Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[Saito S]

Do you know how meaningless this statement is. You may like Voyager and Janeway in the same way I like DS9 and Sisko, but I couldn't care less if they kill Sisko off again or send him to commune with the prophets. In fact why dont we knock off Picard hey he is getting up there in years as well..because gosh darn it it might add some edginess to the books. He would be perfect really because there have been a heap of movies and a whole slew of books with him, so why not.
This is totally the atitude that we have been getting on Janeway. Fine you may like KJ and Voyager, but really in a distant sort of well, its not a bad show. Voyager on the other hand is the show that I could relate to. I especially enjoyed the fact that there was a female capatain and a female chief engineer. I liked my "ship of the Valkyries" I care about what happened to that Captain, as much as you'll might care about what happens to the Sisko or to Picard. So please dont give us your little platitudes about oh but I liked janeway and I dont mind her getting killed. Its irritating to say the least.

And PS yes I know female captain in the Unworthy -great but FYI its not Janeway so its not equivilent for me.

Okay, first of all, you shouldn't presume to know how much I "actually" like Voyager compared to other series. No, it's not my favorite Trek series, but it's far from being my least favorite, either, and there are things about it I really like. I just found the writing inconsistent.
But that's really not the main issue anyway. It sure sounds like you're saying that since you're a bigger fan than me of Janeway/Voyager, your opinion of this whole situation is somehow more valid than mine. I sure hope I'm wrong in that assesment.
As for killing Picard or Sisko... okay, fine. They could kill them if they had a good story to tell. Yes, I admit, they are closer to the top of my character list than Janeway. I wouldn't stop reading Trek Lit if I thought the story was well done, and that the books in general retain the level of quality I have encountered in the ones I've been reading recently. They could kill ANYONE, even someone such as Ezri (who is closer to the top of my favorite character list than either Picard or Sisko) and it wouldn't make me stop reading if I thought the quality was still there. Guarantee it. I'm not saying this has to be true for you, or for anyone else, but it IS true for me (and for others here, as well). Possessing this viewpoint doesn't invalidate our opinions on Janeway's death. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with the "This is totally the atitude that we have been getting on Janeway." What attitude? I'm not telling you what to do or how to feel. And quite frankly, there has been just as much "attitude" from those who are decrying Janeway's death as a travesty as there has been from the other side in this whole debate.

And me saying "I like Janeway and am OK with her death, and I like Voyager and am OK with the direction it's taking"... those aren't "platitudes", they're statements of how I feel. One of the points I have beaten to death in a lot of my posts to Lynx is that this is all a matter of opinion. You're entitled to yours, but I am entitled to mine.

Well, I think that if they can kill off the main character of a particular series in order to get an "effect", then i wouldn't be surprised if more characters will be killed off, especially since there seems to be a current trend to replace the original characters of all the TV shows with other characters.

Thrawn covered this pretty well in his reply. I will again reiterate my general response to this notion, though: Why? You still haven't said what it is that makes you think this will happen. You say you "wouldn't be surprised" if more characters suddenly up and died. Well, let me tell you, I sure as hell would be surprised to suddenly see the rest of the Voyager crew dropping like flies. It didn't happen when any other main characters died during various Trek series/movies, so why would it happen here?

I must admit that I'm surprised that people who claim that they like Janeway and Voyager are pleased with the death of the character. I wouldn't like to see any of them being killed off because it wild cause irreparable damage to a good series and also make many fans unhappy. I know, because I've been (and more and less am) in that situation.

GHA. Again with this wording. Who in the heck is "pleased" that Janeway died? I'm not. It made me sad. I liked Janeway. But I accepted her death and moved on, and am interested to see what develops from the fallout from her death. That doesn't mean I was happy when she died.

As for the wishes for certain "realism", I do think it's a thin line between stating that Trek should be more realistic and having the series being more realistic on all fronts.

Actually, the line isn't thin at all. The reason is that we weren't asking for them to kill Janeway or anyone else. It's not like a huge crowd was jumping up and down, going "MOAR REALISM IN TREK", and in response, they offed a main. The editing team decided to kill Janeway, and in response, some of us have said "Wow, interesting. That adds an element of realism I don't see very often in Trek. Neat."

