A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Guys and dolls, if we're going to keep talking about it, why don't we start another thread about whether VGR was plot or character driven and not hijack this one so we can let GodBen do his reviews? Please? I know part of the point of the reviews are evaluating and discussing a 'hater's' views on the show, but we shouldn't derail him.
While this was in some ways a 'very special' episode, I think it was handled well, and was rather entertaining. It did what TOS often did well: addressing a modern ethical issue in a science fiction setting. Riker's cameo and the other 'trial' stuff was a bit gimmicky, and you're dead on that the first three acts were a bit too padded out and the substance crammed too tightly into the last bit of the show.
As to Q appearing on VGR: I'm of two minds about this. I agree that Q not sparring with Picard is weird. It just feels weird. It didn't seem right at all on DS9 with Sisko, and it still seems weird on VGR with Janeway. From what I understand, DeLancie and Mulgrew are close friends in the real world and this is part of the impetus for the crossovers. However, while it does verge on being overdone by the end of the show, Q's 'discovery' of Janeway by the freeing of Q2 is plausible enough to not be too cutesy. Also, DeLancie's and Mulgrew's relationship seems to shine through and makes for an interesting chemistry between the characters. So I can live with it. At least I enjoyed it for the most part.
Guys and dolls, if we're going to keep talking about it, why don't we start another thread about whether VGR was plot or character driven and not hijack this one so we can let GodBen do his reviews? Please? I know part of the point of the reviews are evaluating and discussing a 'hater's' views on the show, but we shouldn't derail him.
While this was in some ways a 'very special' episode, I think it was handled well, and was rather entertaining. It did what TOS often did well: addressing a modern ethical issue in a science fiction setting. Riker's cameo and the other 'trial' stuff was a bit gimmicky, and you're dead on that the first three acts were a bit too padded out and the substance crammed too tightly into the last bit of the show.
As to Q appearing on VGR: I'm of two minds about this. I agree that Q not sparring with Picard is weird. It just feels weird. It didn't seem right at all on DS9 with Sisko, and it still seems weird on VGR with Janeway. From what I understand, DeLancie and Mulgrew are close friends in the real world and this is part of the impetus for the crossovers. However, while it does verge on being overdone by the end of the show, Q's 'discovery' of Janeway by the freeing of Q2 is plausible enough to not be too cutesy. Also, DeLancie's and Mulgrew's relationship seems to shine through and makes for an interesting chemistry between the characters. So I can live with it. At least I enjoyed it for the most part.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
We knew plenty about Tom, but it was all flash in the pan glances of supreme insight that was never to be repeated again. Voyagers writing staff was like a relay race where the runners don't pass on their batons tot eh next runners but instead pull their own batons of different shapes and colours out of their back pocket and begin running... I'd extend this metaphor to suggest that the runners try specifically not to pass on their batons, and if by some accident they are supposed to pass on these batons to themselves as a the next runner doubled up, they just throw it away and sometimes argue that there was no one tryig to pass them a baton before they started and they were the first runner so of course they needed a new baton... Sorry.
Facts about Garrak and Nog were repeated and built upon and repeated and built upon and repeated and built upon as if they had real lives with foundations and momentum.
We knew plenty about Tom, but it was all flash in the pan glances of supreme insight that was never to be repeated again. Voyagers writing staff was like a relay race where the runners don't pass on their batons tot eh next runners but instead pull their own batons of different shapes and colours out of their back pocket and begin running... I'd extend this metaphor to suggest that the runners try specifically not to pass on their batons, and if by some accident they are supposed to pass on these batons to themselves as a the next runner doubled up, they just throw it away and sometimes argue that there was no one tryig to pass them a baton before they started and they were the first runner so of course they needed a new baton... Sorry.
Facts about Garrak and Nog were repeated and built upon and repeated and built upon and repeated and built upon as if they had real lives with foundations and momentum.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Personally, I don't think it was character driven, I think the characters were determined by the plot of each episode. If an episode needed Janeway to have a certain position then she had that position even if she expressed the reverse of that opinion in the past. It happens in nearly every show eventually, there was a blatant case of it in one of the last episodes of BSG, but I think that it happened on Voyager a lot more than most shows.
