A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.

While this may have been possible (and it is what we have to accept because it seems to be exactly what happened), I don't understand why they rebuilt it exactly like the original. DS9 was built upon 40 year-old Cardassian technology, it would have been nice if they decided to rebuild the new pylon as a more advanced and efficient Starfleet pylon. It would have added character to the station.

From an asthetic sense, it looks better for the station to match, though. And, given that I love the Cardassian design, I prefer it.

Also, from the out-of-universe perspective, that would just play hell with the stock footage.

Did we actually see any station exteriors at the start of 'The Quickening'? Maybe most of the work was being done while Bashir spent his time on the Teplan's planet - I seem to recall that episode having a time frame of a month or so.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.

While this may have been possible (and it is what we have to accept because it seems to be exactly what happened), I don't understand why they rebuilt it exactly like the original. DS9 was built upon 40 year-old Cardassian technology, it would have been nice if they decided to rebuild the new pylon as a more advanced and efficient Starfleet pylon. It would have added character to the station.

Well, the 'real' reason is that they probably didn't want to modify the miniature, and as DGCatAniSiri points out, they would have had to redo stock footage and so on, which given how reluctant they were to create new footage for the battles later on I'm sure they didn't want to do. Also, the station was built between 2346 and 2351 and the show started in 2369, so technically it's not that obsolete, especially if the TOS Enterprise is any indication.

Regarding technological quality, I think there's a line in the TM about having to 'match up' to the station's equipment, which IIRC according to the TM had already been 'improved' with Starfleet technology in various ways - among them life support, computers, and (get this) a more robust self-destruct system.

Innocence (*)

Agreed. It's fun for Tuvok's character moments, but that's about it. There was probably a clever idea buried in there somewhere, as a lot of people seemed to like 'Benjamin Buttin' but the science of it seems to defy logic.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Fine, I guess I'll just have to live with that beautifully ugly station the way it was.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

PS Is anyone else curious as to how one would give birth to a fully grown 80-year-old person?

This one drove me to distraction.

I liked Tim's work in it. I liked the little girl/old lady.

But my medical background just couldn't allow me to suspend disbelief enough...

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Fine, I guess I'll just have to live with that beautifully ugly station the way it was.

*hug*

It's okay. Have some kanar. It's no KoolAid, but drink enough and you may start to like it.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It's okay. Have some kanar. It's no KoolAid, but drink enough and you may start to like it.

Urgh, it's vile! It's so sickly and viscous and sinister. Just like the Cardassians.

Actually, after drinking a little more it's starting to grow on me. It's pretty good.

 

[Octavia]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

PS Is anyone else curious as to how one would give birth to a fully grown 80-year-old person?

This one drove me to distraction.

I liked Tim's work in it. I liked the little girl/old lady.

But my medical background just couldn't allow me to suspend disbelief enough...

Old people shrink.

Maybe the old people of that species shrink more than average?

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Innocence (*)

I kind of consider this episode to be fairly average; I definitely rate episodes diferrently than you do. I'd rate this ** at the lowest, just because I don't loathe it; I don't have a very strong feeling about it one way or the other. I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with it, I just don't think there's anything terribly good about it...which just makes it feel like it was made to fill up space, rather than a good idea was being explored - it was made to fill the quota of 26 episodes is my impression. Sometimes episodes like that are fine, actually - they beat the episodes that just outright suck, IMO.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yeah, Innocence is not my fav either, but it's worth more than *. I'd say **½ maybe.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

PS Is anyone else curious as to how one would give birth to a fully grown 80-year-old person?

Mindy and Mork had a kid who appeared to be Human in his early 60s who hatched out of a huge honking Egg, which I have lovely memories of Mindy balancing atop of knitting.

This episode was shit.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Innocence (*)

I kind of consider this episode to be fairly average; I definitely rate episodes diferrently than you do. I'd rate this ** at the lowest, just because I don't loathe it; I don't have a very strong feeling about it one way or the other.

Yeah, Innocence is not my fav either, but it's worth more than *. I'd say **½ maybe.