In a way, yes because I had that hope that the relaunch should correct some horrible errors which were made in the TV series and also because the characters mentioned are actually main characters of the show.

Well, I won't spend a lot of time on this, because it basically comes down to a difference of opinion. I would think not having Neelix or (especially) Kes in post-"Endgame" novels would be the default position, considering how and when they left the show (again, especially Kes). But eh. *shrug*

Here I must disagree. I read and buy Voyager books because I want to read about the characters in the TV series and the special chemistry and inter-action between them, not to see them being replaced by other characters which in most cases aren't as good as the old favorites.

I don't mind reading about new characters here and there but I don't want them to replace the main characters from the TV series. I rather read a book about a totally new ship with a totally new crew than read of Voyager where too many of the main characters are replaced.

Well, that too is a matter of opinion. You (and others) simply want to read more about the same people. I (and others) want to read about those people, but I think it makes more sense for some shakeups to have occurred, so that's it's not just the same group so many years later. And I enjoy some of the original novel characters just as much as many of the TV characters.

Am I capable of making a post that isn't a mini-novel? I am beginning to think the answer is no.

 

[Praetor]

VOY: Golden's relaunch split off Tuvok (to teach), Doc & Seven (to research), Torres (to be Klingon), and Janeway (to be an Admiral).

Not to be pedantic, but Janeway was actually made Admiral canonically, in Nemesis, which more or less forced the books into that position. Which I think actually strengthens your argument (not that it will matter much).

Right on both counts, Clay.

I think what we have are essentially three groups:

1) Those who are glad Janeway is dead
2) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead but feel fine with moving on
3) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and do not feel fine with moving on

Miss anyone?

 

[Thrawn]

VOY: Golden's relaunch split off Tuvok (to teach), Doc & Seven (to research), Torres (to be Klingon), and Janeway (to be an Admiral).

Not to be pedantic, but Janeway was actually made Admiral canonically, in Nemesis, which more or less forced the books into that position. Which I think actually strengthens your argument (not that it will matter much).

Of course; I apologize for the error. As you say, I think my point still stands

 

[Lynx]

Well, I think that if they can kill off the main character of a particular series in order to get an "effect", then i wouldn't be surprised if more characters will be killed off, especially since there seems to be a current trend to replace the original characters of all the TV shows with other characters.

Let's review.

TNG: After Nemesis, Data is dead, and Riker and Troi have their own ship. So of course, as established BY CANON, those three characters must be replaced. Worf and Crusher they actually brought back to the Enterprise despite the fact that Nemesis gave hints they'd both be leaving, which they didn't have to do.

DS9: After WYLB, Sisko is off with the wormhole aliens, O'Brien is away teaching (yes?), Garak is off with the Cardassians, Odo is off with the Dominion, and Worf is off being ambassador. So of course, as established BY CANON, those characters have to be off the station...and nonetheless, they all play important roles in later books. They even brought Sisko back, when they didn't have to. (Noticing a trend?)

ENT: There was one main character killed on the show. They have ALSO been brought back, when they didn't have to be.

TOS: Lots of different stories all over the place; no easy answer here, but everyone not dead as of Generations is still apparently not dead in the main timeline, and Kirk has also been brought back in the separate Shatnerverse timeline.

VOY: Golden's relaunch split off Tuvok (to teach), Doc & Seven (to research), Torres (to be Klingon), and Janeway (to be an Admiral). Of those splits, Tuvok has now moved to another show and Janeway has died, but Torres is rejoining the ship, and Doc & Seven both have much more important roles in the show going forward. And - again - they didn't have to do that.

If you look across every single one of these series, literally the worst example of the phenomenon you describe is CHRISTIE GOLDEN'S Voyager relaunch. In every single other case, the books have MORE main characters involved in important storylines than canon itself would've dictated.

Just what the hell kind of trend are you talking about?

OK, you're right about TNG, DS9 and ENT and I also admit that it was those in charge of the TV show (and movies) who screwed up most of the crews.