I think it is okay if people debate in here, it's not like as if I'll have another episode review until tomorrow at the earliest. I started this thread so that I could point out the flaws that I thought existed in Voyager and see how many other people agreed with me about those flaws or if they thought they were actually positive aspects of the show. I have found this debate about Voyager being character driven or not to be quite fascinating.
Personally, I don't think it was character driven, I think the characters were determined by the plot of each episode. If an episode needed Janeway to have a certain position then she had that position even if she expressed the reverse of that opinion in the past. It happens in nearly every show eventually, there was a blatant case of it in one of the last episodes of BSG, but I think that it happened on Voyager a lot more than most shows.
One of the problems I had with the first three acts is that Quinn didn't seem like a guy who was bored with living, it wasn't until that part where he said he was once a scarecrow because it was something he had never done before that I finally realised what he was getting at. I'm not sure if the episode was supposed to be like that, but I don't think it helped those first three acts.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
There were only a few characters that I felt had any depth on Voyager. One was Tom Paris. He changes from a problem child and a party boy into a good friend and family man. I always enjoyed Tom because he was so human and a lot like me, black sheep. Of course the Doctor changes immensely. There is also good growth in Seven.
On a side note, one of the things that I really liked about the ENT cast and characters, was that they felt like us. Really liked Trip, Archer and T'Pol together a lot.
The best cast chemistry,
TOS
DS9
ENT, there really was some great stuff with the main three and Reed.
TNG
VOY
There were only a few characters that I felt had any depth on Voyager. One was Tom Paris. He changes from a problem child and a party boy into a good friend and family man. I always enjoyed Tom because he was so human and a lot like me, black sheep. Of course the Doctor changes immensely. There is also good growth in Seven.
On a side note, one of the things that I really liked about the ENT cast and characters, was that they felt like us. Really liked Trip, Archer and T'Pol together a lot.
The best cast chemistry,
TOS
DS9
ENT, there really was some great stuff with the main three and Reed.
TNG
VOY
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Okay then.
Not surprisingly... I agree!
Trifecta... I agree with that too. I think Quinn's argument was understandable, though. It's surprising how boring it might ultimately be, if given enough time, to be omnipotent. At some point, surely there's nothing left that's personally exciting. And isn't that the parallel to the real-world issue of suicide?
Okay then.
Not surprisingly... I agree!
Trifecta... I agree with that too. I think Quinn's argument was understandable, though. It's surprising how boring it might ultimately be, if given enough time, to be omnipotent. At some point, surely there's nothing left that's personally exciting. And isn't that the parallel to the real-world issue of suicide?
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Omniscience trumps time.
Quinn already knew what the next 6 billion years should have produced for him (if he had lived) and he would have experienced every second of it simultaneously alongside still again the previous 5 billion years without relief or respite, or is there some definition of "omniscience" I don't know about?
Ipso facto he already knew he was going to kill himself billions of years before the trial but he pretended that he might live on to preserve causality from the mortals perspective so they wouldn't fight fate.
Like a junky trying to get a fix from a free clinic really.
Omniscience trumps time.
Quinn already knew what the next 6 billion years should have produced for him (if he had lived) and he would have experienced every second of it simultaneously alongside still again the previous 5 billion years without relief or respite, or is there some definition of "omniscience" I don't know about?
Ipso facto he already knew he was going to kill himself billions of years before the trial but he pretended that he might live on to preserve causality from the mortals perspective so they wouldn't fight fate.
Like a junky trying to get a fix from a free clinic really.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
There is a really great story in this episode which almost got sidetracked by the antics of Q. Almost.
Ding ding ding!! That's three agreements in a row, you win this fabulous GodBen keyring!
