Do You Prefer the 'All Good Things' Future?

[Thor Damar]

^ I have a theory for the future Klingons, it involves a certain race of shape changing aliens from Beyond The Wormhole!

(Also, thank you for the kind compliment JustKate!)

 

[JustKate]

^ Well, I meant it, of course, but I was mostly trying to ensure that when I said "you make a good point," it didn't sound as though I meant "this is one of the rare times you make a good point" - because I didn't mean that at all.

As for your theory, oooh, I kind of like it! Order, discipline, acting with deliberation...that does sound a lot more like you-know-who than like Klingons. Actually, it sounds a lot more like the Cardassians or the Romulans...

 

[Praetor]

I voted 'neither' and here's why.

1) The conquest of the RSE: this does not sit well with me at all. One of the most interesting and iconic races reduced to the status of je'pwhi, (sic)this is an utter travesty and I cannot believe that it would actually happen.

My people and I thank you, noble Damar.

Which brings me to:

2) That the KE would have been the dominant military superpower in both Quadrants. How many times have the Klingons wasted ships and resources in their blood feuds and civil wars and constant wars with every power that looks at them funny and yet they still end up either conquering the RSE or threatening the UFP. It seems that neither the Dominion or the Borg can stop the all mighty Klingons.

It's hard for me to imagine the Klingon Empire being this disciplined and deliberate. I would have said this is something they are just not very good at.

I agree. I have this theory about the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons.

• The Federation doesn't conquer; it 'subverts' most of its adversaries through diplomacy, trade, treaties, and all that good cultural absorption groupthink kind of stuff under the auspices of 'the greater good' and everyone playing nice.

• The Klingons are driven to conquer; they enjoy it, and believe it is the right of the strong to dominate and 'protect' the weak from themselves; in this they are pathetically predictable.

• The Romulans on the other hand are somewhere in between: they don't fight if they can think of a better way, but they do channel their internal rages into it so that when they do, they do so quickly, brutally, and suddenly - so fast that you won't know they were coming; they rely on being enigmatic.

I think that the only reason that the Klingon-Federation war of the 23rd century didn't happen was because the Romulans entered the mix. First they sided with the Klingons, because the Federation was their old enemy. Then that soured, and they played the field as long as they could until the F/K Cold War came to a head with Praxis and allowed a 'forced' peace. This forced peace threatened the Romulans, who, because of various circumstances, ended up withdrawing again.

So then what do we see? This era of detente allows for cultural exchange between the Federation and Klingons, which allows a friendship to form and them to later bond partly because of certain Starfleet officers' direct involvement in Klingon politics and uniting against 'common enemies.' In 'Yesterday's Enterprise' we see a timeline where, without a key step in the Federation/Klingon detente - the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C - there is war. (Even with Romulan interference.)

My point is that the philosophies of the Federation, Romulan, and even Cardassian (who I haven't totally figured out but I'll leave that to better minds ) are largely reconcilable, but none of them are totally reconcilable with the philosophy of the Klingon Empire.

Natural progression suggests that no matter what friendships and detente occur between them, they will always be forced unless there is a fundamental change in either philosophy.

Failing that, war between the Klingons and Federation (and any allies that tag along ) is largely an inevitability.

My $0.02.

^ I have a theory for the future Klingons, it involves a certain race of shape changing aliens from Beyond The Wormhole!

Now that would be interesting!!

 

[Thor Damar]

^ Well put Honored Praetor.

I'm afraid that I cannot do justice to Cardassian philosophy but I do imagine it to be somewhat similar to the Romulans in that they will use deceit and subterfuge to achieve their goals. However, the Cardassians are an aggressive and bold people with a deep sense of pride which means that they are more likely to engage in direct conflict in order to gain resources and respect.
Under the old ideology of the late Cardassian Union the ends DID justify the means, after all if victory is all that counts then how one achieves it does not matter.

As for the shape shifters? All this has happened before (Gen Martok) and all this will happen again!

 

[Praetor]

I have often thought that pride was perhaps the Cardassians greatest strength and weakness. Perhaps, in the era of devastation following the Dominion War, the Cardassians Union can rebuild with new awareness and join the Federation? I always envisioned the Cardassians joining before the Romulans for some reason. Maybe that's where the Cardassians were in the 'AGT' timeline? Maybe that's where they are in the regular one too.

 

[Thor Damar]

I have often thought that pride was perhaps the Cardassians greatest strength and weakness. Perhaps, in the era of devastation following the Dominion War, the Cardassians Union can rebuild with new awareness and join the Federation? I always envisioned the Cardassians joining before the Romulans for some reason. Maybe that's where the Cardassians were in the 'AGT' timeline? Maybe that's where they are in the regular one too.

Dear god NO! We would never..I mean Cardassia would and should never join the Federation!
The Cardassian Union died in the chaos of the DW and out of it will rise a new Cardassia, strong, proud and free with a respect for its allies and resolve towards hostile forces that will harness Cardassian pride for a more productive society. But not as another Fed world

 

[Praetor]

Okay, okay, calm down.

