Probert's Ambassador class concept

[Timo]

I think they do show the whole thing at one point at least, side by side with the D.

We see the Excalibur twice, and both instances are direct reuses of "Yesterday's Enterprise" footage. At the end of "Redemption pt I", the 23-ship fleet is shown departing - by pasting together footage of four ships, including a stern shot of the E-C. And in the middle of "Redemption pt II", the Excalibur is shown next to the E-D, and it's a shot of the E-D and E-C together reused.

So the Excalibur seems to represent the Mk I of that ship class, if Yamaguchi of DS9 "Emissary" and Zhukov of, uh, was it "Second Chances" fame are Mk II...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

I think they do show the whole thing at one point at least, side by side with the D.

We see the Excalibur twice, and both instances are direct reuses of "Yesterday's Enterprise" footage. At the end of "Redemption pt I", the 23-ship fleet is shown departing - by pasting together footage of four ships, including a stern shot of the E-C. And in the middle of "Redemption pt II", the Excalibur is shown next to the E-D, and it's a shot of the E-D and E-C together reused.

So the Excalibur seems to represent the Mk I of that ship class, if Yamaguchi of DS9 "Emissary" and Zhukov of, uh, was it "Second Chances" fame are Mk II...

Timo Saloniemi

Ah, I knew you'd know.

As to the idea of inserting the original Probert design in place of what we got, I rather hope not. I personally hate that kind of revisionist history - at least where there's no real reason for it. Remastering is one thing, but modifying is another, and it's a slippery slope. (See the Star Wars OT and its oh-so-many incarnations. And that's a franchise where the creator has retained direct control. ) But I digress.

Maybe the Probert design could be plugged in for another non-descript ship that might be more fitting? An umpteenth unnamed Excelsior or Oberth perhaps? At the very least, I'd like to see one or two of those replaced with something else. (Anything else.) And I'd still like a Cheyenne-class Pegasus.)

 

[Tomalak]

I don't think we need another Starfleet design. Maybe it would be nice to see a greater variety of existing designs instead of the Excelsior/Miranda/Stock stock footage, and some new alien ships of the week instead of reuses of the Merchantman, Batris and Talarian types. Basically like they did on TOS-R.

Still, better not get ahead of ourselves. Let's wait for CBS to find the money first.

 

[Praetor]

I don't think we need another Starfleet design. Maybe it would be nice to see a greater variety of existing designs instead of the Excelsior/Miranda/Stock stock footage, and some new alien ships of the week instead of reuses of the Merchantman, Batris and Talarian types. Basically like they did on TOS-R.

Oh, agreed. There were kitbashes from the Wolf 359 scene that could be plugged in for Starfleet ships too without creating another design. In some cases, where the ship-of-the-week models were actually changed to the extent of being relatively unrecognizable for reuse, I'd be okay with leaving them alone, but others, where it's clearly the same ship - those would be good to redo. And changing the angles on the stock shots is certainly a must.

And fixing that crappy fake exterior mockup for the Type-7 shuttle they used, and fixing when the Type-6 interior is used with the Type-7 exterior, among many other inconsistencies...

Still, better not get ahead of ourselves. Let's wait for CBS to find the money first.

And hope they hear us.

 

[Praetor]

Not to double-post, but I'd forgotten this appearance in 'Data's Day,' which I don't think is a reuse of 'Yesterday's Enterprise'...

It could be a reuse from another episode that escapes me...

 

[Tomalak]

That's a nice shot. It's not the Enterprise-C, most obviously because it has red rather than blue impulse exhaust. That was the first appearance of the modified model - I think that shot was reused in Redemption, along with those Timo mentioned, and possibly some new ones. The only other episode it appeared in was Emissary as far as I know.

 

[lennier1]

For some reason I still remember the picture of some Refit Ambassador docked to one of DS9´s pylons.

 

[miraclefan]

Still, better not get ahead of ourselves. Let's wait for CBS to find the money first.

^They could always ask for money from the GOV'MENT! that seams to be the ''in'' thing to do now.(I'm not kidding)

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe the Probert design could be plugged in for another non-descript ship that might be more fitting? An umpteenth unnamed Excelsior or Oberth perhaps? At the very least, I'd like to see one or two of those replaced with something else. (Anything else.) And I'd still like a Cheyenne-class Pegasus.)

