Two timelines? Spoilers for Season 5

[Crewman47]

Do not enter if you haven't seen season 5 yet



Becuase we have people in 1977 and in 2008 are the events in 1977 running concurrently with the events in 2008, where whatever happens in 1977, like with Ben getting shot, will not take notice in the timeline until the same day in 2008 where Ben still exists? We know this sort of happened when Faraday spoke to Desmond when he was still in the Swan and Desmond didn't remember until that day in 2007 (or was that 2008?).

I know of the of the different theories going on that young Ben will resurrect, be saved or that it's an alternate timeline but what of Ben in 2008, do you suppose he'll be walking along and then all of a sudden clutch his chest and keel over?

 

[ExcaliburZeta]

It all exists in the same timeline...there is no alternate timeline. The time travel actually plays into the island's history from the get go, so when the islanders had already arrived there, all the stuff they did in the past was already a part of the island's past, despite them not going back in time until their future. (Wow time travel explanations are hard to word...)

It's like what happened with Charlotte and Faraday. At the end of Season 4 Miles hints to Charlotte that she had been on the island before, and Charlotte starts remembering things from her childhood. Before her death, she keeps mentioning that somebody warned her that "the island was death", and her last moment is spent informing Daniel that he was the one who warned her. This was always a part of her past, despite the island not transporting them back to that moment in time until later.

Faraday basically explained early this season that time can't be changed. Everything that happens, even things they do, will lead to the same results. Locke appearing to Richard in the past no doubt prompted Richard to seek out Locke as a child as we saw in an earlier episode. Though Sayid shooting Ben is shocking, somehow Ben will survive and it will no doubt play into why Ben has an interest in Sayid later on. Technically, from the first moment we met Ben, he should have had memories of Sayid already, since it was always part of his past.

Long-winded (and confusing) explanations aside, this is all playing out in laying out the same events in the one timeline. Just have to see how far things will go!

 

[Mr Light]

The next episode is called "Whatever Happened, Happened" I think that's confirmation enough of what Faraday the time travel expert has been saying all along, that you can't change the past because whatever you did/will do is what always happened.

 

[TheArsenal]

The rules - so far - say you can't change the past.

The impact of last night's ending will not be that Little Ben dies, but that adult Ben will now/soon be carrying around the new knowledge Sayid gunned him down when he was a boy trying to help him. That, will no doubt, have some interesting consequences.

 

[Mallet]

The impact of last night's ending will not be that Little Ben dies, but that adult Ben will now/soon be carrying around the new knowledge Sayid gunned him down when he was a boy trying to help him.

Actually Ben should have always know that. It won't be "new" to him, it will be something he always knew/remembered and which may explain why he has always acted the way he has. We just didn't know about it until now, Ben always remembered it.

The difference with Desmond is that he was alone for so long in the hatch he thought he just imagined the whole meeting with Feraday, like he was going insane from loneliness. Then years later he remembered it and realized that it actually happened and it wasn't a hallucination.

The problem is how it all plays out on TV with TPTB showing us stuff not as it unfolds, but rather when it has the greatest impact, most suspense, etc... This can make things seem to happen right after each other, or at the same time as other event when really it was at a different time.

 

[Spot's Meow]

^Even if Desmond really didn't remember it until the present day, when it suddenly just popped into his head, I think it has been established that Desmond is somehow different or "special" when it comes to this time travel/memory stuff. So I think that Ben did in fact remember this all along. That's what it seems like from the "rules" we've been shown so far, but they aren't that firmly in place so my opinion on this could easily change.

 

[TheArsenal]

The impact of last night's ending will not be that Little Ben dies, but that adult Ben will now/soon be carrying around the new knowledge Sayid gunned him down when he was a boy trying to help him.

Actually Ben should have always know that. It won't be "new" to him, it will be something he always knew/remembered and which may explain why he has always acted the way he has. We just didn't know about it until now, Ben always remembered it.

It is unclear to me whether these past events are completely accessible by the memory "before" they happened as we see them happen as a viewer, or if they somehow become "unclouded". Even so, from a story point of view, Ben always knowing Sayid shot him (as well as whatever knowledge he may have of Sawyer, Juliet, Jack etc. from the past) is far more interesting.

 

[chrisspringob]

Ben always remembered these events. I think it's clear that the whole reason Faraday repeatedly harped on the point "whatever happened, happened" was so that the writers could explain their rules of time travel to the audience. If we now found out that Faraday was wrong, it would just make things needlessly complicated.

 

[McCoy]

Right. If we see it happening in someone's past, it always happened that way. It's just that we the audience are only just finding out about it.