But Voyager is still missing four main characters on the ship (including Janeway and Tuvok) and a fifth one is on his way out (Chakotay) with questionmarks for the Doctor and Seven.

 

[Steve Roby]

OK, you're right about TNG, DS9 and ENT and I also admit that it was those in charge of the TV show (and movies) who screwed up most of the crews.

But Voyager is still missing four main characters on the ship (including Janeway and Tuvok) and a fifth one is on his way out (Chakotay) with questionmarks for the Doctor and Seven.

It was those in charge of the TV series who made sure Kes and Neelix wouldn't be part of the relaunch by taking them off the ship before it got back to the Alpha Quadrant and giving them other things to do with their life. It was those in charge of the TV series and movies who made Janeway an admiral. It was those in charge of the TV series who made the series a show with an ending that changes everything about the show, so the books couldn't just go on doing the same thing 99% of the TV episodes did.

Oh, and by the way:

NO SPOILERS FOR FULL CIRCLE, PLEASE! There's another topic for that.

 

[Lynx]

Thrawn covered this pretty well in his reply. I will again reiterate my general response to this notion, though: Why? You still haven't said what it is that makes you think this will happen. You say you "wouldn't be surprised" if more characters suddenly up and died. Well, let me tell you, I sure as hell would be surprised to suddenly see the rest of the Voyager crew dropping like flies. It didn't happen when any other main characters died during various Trek series/movies, so why would it happen here?

Sorry, but I just have to repeat what I wrote before. If the main character can be killed off just like that, what will stop them from wasting more main characters when there's a need for an "effect"?

[/quote]GHA. Again with this wording. Who in the heck is "pleased" that Janeway died? I'm not. It made me sad. I liked Janeway. But I accepted her death and moved on, and am interested to see what develops from the fallout from her death. That doesn't mean I was happy when she died. [/quote]

I really hate that sentence "moving on" because for me it means acceptance and surrender, things which have never been an option for me. And what if there's nothing to move on to?

Actually, the line isn't thin at all. The reason is that we weren't asking for them to kill Janeway or anyone else. It's not like a huge crowd was jumping up and down, going "MOAR REALISM IN TREK", and in response, they offed a main. The editing team decided to kill Janeway, and in response, some of us have said "Wow, interesting. That adds an element of realism I don't see very often in Trek. Neat."

Yes, for some people it's an event of realism which they might like, for others it's character destruction which we could have lived without.

Well, I won't spend a lot of time on this, because it basically comes down to a difference of opinion. I would think not having Neelix or (especially) Kes in post-"Endgame" novels would be the default position, considering how and when they left the show (again, especially Kes). But eh. *shrug*

Well, I think both characters belongs in a Voyager relaunch and Kes should definitely be restored after the horrible and unnecessary destruction in "Fury".

Well, that too is a matter of opinion. You (and others) simply want to read more about the same people. I (and others) want to read about those people, but I think it makes more sense for some shakeups to have occurred, so that's it's not just the same group so many years later. And I enjoy some of the original novel characters just as much as many of the TV characters.

Yes, that's a matter of opinion. I prefer the original main characters.
By the way,

Spoiler: Full Circle spoiler

I saw that Lyssa Campbell will be dropped which is sad because it's one of the added characters I liked. She was in "Marooned" which is nr.2 on my favorite list of Voyager books.

 

[Lynx]

OK, you're right about TNG, DS9 and ENT and I also admit that it was those in charge of the TV show (and movies) who screwed up most of the crews.

But Voyager is still missing four main characters on the ship (including Janeway and Tuvok) and a fifth one is on his way out (Chakotay) with questionmarks for the Doctor and Seven.

It was those in charge of the TV series who made sure Kes and Neelix wouldn't be part of the relaunch by taking them off the ship before it got back to the Alpha Quadrant and giving them other things to do with their life. It was those in charge of the TV series and movies who made Janeway an admiral. It was those in charge of the TV series who made the series a show with an ending that changes everything about the show, so the books couldn't just go on doing the same thing 99% of the TV episodes did.

And that's exactly what I did hope that the relaunch could correct in some way.