I gave it two stars but I deducted a star because it completely swept Deadlock's damage and fuel supply issues under the rug.

Mindy and Mork had a kid who appeared to be Human in his early 60s who hatched out of a huge honking Egg, which I have lovely memories of Mindy balancing atop of knitting.

Did they show Mork or Mindy laying the egg? Because if they did I really hope they have that scene on YouTube!

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I gave it two stars but I deducted a star because it completely swept Deadlock's damage and fuel supply issues under the rug.

Deadlock: Stardate 49548.7

Innocence: Stardate 49578.2

So there was no time to repair damages or find fuel supplies during the time in the middle?

And why would these issues be worth telling in the first place in Innocence? What would they add to the storyline? What possible value would they have?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock: Stardate 49548.7

Innocence: Stardate 49578.2

So there was no time to repair damages or find fuel supplies during the time in the middle?

Stardates are worthless and make no sense, and this isn't just my opinion of the matter, this is something that the creators and writers say themselves. They often don't progress in episode order, and there is even inconsistencies about the placement of stardates, such as Tasha Yar being alive on a stardate after the one she died on, and Sisko mentioning the recent Borg attack on a stardate before the stardate we are told in First Contact.

I do not pay any attention to stardates and I would suggest that nobody should.

And why would these issues be worth telling in the first place in Innocence? What would they add to the storyline? What possible value would they have?

Because it would make the universe feel more real, it would help me to grow attached to this ship and crew. If this is a miracle ship which can just fix itself in a matter of days then why should I bother to care if it is severely damaged in the future? It's not like as if it matters, Voyager could lose half the saucer section and it would be reattached by the next episode. The ship is a character as much as any of the actors, it deserves to be treated that way.

I don't know if you watched much of Enterprise, but one of the reasons why I prefer that series to Voyager is because when that ship was seriously damaged it meant something. They hit a mine in the second season and in the next episode they seek out a repair station to fix the damage. The ship is torn to pieces in the Xindi arc and it stays that way until they get back to Earth in the next season. And in BSG the ship gets worse as the series goes on until the end of the series where the characters are forced to accept that it is reaching the end of its life. There is a fly-past of the ship in the finale where you can still see the damage on the flight-pod where it was hit in the pilot. I fell in love with that ship and it it caused an emotional reaction for me to see it falling apart near the end.

In Innocence they make contact with the alien-of-the-week because they are looking for polyferanide, or something. Why not go there looking for some anti-matter which they nearly depleted in Deadlock? They wouldn't have had to change the plot all that much, but it would have been rewarding for viewers who watch the show every week. All it would take is a few throwaway lines and it would have helped me feel satisfied as a viewer, but they didn't and instead I feel cheated.

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yeah, Innocence is not my fav either, but it's worth more than *. I'd say **½ maybe.

I'd give it the lowest possible rating too because it is flat-out impossible to suspend disbelief here. Science fiction is not the same genre as fantasy. The premise of this episode is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Stardates are worthless and make no sense, and this isn't just my opinion of the matter, this is something that the creators and writers say themselves.

So it is entirely possible scenario that enough time could have passed for them to make the necessary repairs. But obviously if you don't wanna see it that way, no one can force you, and you may continue crying about the inconsistencies.

Because it would make the universe feel more real, it would help me to grow attached to this ship and crew. If this is a miracle ship which can just fix itself in a matter of days then why should I bother to care if it is severely damaged in the future?

Is this really important to you personally or because you have read a comment like this on Trek boards or Star Trek Magazine?

Many who like Voyager were extremely attached to the crew without seeing the ship being beaten a crap out or what color its warp nacelles were. Of course no one cannot say what would do the trick for you, and no one should, but in the end of the day this is a Trek show, not Battle Star Galactica.

 

[apenpaap]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock: Stardate 49548.7

Innocence: Stardate 49578.2

So there was no time to repair damages or find fuel supplies during the time in the middle?