Some time ago I wrote a Starship Construction Timeline, based entirely on ship registries. I originally created it so that I could guess where the conjectural Starfleet classes fit in design-wise (which I then wrote another essay about), but the timeline also gives some interesting information on its own. For instance, even though the U.S.S. Excelsior's registry is NCC-2000, and there are a few other Excelsior class ships with a low 2XXX registry (and getting as high as 1XXXX in TNG), most of the Excelsiors that show up in DS9 have gigantic 4XXXX registries, even higher than the Ambassador class's 2XXXX. So according to the timeline, the Excelsior class was created in the 2280's, then died out when the Ambassador class was built, only to be mass-produced again later while the Ambassador class died out! As Johnny Cochran once said, "This does not make sense!" The same goes for the Miranda class. There were a few of them during the movie era with 1XXX registries, and then all of a sudden in DS9 they have 3XXXX registries. Huh? And don't even get me started with the Oberth class...

Anyway, one thing my timeline shows is that the Renaissance class is actually the intermediate step between the Excelsior class and the Galaxy class (IMHO). I alsways though Probert's Ambassador would have made a good candidate for the Renaissance class.

 

[Praetor]

Some time ago I wrote a Starship Construction Timeline, based entirely on ship registries. I originally created it so that I could guess where the conjectural Starfleet classes fit in design-wise (which I then wrote another essay about), but the timeline also gives some interesting information on its own.

You and I should compare notes. I had done a similar chart/graph to compute likely dates for commission numbers based on the few known ones, but hadn't really tried to account for everything.

For instance, even though the U.S.S. Excelsior's registry is NCC-2000, and there are a few other Excelsior class ships with a low 2XXX registry (and getting as high as 1XXXX in TNG), most of the Excelsiors that show up in DS9 have gigantic 4XXXX registries, even higher than the Ambassador class's 2XXXX. So according to the timeline, the Excelsior class was created in the 2280's, then died out when the Ambassador class was built, only to be mass-produced again later while the Ambassador class died out! As Johnny Cochran once said, "This does not make sense!"

"If the glove doesn't fit, then you must acquit," my friend. The only logical conclusion is that the Ambassador was not the Excelsior's replacement.

The same goes for the Miranda class. There were a few of them during the movie era with 1XXX registries, and then all of a sudden in DS9 they have 3XXXX registries. Huh? And don't even get me started with the Oberth class...

Now the longevity of those two is quite bizarre. I also have a theory or two on that.

Anyway, one thing my timeline shows is that the Renaissance class is actually the intermediate step between the Excelsior class and the Galaxy class (IMHO). I alsways though Probert's Ambassador would have made a good candidate for the Renaissance class.

That's an interesting, and IMO, good idea. We haven't seen the Renaissance at all. (Well, except a DC TNG comic which wasn't canon and depicted it as a Voyager-style secondary hull with a circular saucer.)

 

[Dukhat]

Agreed on all points. I'm actually going to post my timeline in the Trek Tech section (now that I can upload text files to the upload site I use).

 

[Tomalak]

I don't think late registries on older ships is a massive problem. They could have been "mothballed" as per the TUC Khitomer treaty, only to be recommissioned later on. The Cardassian wars?

We know of two "hero" ships have been renamed - Enterprise-A from Yorktown/Ti-Ho/whatever, and the second Defiant from Sao Paulo. It's not stretching credibility to think the same might have happened with other ships.

Alternatively, two very successful designs were simply constructed for a long time. The hulls may be unchanged, but the technology would have evolved. The illuminated blue nacelles on the DS9 Mirandas suggests as much.

 

[Timo]

Anyway, one thing my timeline shows is that the Renaissance class is actually the intermediate step between the Excelsior class and the Galaxy class (IMHO). I alsways though Probert's Ambassador would have made a good candidate for the Renaissance class.

I'm sort of hesistant to do that, because the Aries of Renaissance class was described as "a relatively insignificant ship in an obscure corner of the galaxy"...

Indeed, if anything, I'd prefer to assign the Renaissance identity to the tiny Centaur that Captain Reynolds skippered in DS9: the registry range is a sufficiently good match at least. If a "transitional type" identity is needed for Probert's ship in the NCC-4XXXX range, how about Istanbul, which had thousands aboard in "Schitzoid Man"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

I don't think late registries on older ships is a massive problem. They could have been "mothballed" as per the TUC Khitomer treaty, only to be recommissioned later on. The Cardassian wars?