My bad....

 

[Thor Damar]

Okay, okay, calm down.

My bad....

I do apologise, I'm afraid my Cardassian sized ego got in the way.

 

[JustKate]

Thor has been most eloquent - "impassioned" might be a better word, and "articulate" is another good description - on this subject in at least one other thread, Praetor - you must have missed it. If you'd read it, you wouldn't have forgotten, I'm sure. If I can find a thread, I'll post a link.

 

[crohnie]

The only thing that I liked from AGT was Data remaining alive. I sort of liked the not to the Picard/Crusher relationship but don't like that it ended in divorce. They just didn't seem that kind of "couple" to me.

So I voted for the "actual" future. I can see Data's death the way the writers of Nemesis wanted me too... (I just choose not to)

 

[Lt.Cmdr.LaForge]

Im not at all a fan of the 'all good things' future. It moves too far away from Rodenberry's idealized vision of the future. To be honest it’s quite morbid. All of the enterprise crew, who were all best friends, have lost touch almost completely and tragedies like Deannas death and the Riker/Worf feud is sad to see.
Furthermore, the whole Klingon/Federation relations break down makes for an even more grim picture of the future.
However this doesn’t mean to say I’m not a fan of the episode. ‘All good things’ was a brilliant end to TNG. I’m just glad that the future that is depicted is unlikely to come to pass.

 

[Praetor]

I must say I'm rather pleasantly surprised that most people are not voting for the 'AGT' future. I don't really know why I thought it would do better.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The AGT future was too much of a downer for me. Riker was a bastard, Deanna dead, Geordi a homewrecker (dude, Leah Brahms was *married*!), Picard and Beverly split, and Data with a skunk hairdo.

God help me, I absolutely loved the alternate Enterprise-D though. When it suddenly decloaks, flies *straight up* and makes short work of those Klingon cruisers with a few well placed shots from its 'phaser lance' (which go straight through)...

As for Picard's 'illness': He probably won't get it in real life. The whole of AGT was an illusion created by Q anyway. So nothing that happened in that future can be taken at face value.

 

[Thor Damar]

I must say I'm rather pleasantly surprised that most people are not voting for the 'AGT' future. I don't really know why I thought it would do better.

People really did not like senile Picard, old cynical Worf and Riker and the anti-time technobabble.
Also the three nacelled Enterprise was kind of goofy looking (though it did have a effective weapons system).
And finally, who really wanted to see the RSE conquered and by the Klingons no less!

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, I loved the plot of AGT - it's one of the great series finales. I just don't like much of the alternate timeline it presented. Which is why I insist on calling it the "alternate" timeline.

The anti-time stuff worked for me, possibly because I am just that shallow or non-techie, but maybe because somehow the way it was presented just...you know...worked. I wouldn't want to take a quiz on it, but as I watch those episodes even now, I find myself right in the flow again.

 

[Myasishchev]

The techno-crap of anti-time served the plot well. Even though it's Bragatastic with a full-on technobabble solution to a technobabble problem... somehow it seemed epic. I enjoyed how it was framed as a mystery of existence which could be passably logicked out, without resort to much in the way of fictionic radiation. And ultimately, the anti-time eruptuion required an appropriate sacrifice to be fixed, even if Q saved them anyway.

I ought to hate it, because it's the precise recipe for a garbage Trek script, and yet it worked.

 

[JustKate]

^ It's one of those ideas, maybe, that should have been crap but just wasn't. I can't say I ever saw it that way, and I don't even now, but I can understand why others might feel differently. I thinkthe performances helped a lot, too. It was the people we cared about there, anyway.

The opposite (ideas that sound fine and turn out awful) seems to be a lot more common.

 

[Praetor]

^I agree.

I also think, in regard to the three-nacelle Enterprise, that justifications for the third nacelle aside, it was actually meant to be a gross, fanboyish 'refit' that was meant to send up the various Mary Sue 'superships' designed by some fans. Fighting merit and cloak aside, I really cannot get over how unnecessarily greebly it seemed, which is why I think the way I do about it. It really destroyed the eleganc curves of the D, but I really think that was the point.

Ironically, the ship that replaced her after she was destroyed was in form quite different, but in essence very much the same. The E might as well be called U.S.S. Asskicker.

(However, Playmates did make a really fun transforming D that went back and forth between the series version and the AGT version. )

 

[Thor Damar]

The USS ASSKICKER would have been a great name for a dominion wars era Starfleet warship, not quite as good as the HMS ARSEKICKER of course but still good.

The Enterprise DX as a screwyou to the fanboys? Brilliant.
Loved the firepower, did not like the design (but then the Galaxy Class has always left me cold to be perfectly honest.*ducks for cover*)

 

[SomniumRabidum]

I'd have to say elements of both, but if I absolutely had to choose one it'd definitely be the AGT version.

Data lives and federation ships cloak..... end of discussion as far as I'm concerned.