 

[Paris]

Hey Lynx...what's so great about Kes? I'm not looking to start some shit, but I never disliked her, but she didn't seem to do much other than try and expand her telepathic skills. I thought that this was one of the main reasons for axing her...

What's your favorite Kes moment?...episode?

 

[Gorf]

And as you can tell, this kind of ignorance and negativity drives some of us a little crazy when she's, supposedly, the main character of the first 300 or so pages.

So you suggest I waste good money on half a book and just leave the rest? I don't think so.

I have a highly informed opinion on Janeway being killed in a TNG book, and that's basically all I need.

Now if they had plans to bring her back in Unworthy I would have been totally fine with the direction, but since it has been made perfectly clear to us that they don't...well you figure it out.

 

[Paris]

And as you can tell, this kind of ignorance and negativity drives some of us a little crazy when she's, supposedly, the main character of the first 300 or so pages.

So you suggest I waste good money on half a book and just leave the rest? I don't think so.

I have a highly informed opinion on Janeway being killed in a TNG book, and that's basically all I need.

Now if they had plans to bring her back in Unworthy I would have been totally fine with the direction, but since it has been made perfectly clear to us that they don't...well you figure it out.

I suggest no such thing. Why would I want you to leave half of the book? Who does that? You already seem to know all you need to know. You have a "highly informed opinion". What the fuck does that mean exactly? I've read the book where she died, so does this mean I have a "highly informed opinion" as well, or only you? Honestly, I hope you never buy the book or read it. Please please please never ever buy or read it. That's all I want. Just leave the books to those who actually want to read them. Maybe i'll buy two...

 

[Gorf]

I suggest no such thing. Why would I want you to leave half of the book? Who does that?

Well, obviously I'd have to since I have absolutely no interest in reading about Janeway's death and what comes after.

Edit - unless of course I knew she would be revived in Unworthy.

You seemed to disagree with Janeway fans not liking or buying the book since she's a main character for the first 300 pages. I simply pointed out the deciding factor for some of us to you.

You have a "highly informed opinion". What the fuck does that mean exactly?

I don't know. You were the one bringing the word "informed" into the discussion so you tell me. You don't have to read the book to reach an opinion on whether or not you wish to read said book. Obviously there's a lot about Janeway, but since she still dies and stays dead...no thanks.

Honestly, I hope you never buy the book or read it. Please please please never ever buy or read it. That's all I want. Just leave the books to those who actually want to read them. Maybe i'll buy two...

Wish granted. Your sarcasm has no effect on me though. I'm way too used to it by now.

 

[ClayinCA]

Do you know how meaningless this statement is. You may like Voyager and Janeway in the same way I like DS9 and Sisko, but I couldn't care less if they kill Sisko off again or send him to commune with the prophets. In fact why dont we knock off Picard hey he is getting up there in years as well..because gosh darn it it might add some edginess to the books. He would be perfect really because there have been a heap of movies and a whole slew of books with him, so why not.
This is totally the atitude that we have been getting on Janeway. Fine you may like KJ and Voyager, but really in a distant sort of well, its not a bad show. Voyager on the other hand is the show that I could relate to. I especially enjoyed the fact that there was a female capatain and a female chief engineer. I liked my "ship of the Valkyries" I care about what happened to that Captain, as much as you'll might care about what happens to the Sisko or to Picard. So please dont give us your little platitudes about oh but I liked janeway and I dont mind her getting killed. Its irritating to say the least.

And PS yes I know female captain in the Unworthy -great but FYI its not Janeway so its not equivilent for me.