I can definitely understand Quinn's position. The way I see it, the only reason I will get up tomorrow is out of a belief that tomorrow will be a better day than today. If I lost that belief, if I felt that tomorrow is going to be a worse day and that there would never again be a day in my life worth anything, I would consider whether I should going on. I believe that the right to life we all have includes with it a right to end that life at a time of our choosing and no society should deny an individual that right.
There is a really great story in this episode which almost got sidetracked by the antics of Q. Almost.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I tend to agree. (BTW, thanks for the keyring.)
You have just summed it up perfectly.
I tend to agree. (BTW, thanks for the keyring.)
You have just summed it up perfectly.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I've been away and the reviews have gone on without me. lol. Um...let's see.
Tattoo (**) was mostly lame, and made me giggle and groan a lot.
Cold Fire (***) reeked of potential, but was missing something - I did like that they didn't wait for the finale to find the Caretaker's mate - though calling her Suspiria annoyed me. I thought the story should have been followed up on at a later point, but it doesn't overly irk me that it wasn't.
Maneuvers (****) was great. I loved the return of Seska and her manipulation of the Kazon and the Voyager crew. I probably would have been less impressed, but this was the first Kazon story I'd enjoyed since 'State of Flux'. Plus female Cardassians are frakking creepy looking, so Seska came back looking a lot like the possessed girl from the Exorcist.
Resistance (****) was Janeway Gold. I do remember however that the UPN promo for this episode made it look like it was all about Janeway being a hooker. Those old UPN promos did not do this series any favors. Joel Grey's performance breaks my heart every time!
Prototype (**) was ok. Not much to say about it really. Though the production design for the androids or whatever they were was lame. Actually, this feels slightly sub-par in retrospect.
Alliances (***) also ok. It has moments I really like, and other moments that I hate. I like that the crew tries to do things differently. And I hate that Janeway cries foul at the end when it doesn't work out - I found that really annoying. And the attempt at deepening the Kazon that failed so miserably in 'Initiations' works a lot better here (even if they should have left the Kazon behind by now).
Threshhold (*) is shit. It's science was bad and made no sense. It was bad when it was ripping off 'The Fly' and then it just got worse...and worse... I don't do 'no stars' or 'negative stars'. So 1 star it is.
Meld (**) I don't like this episode. It's not that it's bad, because it's not, and it's actually a pretty cool story...it's the casting I have a problem with. When this episode aired the guy that played Suder (Brad Dourif) had already played weird pschos in multiple venues (including Dune, The X-Files, The Exorcist III, & the Child's Play movies - just to name a few) and I just found it hard to take him seriously as a result. He's cool. He is. But his performance lost something for me when I realized I'd seen it several times before. And his character is at the center of everything - so I accpet that others probably get a lot more out of this than me - though I did like the pay off for the character later in the season - when he wasn't central. This one just...I don't enjoy it.
Dreadnought (****) I like this one a lot. The Cardassian design. The Torres vs. Torres storyline. I like it. A lot. It's kind of cheesy, but I'm ok with that.
And finally...
Death Wish (*****) this is my favorite ever Q episode. I don't care for his other 2 appearances on Voyager, or his appearance on DS9 - I loathe 'Encounter at Farpoint', 'Hide & Q', & 'True Q'. I think 'Q Who?', 'Q-Pid' & 'All Good Things...' are ok (Q-Pid being the lesser of the 3). I enjoy 'Deja Q' & 'Tapesty' a great deal. But this one is my favorite. I like the message. I like the guest actor (who I recognized right away as a guest star from China Beach, which starred Robert Picardo as a different doctor). I love the continuity (can't say that often on this series). I love Janeway in this episode. And I love Q, which seldom if ever happens. So, I like this one a lot.
All caught up now I think.
I've been away and the reviews have gone on without me. lol. Um...let's see.
Tattoo (**) was mostly lame, and made me giggle and groan a lot.