Except for Desmond. You can affect something in Desmond's past (like Daniel did) and it instantly becomes a memory for him in the present. But it didn't happen in his past until the moment the time traveler interfered.

 

[ITL]

^ And that's something I'd like to see explained in more detail. Why Des is so special.

 

[chrisspringob]

Except for Desmond. You can affect something in Desmond's past (like Daniel did) and it instantly becomes a memory for him in the present. But it didn't happen in his past until the moment the time traveler interfered.

Yeah, although really, I don't think the exception for Desmond makes any logical sense. I mean, I agree that the writers seem to have carved out an exception for Desmond, but I'm struggling to imagine how it could possibly work in a coherent way. For example, you write "it instantly becomes a memory for him in the present". But it wasn't instant. He didn't remember it until years later. It's just that we, the audience, were shown him remember it an instant later. How did the universe decide at what moment he was supposed to remember that?

Oh, and I just realized something, and I feel a bit foolish for not having thought of it before. Ben having been shot by Sayid, and it always being part of his history puts a rather interesting spin on his comment to Sayid in the Dominican Republic that Sayid is a killer, and killing is in his nature. Ben knows that from experience!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The next episode is called "Whatever Happened, Happened"

I think we need an episode called "What the Frak Happened?"

That can be the series finale.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

the rules do not apply to desmond. in another post somebody mentioned that they could either go the back to the future route with time travel like what heroes was doing or a chicken or an egg temporal paradox route. i think the latter will be the case. im curious to how the supernatural element with miles, possiby jacob applies.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Even so, from a story point of view, Ben always knowing Sayid shot him (as well as whatever knowledge he may have of Sawyer, Juliet, Jack etc. from the past) is far more interesting.

Didn't Ben appear to recognize Sayid and be taken off-guard momentarily the first time Sayid showed himself to Ben in season 2?

 

[chrisspringob]

the rules do not apply to desmond. in another post somebody mentioned that they could either go the back to the future route with time travel like what heroes was doing or a chicken or an egg temporal paradox route. i think the latter will be the case. im curious to how the supernatural element with miles, possiby jacob applies.

Yes, Faraday said that the normal rules don't apply to Desmond, but shouldn't there be some sort of logically coherent rules that *do* apply to Desmond, even if they're different from everyone else's rules? Or does Desmond simply operate on a "Whatever's convenient for the plot will happen" set of rules? Should we simply give up on trying to apply logic of any kind to any part of the story that involves Desmond?

 

[brianbeercan]

I'm sure there are, but we've hardly seen Desmond at all this season, so at this point we don't know what those rules are.

 

[Mr Light]

>>Didn't Ben appear to recognize Sayid and be taken off-guard momentarily the first time Sayid showed himself to Ben in season 2?>> Given the fact that Ben had the Swan under video surveillance the entire time they were in there, that would not have been the first time he saw Sayid's face. This was shown in "Expose" when Paulo snuck into the Pearl and caught Ben and Juliet watching them on the security monitors... before Ben was caught by Rosseau and brought to the Swan.

 

[TheArsenal]

Interestingly enough (mild spoiler for "Whatever Happened, Happened" follow) it looks increasing like Ben may not have recognized Sayid at all, but for reasons that have nothing to do with time travel.

 

[gh4chiefs]

Yes, Faraday said that the normal rules don't apply to Desmond, but shouldn't there be some sort of logically coherent rules that *do* apply to Desmond, even if they're different from everyone else's rules? Or does Desmond simply operate on a "Whatever's convenient for the plot will happen" set of rules?

I think you just answered your own question.

I'm not particularily thrilled with the LOST writers vision of time travel, but it is what it is.

 

[McCoy]

For example, you write "it instantly becomes a memory for him in the present". But it wasn't instant. He didn't remember it until years later. It's just that we, the audience, were shown him remember it an instant later. How did the universe decide at what moment he was supposed to remember that?

Ah, this is where it gets difficult to explain without a visual aid.

Remember that Desmond and Daniel started out as contemporaries in the story. Then at some point, Daniel traveled into the past to an earlier part of the timeline, while Desmond continued on from the point of Daniel's departure. Even though he's 30 years in the past, he's still moving linearly through time, just from an earlier starting point.

The interaction Daniel initiated in the 70s was instantly a memory for Desmond in the 2000s. I wonder if this helps to visualize what I'm trying to say:

== 2000s
* flash
---- 1970s
V interaction
^ memory

Daniel ============*-----------------V---->

Desmond ========================^===>