Stardates are worthless and make no sense, and this isn't just my opinion of the matter, this is something that the creators and writers say themselves. They often don't progress in episode order, and there is even inconsistencies about the placement of stardates, such as Tasha Yar being alive on a stardate after the one she died on, and Sisko mentioning the recent Borg attack on a stardate before the stardate we are told in First Contact.

I do not pay any attention to stardates and I would suggest that nobody should.

And why would these issues be worth telling in the first place in Innocence? What would they add to the storyline? What possible value would they have?

Because it would make the universe feel more real, it would help me to grow attached to this ship and crew. If this is a miracle ship which can just fix itself in a matter of days then why should I bother to care if it is severely damaged in the future? It's not like as if it matters, Voyager could lose half the saucer section and it would be reattached by the next episode. The ship is a character as much as any of the actors, it deserves to be treated that way.

I don't know if you watched much of Enterprise, but one of the reasons why I prefer that series to Voyager is because when that ship was seriously damaged it meant something. They hit a mine in the second season and in the next episode they seek out a repair station to fix the damage. The ship is torn to pieces in the Xindi arc and it stays that way until they get back to Earth in the next season. And in BSG the ship gets worse as the series goes on until the end of the series where the characters are forced to accept that it is reaching the end of its life. There is a fly-past of the ship in the finale where you can still see the damage on the flight-pod where it was hit in the pilot. I fell in love with that ship and it it caused an emotional reaction for me to see it falling apart near the end.

In Innocence they make contact with the alien-of-the-week because they are looking for polyferanide, or something. Why not go there looking for some anti-matter which they nearly depleted in Deadlock? They wouldn't have had to change the plot all that much, but it would have been rewarding for viewers who watch the show every week. All it would take is a few throwaway lines and it would have helped me feel satisfied as a viewer, but they didn't and instead I feel cheated.

Yeah, it's one of the few things I really don't like in Voyager.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock: Stardate 49548.7

Innocence: Stardate 49578.2

So there was no time to repair damages or find fuel supplies during the time in the middle?

Stardates are worthless and make no sense, and this isn't just my opinion of the matter, this is something that the creators and writers say themselves. They often don't progress in episode order, and there is even inconsistencies about the placement of stardates, such as Tasha Yar being alive on a stardate after the one she died on, and Sisko mentioning the recent Borg attack on a stardate before the stardate we are told in First Contact.

I do not pay any attention to stardates and I would suggest that nobody should.

And why would these issues be worth telling in the first place in Innocence? What would they add to the storyline? What possible value would they have?

Because it would make the universe feel more real, it would help me to grow attached to this ship and crew. If this is a miracle ship which can just fix itself in a matter of days then why should I bother to care if it is severely damaged in the future? It's not like as if it matters, Voyager could lose half the saucer section and it would be reattached by the next episode. The ship is a character as much as any of the actors, it deserves to be treated that way.

I don't know if you watched much of Enterprise, but one of the reasons why I prefer that series to Voyager is because when that ship was seriously damaged it meant something. They hit a mine in the second season and in the next episode they seek out a repair station to fix the damage. The ship is torn to pieces in the Xindi arc and it stays that way until they get back to Earth in the next season. And in BSG the ship gets worse as the series goes on until the end of the series where the characters are forced to accept that it is reaching the end of its life. There is a fly-past of the ship in the finale where you can still see the damage on the flight-pod where it was hit in the pilot. I fell in love with that ship and it it caused an emotional reaction for me to see it falling apart near the end.

In Innocence they make contact with the alien-of-the-week because they are looking for polyferanide, or something. Why not go there looking for some anti-matter which they nearly depleted in Deadlock? They wouldn't have had to change the plot all that much, but it would have been rewarding for viewers who watch the show every week. All it would take is a few throwaway lines and it would have helped me feel satisfied as a viewer, but they didn't and instead I feel cheated.

I agree with everything you said here. I've never paid attention to the stardates for the reasons you name here, and I don't really understand those that do. And the continuity of Enterprise was one of the things that I really liked, even during the first 2 seasons, which were mostly terrible.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

So it is entirely possible scenario that enough time could have passed for them to make the necessary repairs. But obviously if you don't wanna see it that way, no one can force you, and you may continue crying about the inconsistencies.

