiant, destroy a jem hadar ship? (Not counting a runabout)

And then there's the famous scene where the two Galaxy class ships took out the galor class ship, with double phasers..made fans, I think..

 

[Jono]

^ People think the Miranda's are weak because they were TNGs whipping boys. They were poorly armed transports or science vessels. Then in DS9 its was the Federation ship we saw explode the most.

We also saw the Valiant destroy Jem'Hadar ships.

 

[Nightdiamond]

^ People think the Miranda's are weak because they were TNGs whipping boys. They were poorly armed transports or science vessels. Then in DS9 its was the Federation ship we saw explode the most.

We also saw the Valiant destroy Jem'Hadar ships.

I think the reaction that the typical fan had when they saw the Mirandas in Call to Arms, where they were part of the task force, was, "oh, those ships too"...

Then when we saw that scene, where the two escorts got destroyed, caught everyone's attention- and that set off a lot of speculation - but the most common is that Mirandas were weaker, performed poorly, and were used as 'cannon fodder' for the enemy.

I like Strider's view, these ships were tough, and from what I saw, did a pretty good job of pushing through that enemy line, launching one spread of torpedoes after another.

The enemy ships had no choice but to get out of the way! It could have been that they had to wait until the right moment just to outflank them and catch them from the side..




Yes, but have you noticed that no other type of starfleet ship has been seen on screen destroying a jem hadar vessel?

We've seen the Defiant destroy many of them, and the Valiant is of the Defiant Class. In S.O.A, in the background, while the Defiant is trying to dodge enemy ships, we see what looks like a Galaxy class ship destroying a large Dominion Battlcruiser.

In one episode, a runabout destroys a jem hadar ship, but only because of the information Weyoun gives Odo..

Other than that, it's rather strange, but you never see any other type of Starfleet ship destroy a dominion ship, at least on screen..

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

you never see any other type of Starfleet ship destroy a dominion ship, at least on screen..

yeah, obviously there were plenty of other dominion ships destroyed off-screen in order for the war to make sense

 

[Cyke101]

To all those Miranda lovers... don't forget, that ship was thiiiiis close to being portrayed as "upside down" (or is it right side up?)

thank your lucky stars, as that would've surely influenced ship design after it

What's the big deal? In this alternate universe where the Miranda as we know it is upside down, we would all be used to that design, and "our" Miranda would be the wrong one.

All factors considered, the upside down Miranda would probably serve the same role anyway.

Also, my nerd heart would have leaped into my throat if we could see have seen multiple Defiants blasting away in one of the battle scenes. I don't see what the big deal is, you can storyboard that so the hero ship is still obvious. We always knew which X-Wing was Luke's didn't we?

We always knew because the camera always switched from fighter to cockpit and vice versa very rapidly. Switching from the Defiant bridge to other Defiant-class vessels (without the budget to show what the other crews look like) will no doubt get confusing. Groups of Danubes with two or three crewmen? No problem. Groups of Defiants, each with 8 people on the bridge? That's a budgetary, casting, and narrative nightmare. There's a reason why the Defiants in Call to Arms were really obscure.

 

[Jono]

^ If you had the USS Defiant with other Defiants you could just drop a line about the USS Defiant leading the others and when you out to external you can easily figure out who the USS Defiant was.

Or you show an external shot of a Defiant buying it and then switch to USS Defiant and Dax says, "The USS blah is gone."

There are a number of ways you can show more then one Defiant and not having to show individual bridges and crews.

On alternate Mirandas has anyone seen the updated Miranda for Star Trek Online? It's ok but I can't stand the missing segments in the saucer...its seems to make no sense design wise to have two holes in the saucer.

 

[Praetor]

The STO 'donut' ships bothered me a bit too. Perhaps the 'real' reason they have chunks missing in their hulls is for the addition of mission modules? Without them (if the mission modules aren't needed) perhaps it renders the ships lighter and more maneuverable.

 

[black_dranzer]

To all those Miranda lovers... don't forget, that ship was thiiiiis close to being portrayed as "upside down" (or is it right side up?)

thank your lucky stars, as that would've surely influenced ship design after it

What's the big deal? In this alternate universe where the Miranda as we know it is upside down, we would all be used to that design, and "our" Miranda would be the wrong one.

All factors considered, the upside down Miranda would probably serve the same role anyway.

Also, my nerd heart would have leaped into my throat if we could see have seen multiple Defiants blasting away in one of the battle scenes. I don't see what the big deal is, you can storyboard that so the hero ship is still obvious. We always knew which X-Wing was Luke's didn't we?

We always knew because the camera always switched from fighter to cockpit and vice versa very rapidly. Switching from the Defiant bridge to other Defiant-class vessels (without the budget to show what the other crews look like) will no doubt get confusing. Groups of Danubes with two or three crewmen? No problem. Groups of Defiants, each with 8 people on the bridge? That's a budgetary, casting, and narrative nightmare. There's a reason why the Defiants in Call to Arms were really obscure.

You could have the Defiant look slightly different from the others, since it is the prototype ship....of course, this would get messed up when they replace it with the Sao Paulo, but that's besides the point....honest

 

[Cyke101]

To all those Miranda lovers... don't forget, that ship was thiiiiis close to being portrayed as "upside down" (or is it right side up?)

thank your lucky stars, as that would've surely influenced ship design after it

What's the big deal? In this alternate universe where the Miranda as we know it is upside down, we would all be used to that design, and "our" Miranda would be the wrong one.

All factors considered, the upside down Miranda would probably serve the same role anyway.

Also, my nerd heart would have leaped into my throat if we could see have seen multiple Defiants blasting away in one of the battle scenes. I don't see what the big deal is, you can storyboard that so the hero ship is still obvious. We always knew which X-Wing was Luke's didn't we?

We always knew because the camera always switched from fighter to cockpit and vice versa very rapidly. Switching from the Defiant bridge to other Defiant-class vessels (without the budget to show what the other crews look like) will no doubt get confusing. Groups of Danubes with two or three crewmen? No problem. Groups of Defiants, each with 8 people on the bridge? That's a budgetary, casting, and narrative nightmare. There's a reason why the Defiants in Call to Arms were really obscure.

You could have the Defiant look slightly different from the others, since it is the prototype ship....of course, this would get messed up when they replace it with the Sao Paulo, but that's besides the point....honest

Oh, I wouldn't mind that. I'm just constantly amazed at the sheer amount of people who can tell the difference between the 2 ft, 4 ft, and 6 ft models of the Enterprise-D. I could never tell the difference to save my life, and the Galaxy class is my favorite ship!