Okay, first of all, you shouldn't presume to know how much I "actually" like Voyager compared to other series. No, it's not my favorite Trek series, but it's far from being my least favorite, either, and there are things about it I really like. I just found the writing inconsistent.
But that's really not the main issue anyway. It sure sounds like you're saying that since you're a bigger fan than me of Janeway/Voyager, your opinion of this whole situation is somehow more valid than mine. I sure hope I'm wrong in that assesment.
As for killing Picard or Sisko... okay, fine. They could kill them if they had a good story to tell. Yes, I admit, they are closer to the top of my character list than Janeway. I wouldn't stop reading Trek Lit if I thought the story was well done, and that the books in general retain the level of quality I have encountered in the ones I've been reading recently. They could kill ANYONE, even someone such as Ezri (who is closer to the top of my favorite character list than either Picard or Sisko) and it wouldn't make me stop reading if I thought the quality was still there. Guarantee it. I'm not saying this has to be true for you, or for anyone else, but it IS true for me (and for others here, as well). Possessing this viewpoint doesn't invalidate our opinions on Janeway's death. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with the "This is totally the atitude that we have been getting on Janeway." What attitude? I'm not telling you what to do or how to feel. And quite frankly, there has been just as much "attitude" from those who are decrying Janeway's death as a travesty as there has been from the other side in this whole debate.

And me saying "I like Janeway and am OK with her death, and I like Voyager and am OK with the direction it's taking"... those aren't "platitudes", they're statements of how I feel. One of the points I have beaten to death in a lot of my posts to Lynx is that this is all a matter of opinion. You're entitled to yours, but I am entitled to mine.

More power to you, Saito. I found a lot of what Militant said to you to be insulting, but I figured you're a big boy/girl (oh no, not that again!) and figured you can take care of yourself.

Seriously, your position is more or less my own on this matter - while I wouldn't be exactly happy if, say, Picard had been killed, that on its own wouldn't have been enough to get me to stop reading the books. (If the subsequent books had all been crap, well, that's another story.)

Thrawn covered this pretty well in his reply. I will again reiterate my general response to this notion, though: Why? You still haven't said what it is that makes you think this will happen. You say you "wouldn't be surprised" if more characters suddenly up and died. Well, let me tell you, I sure as hell would be surprised to suddenly see the rest of the Voyager crew dropping like flies. It didn't happen when any other main characters died during various Trek series/movies, so why would it happen here?

There you go using logic again. That's not going to get you anywhere.

GHA. Again with this wording. Who in the heck is "pleased" that Janeway died? I'm not. It made me sad. I liked Janeway. But I accepted her death and moved on, and am interested to see what develops from the fallout from her death. That doesn't mean I was happy when she died.

Yeah, pretty much. Me, I just wanted good Star Trek stories. Which I think we're getting. Others may not think so, which as you said, just boils down to difference of opinion - which you'd think wouldn't be something that you could argue for what has to be thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of posts by now. Then again, welcome to the internet, I guess....

Am I capable of making a post that isn't a mini-novel? I am beginning to think the answer is no.

If it helps you feel better, think of it as a novella. It's arty and makes you sound smart.

Right on both counts, Clay.

Oh good, I love it when people agree with me!

I think what we have are essentially three groups:

1) Those who are glad Janeway is dead
2) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead but feel fine with moving on
3) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and do not feel fine with moving on

Miss anyone?

No, I think that's about right.

Of course; I apologize for the error. As you say, I think my point still stands

Sure. As I say, sorry to be a pedant!

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think there is a remarkably large and vocal fandom in spite of Voyager's relative obscurity, don't you?

Vocal, sure.

But you have absolutely no proof that VOY fans represent "a large segment of the fandom". Ratings say that not enough ST fans even followed it, and less again followed ENT.

 

[captcalhoun]

I think what we have are essentially three groups:

1) Those who are glad Janeway is dead
2) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead but feel fine with moving on
3) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and do not feel fine with moving on

Miss anyone?

yes. people who don't give a shit that she died and just wish everyone would remember:

IT'S NOT REAL!! SHE'S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER!!! IT'S JUST A FUCKING BOOK!!! GET THE HELL OVER IT!!!!!

worry about something REAL like the economy, or global climate change or the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan or the impending threat posed by a nuclear-armed Iran or the starving in Africa. not what happened to a FICTIONAL CHARACTER IN A FICTIONAL BOOK!

FFS!!!

 

[Thrawn]

But Voyager is still missing four main characters on the ship (including Janeway and Tuvok) and a fifth one is on his way out (Chakotay) with questionmarks for the Doctor and Seven.