Cold Fire (***) reeked of potential, but was missing something - I did like that they didn't wait for the finale to find the Caretaker's mate - though calling her Suspiria annoyed me. I thought the story should have been followed up on at a later point, but it doesn't overly irk me that it wasn't.
Maneuvers (****) was great. I loved the return of Seska and her manipulation of the Kazon and the Voyager crew. I probably would have been less impressed, but this was the first Kazon story I'd enjoyed since 'State of Flux'. Plus female Cardassians are frakking creepy looking, so Seska came back looking a lot like the possessed girl from the Exorcist.
Resistance (****) was Janeway Gold. I do remember however that the UPN promo for this episode made it look like it was all about Janeway being a hooker. Those old UPN promos did not do this series any favors. Joel Grey's performance breaks my heart every time!
Prototype (**) was ok. Not much to say about it really. Though the production design for the androids or whatever they were was lame. Actually, this feels slightly sub-par in retrospect.
Alliances (***) also ok. It has moments I really like, and other moments that I hate. I like that the crew tries to do things differently. And I hate that Janeway cries foul at the end when it doesn't work out - I found that really annoying. And the attempt at deepening the Kazon that failed so miserably in 'Initiations' works a lot better here (even if they should have left the Kazon behind by now).
Threshhold (*) is shit. It's science was bad and made no sense. It was bad when it was ripping off 'The Fly' and then it just got worse...and worse... I don't do 'no stars' or 'negative stars'. So 1 star it is.
Meld (**) I don't like this episode. It's not that it's bad, because it's not, and it's actually a pretty cool story...it's the casting I have a problem with. When this episode aired the guy that played Suder (Brad Dourif) had already played weird pschos in multiple venues (including Dune, The X-Files, The Exorcist III, & the Child's Play movies - just to name a few) and I just found it hard to take him seriously as a result. He's cool. He is. But his performance lost something for me when I realized I'd seen it several times before. And his character is at the center of everything - so I accpet that others probably get a lot more out of this than me - though I did like the pay off for the character later in the season - when he wasn't central. This one just...I don't enjoy it.
Dreadnought (****) I like this one a lot. The Cardassian design. The Torres vs. Torres storyline. I like it. A lot. It's kind of cheesy, but I'm ok with that.
And finally...
Death Wish (*****) this is my favorite ever Q episode. I don't care for his other 2 appearances on Voyager, or his appearance on DS9 - I loathe 'Encounter at Farpoint', 'Hide & Q', & 'True Q'. I think 'Q Who?', 'Q-Pid' & 'All Good Things...' are ok (Q-Pid being the lesser of the 3). I enjoy 'Deja Q' & 'Tapesty' a great deal. But this one is my favorite. I like the message. I like the guest actor (who I recognized right away as a guest star from China Beach, which starred Robert Picardo as a different doctor). I love the continuity (can't say that often on this series). I love Janeway in this episode. And I love Q, which seldom if ever happens. So, I like this one a lot.
All caught up now I think.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
^ Here's another for you.
Lifesigns (***)
I had seen bits and pieces of this episode in the past but I don't think I ever saw it from beginning to end. It is one of only a handful of episodes of Trek which I have never fully seen before, I think that Resolutions and Real Life are the only two others.
The episode moved a bit slowly for my tastes, although the writing is good and I believed the chemistry between the Doctor and Pel. Picardo had me laughing out loud during the scene where he reveals to Pel that he is in love with her, great timing on his part. I didn't like the ending so much, I really hated that final scene because it was played as if this was the first time the Doctor had seen Pel since she went back into her own body, but he is the one who performed the procedure! Of course he knows what she looks like, he was probably talking to her in sickbay 20 minutes ago. Also, you don't see a goodbye scene between them. Maybe it wasn't needed, maybe we've seen similar goodbyes too many times in the past, but I wasn't satisfied by them just dancing at the end.
Also, what happened with his new name? Shmullus wasn't a great name, but we never hear it again, not even Pel calls him it again after their first date.