We know of two "hero" ships have been renamed - Enterprise-A from Yorktown/Ti-Ho/whatever, and the second Defiant from Sao Paulo. It's not stretching credibility to think the same might have happened with other ships.

Alternatively, two very successful designs were simply constructed for a long time. The hulls may be unchanged, but the technology would have evolved. The illuminated blue nacelles on the DS9 Mirandas suggests as much.

Myasishchev brought up in another thread the real world case of the B-52, which was built in massive numbers and has been continually upgraded for years. So yeah, I don't think that sort of thing is a big deal. I just like variety.

Anyway, one thing my timeline shows is that the Renaissance class is actually the intermediate step between the Excelsior class and the Galaxy class (IMHO). I alsways though Probert's Ambassador would have made a good candidate for the Renaissance class.

I'm sort of hesistant to do that, because the Aries of Renaissance class was described as "a relatively insignificant ship in an obscure corner of the galaxy"...

Indeed, if anything, I'd prefer to assign the Renaissance identity to the tiny Centaur that Captain Reynolds skippered in DS9: the registry range is a sufficiently good match at least.

Ah, I'd forgotten that particular reference. And I agree, the Centaur as a Renaissance class ship does seem a good fit.

If a "transitional type" identity is needed for Probert's ship in the NCC-4XXXX range, how about Istanbul, which had thousands aboard in "Schitzoid Man"?

Timo Saloniemi

Wasn't the Istanbul supposed to be a transport, or was that not expressly mentioned in dialog?

 

[Dukhat]

Anyway, one thing my timeline shows is that the Renaissance class is actually the intermediate step between the Excelsior class and the Galaxy class (IMHO). I alsways though Probert's Ambassador would have made a good candidate for the Renaissance class.

I'm sort of hesistant to do that, because the Aries of Renaissance class was described as "a relatively insignificant ship in an obscure corner of the galaxy"...

Yes, but you're missing the context. Picard was comparing being the captain of the Aries to being the first officer of the Enterprise-D. Of course by that time the Aries would be insignificant in comparison to the Galaxy class. And the fact that the Aries would be on a deep space mission implies that the ship is relatively large and well-equipped, so it really wouldn't be "insignificant" in that respect.

Indeed, if anything, I'd prefer to assign the Renaissance identity to the tiny Centaur that Captain Reynolds skippered in DS9: the registry range is a sufficiently good match at least.

Perhaps, but I'm going under the assumption that those DS9 kitbashes were never meant to be taken seriously, and certainly not representative of the official conjectural classes.

If a "transitional type" identity is needed for Probert's ship in the NCC-4XXXX range, how about Istanbul, which had thousands aboard in "Schitzoid Man"?

The Istanbul had thousands aboard because it was a colony ship, and those thousands of people were colonists, not crew. So I don't really see a colony ship as the intermediate step between the Excelsior and the Galaxy.

 

[CharlieZardoz]

I say it fits for either the Renaissance or the Korolev classes though the latter might be too new for such a design (59621 suggests Galaxy era). Those are the only two conjectural classes that suggest a large enough ship for deep space missions, battles etc. It would make sense one can surmise the Ambassador class was a primitive first step, then Starfleet build a lot of Excelsiors as a tried and true "middle ground" then went back to the idea and upgraded the design as the Renaissance class. I'd personally love to see someone render a USS Aries with the Probert design.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Personally I prefer the canon Ambassador (it's very near the top of my "favourite Trek ships" list), this one really doesn't do it for me.

 

[Maurice]

Guys... necro-thread. Rotting for six years. Let it R.I.P.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Guys... necro-thread. Rotting for six years. Let it R.I.P.

I often question that logic and this is one of those times. An old thread seen by new eyes may be very appealing. Is it better to start a new one than to resurrect an existing one. Someone had to do some research to dig it up.

 

[Dukhat]

Guys... necro-thread. Rotting for six years. Let it R.I.P.

I often question that logic and this is one of those times. An old thread seen by new eyes may be very appealing. Is it better to start a new one than to resurrect an existing one. Someone had to do some research to dig it up.

Agreed. If it was some newbie reviving a years-old thread just to post some dumb comment, that's different. But Charlie's posts invite discussion, as his Nebula class post in the Tech forum shows. (Plus it doesn't hurt that I like talking about starships )