I appreciate you admitting that you were wrong about the other series...but then you go right back to this. I answered this question like 2 pages ago in this thread - at least one statement you make in this quote is a BLATANT LIE and one other is, at best, a vast distortion of the truth. You don't even have to read the book to know that, just re-read a post I made in response to you earlier.

There is no reason for you to post this except if you are trying to actively distort reality to support your positions against people that don't know better. It's dishonest and dishonorable.

Stop. Making. Shit. Up.

 

[JustKate]

But you have absolutely no proof that VOY fans represent "a large segment of the fandom". Ratings say that not enough ST fans even followed it, and less again followed ENT.

But she's right that you can't go entirely by ratings - although I concede it's difficult to come up with another unbiased criteria. UPN was a sucky little network, and that's all there is to it, so we can have all kinds of arguments about what might have happened if Voyager had been broadcast by this organization or that one. Ratings are probably the best unbiased indicator we have available, but "best" is a relative term. They actually aren't that great, but so far the networks haven't come up with anything better. They are damn well trying, now that their audience has eroded.

And of course ratings have nothing to do with quality. Great shows fail, bad ones flourish and vice versa and everything in between.

I think what we have are essentially three groups:
1) Those who are glad Janeway is dead
2) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead but feel fine with moving on
3) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and do not feel fine with moving on

Miss anyone?

That sounds just about perfect, except that we might consider adding a couple of subgroups:
1a) Those who don't care much one way or another but who pretend to be glad Janeway is dead because they want to annoy others. Sometimes, I can understand this, I really can.
2a) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and would really rather not move on, but they will because the alternative is to never read another Voyager book again.

 

[Thrawn]

And as you can tell, this kind of ignorance and negativity drives some of us a little crazy when she's, supposedly, the main character of the first 300 or so pages.

So you suggest I waste good money on half a book and just leave the rest? I don't think so.

I have a highly informed opinion on Janeway being killed in a TNG book, and that's basically all I need.

Now if they had plans to bring her back in Unworthy I would have been totally fine with the direction, but since it has been made perfectly clear to us that they don't...well you figure it out.

Gorf - this is a completely defensible position; thank you for being so cool-headed. I would just like to state that I have no problem with this kind of mindset. I do have a problem with people that, like you, have not read the book complaining about details within the book that they're uninformed about, and this is something that you have never done.

 

[Thrawn]

Sorry, but I just have to repeat what I wrote before. If the main character can be killed off just like that, what will stop them from wasting more main characters when there's a need for an "effect"?

And this is the point that I was making before, with my list of the other series.

To be fair, NOTHING is preventing them from doing so, in much the same way nothing is preventing them from writing a 12-book epic about the Great Tribble Invasion or something equally nonsensical...nothing except what made them kill off Janeway in the first place - the desire to tell a good story. And, as you can see, Janeway's death is the exception rather than the rule; they clearly would not have done so unless they felt it was worthy, and as evidenced by the dozen or so cases where they brought main characters back into a place to continue impacting the ongoing narrative (including in Full Circle!) it's not a decision they took lightly.

Complain about Janeway's death all you want; it's a debatable decision, for damn sure. But don't act like it's part of some overall trend. It's very clear that this is an exception, not a rule.

 

[Gorf]

And as you can tell, this kind of ignorance and negativity drives some of us a little crazy when she's, supposedly, the main character of the first 300 or so pages.

So you suggest I waste good money on half a book and just leave the rest? I don't think so.

I have a highly informed opinion on Janeway being killed in a TNG book, and that's basically all I need.

Now if they had plans to bring her back in Unworthy I would have been totally fine with the direction, but since it has been made perfectly clear to us that they don't...well you figure it out.

Gorf - this is a completely defensible position; thank you for being so cool-headed. I would just like to state that I have no problem with this kind of mindset. I do have a problem with people that, like you, have not read the book complaining about details within the book that they're uninformed about, and this is something that you have never done.

You're welcome. I try though I don't always succeed, but then I doubt that most of us always do.

 

[JB2005]

If pocket books were clever, they'd leak information that Janeway turns up alive in the next book, because there would be a flood of people going to buy it...and lets be honest those people aren't going to be able to ask for a refund if they then read it and janeway stayed dead, with the words "April Fool" at the end...