Then there is the Paris story which I know plays into next week's episode. The problem I have with this Paris insubordinate arc is that I know he is only pretending as part of a ruse planned by Tuvok and Janeway, I would have much preferred if this had been happening for real.
^ Here's another for you.
Lifesigns (***)
I had seen bits and pieces of this episode in the past but I don't think I ever saw it from beginning to end. It is one of only a handful of episodes of Trek which I have never fully seen before, I think that Resolutions and Real Life are the only two others.
The episode moved a bit slowly for my tastes, although the writing is good and I believed the chemistry between the Doctor and Pel. Picardo had me laughing out loud during the scene where he reveals to Pel that he is in love with her, great timing on his part. I didn't like the ending so much, I really hated that final scene because it was played as if this was the first time the Doctor had seen Pel since she went back into her own body, but he is the one who performed the procedure! Of course he knows what she looks like, he was probably talking to her in sickbay 20 minutes ago. Also, you don't see a goodbye scene between them. Maybe it wasn't needed, maybe we've seen similar goodbyes too many times in the past, but I wasn't satisfied by them just dancing at the end.
Also, what happened with his new name? Shmullus wasn't a great name, but we never hear it again, not even Pel calls him it again after their first date.
Then there is the Paris story which I know plays into next week's episode. The problem I have with this Paris insubordinate arc is that I know he is only pretending as part of a ruse planned by Tuvok and Janeway, I would have much preferred if this had been happening for real.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Agreed regarding 'Lifesigns,' GodBen.
Good story, enjoyable, but a bit oddly paced at times, and you're particularly spot-on in regard to the ending. It was bittersweet, but felt just a tiny bit off. I've often thought that this episode, a lot like 'Death Wish' but to a lesser, more subtle extent, seemed to verge on being a 'very special episode' by addressing the issue of love versus appearance. I'm not sure if the writers had a specific 'message' to get across here, though. Kudos nonetheless for addressing a socially-relevant issue in a sci-fi medium.
Maybe his full name in the 'Endgame' future is 'Joe Shmullus'?
Seriously, it seemed rude of him to apparently completely ignore a name given him by a woman he loved. Perhaps it was too painful, because it made him think of her? More likely, continuity ball dropping.
I agree again, actually. (How long til I get another keyring?)
I wonder if anyone actually thought Tom would leave? I was, what, 11, at the time this episode aired, and knew that he wasn't going anywhere. I don't recall whether I realized that it was a ruse, but I was sure he wasn't going anywhere. It would, therefore, have been interesting if not only was it genuine but they had displayed the courage to have him actually leave for a while, or end up in the brig for a few episodes.
Agreed regarding 'Lifesigns,' GodBen.
Good story, enjoyable, but a bit oddly paced at times, and you're particularly spot-on in regard to the ending. It was bittersweet, but felt just a tiny bit off. I've often thought that this episode, a lot like 'Death Wish' but to a lesser, more subtle extent, seemed to verge on being a 'very special episode' by addressing the issue of love versus appearance. I'm not sure if the writers had a specific 'message' to get across here, though. Kudos nonetheless for addressing a socially-relevant issue in a sci-fi medium.
Maybe his full name in the 'Endgame' future is 'Joe Shmullus'?
Seriously, it seemed rude of him to apparently completely ignore a name given him by a woman he loved. Perhaps it was too painful, because it made him think of her? More likely, continuity ball dropping.
I agree again, actually. (How long til I get another keyring?
) I wonder if anyone actually thought Tom would leave? I was, what, 11, at the time this episode aired, and knew that he wasn't going anywhere. I don't recall whether I realized that it was a ruse, but I was sure he wasn't going anywhere. It would, therefore, have been interesting if not only was it genuine but they had displayed the courage to have him actually leave for a while, or end up in the brig for a few episodes.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Well, if characters don't grow and change, a character-driven show will get mighty boring, with the characters going over the same issues again and again.
Well, if characters don't grow and change, a character-driven show will get mighty boring, with the characters going over the same issues again and again.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I thought that myself and then I remembered why I thought it; that is exactly what happened with Freya in Heroes and Demons. This guy really needs to stop associating his name with the women he has been with.