This episode could also take place five years after the previous episode and in that length of time which we didn't witness Paris could have died, they could have turned the mess hall into a casino, and Chakotay could have had a sex-change operation. Would that have been dramatically acceptable to you just because they could have done those things within that time-frame?

Is this really important to you personally or because you have read a comment like this on Trek boards or Star Trek Magazine?

Believe it or not, I am fully capable of thinking for myself and formulating my own opinions and I have been since I was 2 years old.

Many who like Voyager were extremely attached to the crew without seeing the ship being beaten a crap out or what color its warp nacelles were. Of course no one cannot say what would do the trick for you, and no one should, but in the end of the day this is a Trek show, not Battle Star Galactica.

And I'm not saying that it should be like Battlestar Galactica, I don't particularly want an episode of Star Trek where one of the characters loses all hope and shoots themselves in the head, I don't want an episode of Star Trek where the human race resorts to strapping explosives to themselves and performing a suicide bombing. What I want is for Star Trek to make sense within its own predefined rules.

In earlier episodes they made a big deal out of how they had to ration supplies because they are going to run out. In The Cloud Chakotay made a big deal about them only having 38 torpedoes and no way to replaces them once they are gone. In Learning Curve they make a big deal out of the fact that they only have a set number of replacement bio-neural gel-packs. All throughout the show they are talking about conserving energy by rationing replicator use. When the show starts to blatantly ignore its own internal logic by having the ship nearly be destroyed and out of energy in one episode and having everything back to normal next week then it is a problem for me. You don't have a problem with that? Fine, but I do.

What do they lose by having Voyager look a little more damaged as time goes by? What do they lose by having a few lines in an episode which elaborates upon what happened the previous week? Would it upset you as a viewer if it happened? If so, then why?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And the continuity of Enterprise was one of the things that I really liked, even during the first 2 seasons, which were mostly terrible.

It is one of the only good things about Enterprise in those early years. I remember towards the end of the first season they had a number of episodes where they heading toward Risa and kept getting side-tracked, but eventually they make it there. Little things like that helped me feel more involved with the show.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

In earlier episodes they made a big deal out of how they had to ration supplies because they are going to run out. In The Cloud Chakotay made a big deal about them only having 38 torpedoes and no way to replaces them once they are gone. In Learning Curve they make a big deal out of the fact that they only have a set number of replacement bio-neural gel-packs. All throughout the show they are talking about conserving energy by rationing replicator use. When the show starts to blatantly ignore its own internal logic by having the ship nearly be destroyed and out of energy in one episode and having everything back to normal next week then it is a problem for me. You don't have a problem with that? Fine, but I do.

Exactly. In the beginning we were basically promised that these things would matter, which people that were paying attention and had a memory had every reason to believe...because those early statements made sense. And then those kinds of worries were discarded with no explanation. We were basically told to look the other way and pretend that everything was ok because the writers couldn't be bothered to deal with the mess they'd made. It was insulting. The writers showed contempt for the audience. And the sad thing is that many audience members didn't notice or care...and even now serve as apologists for the writers that treated them in such a fashion. It hurts my head.

And the continuity of Enterprise was one of the things that I really liked, even during the first 2 seasons, which were mostly terrible.

It is one of the only good things about Enterprise in those early years. I remember towards the end of the first season they had a number of episodes where they heading toward Risa and kept getting side-tracked, but eventually they make it there. Little things like that helped me feel more involved with the show.

Exactly. Until late Season 2 the only saving grace of the series was the inter-series continuity. In many ways it didn't even feel like Star Trek until Season 4 when all the pieces started falling into place (the Vulcan arc remains a personal favorite). Thankfully the series had already improved quality wise; especially in the grand Season 3 Xindi Arc. It was definitely a flawed and oddly paced series, but I enjoyed those final 2 seasons more than almost anything Voyager produced in it's entire run.