I'm afraid I only made one. I have a Bart Simpson keyring here if you want it.(How long til I get another keyring?
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Just WAIT until we reach the fourth season and beyond - it's tragically hilarious when I read descriptions of them from Jammer's reviews. 'Counterpoint' is advertised as 'sleeping with the enemy' and I mean in the non-metaphorical terms.
Just WAIT until we reach the fourth season and beyond - it's tragically hilarious when I read descriptions of them from Jammer's reviews. 'Counterpoint' is advertised as 'sleeping with the enemy' and I mean in the non-metaphorical terms.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Yeah... I remember those. I recorded seasons 4-7 on VHS as I watched. And boy howdy...
Yeah... I remember those. I recorded seasons 4-7 on VHS as I watched. And boy howdy...
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I liked the episode a great deal. I thought it yet another great use of the Vidians, a race that I felt Voyager got just right, and didn't press into stories that didn't really need them. I loved the continuity from 'Faces', with the scene where B'Elanna is confronted in sickbay. The minor recurring plot with Tom annoyed me when it first aired, but looking back I could see they were trying out continuing plot threads, which they just got wrong on their first attempt, and then decided to never try again for a very long time - which is a shame. I think it would be less annoying if I was someone that watched Voyager on DVD in a marathon session, but seeing it one episode at a time, that plot felt really odd. And as noted above (and I loved this about the episode too) the name Shmullus does indeed return later in the season as a really great continuity point. I agree that they should have had a goodbye scene, but I think they just ran out of time is all - and the important thing to see was that the Doctor really didn't care about the way she looked - and the dance played that out nicely, with it's sad music giving just the right touch for the doomed romance. I also figured he gave up the name based on the character's not liking it based on a sad memory, but I think the series and the character would have been better served if he'd kept the name in honor of her - which is more moving, seems more adult, and also would have jettisoned the long running, and incredibly lame Doctor Name Plot - it was cute in the first 2 seasons but then it stopped being fun, and it was never clever.
^ Here's another for you.
Lifesigns (***)
Also, what happened with his new name? Shmullus wasn't a great name, but we never hear it again, not even Pel calls him it again after their first date.
Then there is the Paris story which I know plays into next week's episode. The problem I have with this Paris insubordinate arc is that I know he is only pretending as part of a ruse planned by Tuvok and Janeway, I would have much preferred if this had been happening for real.
I liked the episode a great deal. I thought it yet another great use of the Vidians, a race that I felt Voyager got just right, and didn't press into stories that didn't really need them. I loved the continuity from 'Faces', with the scene where B'Elanna is confronted in sickbay. The minor recurring plot with Tom annoyed me when it first aired, but looking back I could see they were trying out continuing plot threads, which they just got wrong on their first attempt, and then decided to never try again for a very long time - which is a shame. I think it would be less annoying if I was someone that watched Voyager on DVD in a marathon session, but seeing it one episode at a time, that plot felt really odd. And as noted above (and I loved this about the episode too) the name Shmullus does indeed return later in the season as a really great continuity point. I agree that they should have had a goodbye scene, but I think they just ran out of time is all - and the important thing to see was that the Doctor really didn't care about the way she looked - and the dance played that out nicely, with it's sad music giving just the right touch for the doomed romance. I also figured he gave up the name based on the character's not liking it based on a sad memory, but I think the series and the character would have been better served if he'd kept the name in honor of her - which is more moving, seems more adult, and also would have jettisoned the long running, and incredibly lame Doctor Name Plot - it was cute in the first 2 seasons but then it stopped being fun, and it was never clever.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I don't wish to sound like I'm being negative because that is a beautiful sentiment, but my problem is that anyone who has truly been in love knows this to be true. For that reason the episode just didn't connect for me at the end because it seemed like such an obvious thing that it didn't need to be stated. It was a lovely scene, I just wish it was more.
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