VOY: In Retrospect

[neogothboy74]

I think they went too much in the predictable direction with Unimatrix Zero. It was almost like they just wanted an excuse to have the Queen spouting, in essence, 'off with their heads!'

I really strongly disliked Unimatrix Zero the first time around. I actually think I missed Part II because I simply didn't care. When I went back and watched it on DVD I enjoyed it more. That's not to say that it's not terribly flawed, because it is....but I feel like there is a good story in there...somewhere. I think most of the flaws with that story are in execution rather than conception. And as I've said elsewhere, I rate Voyager episodes against Voyager episodes, so this one rated a lot higher than some. Like...I give Voyager more points if it's not dull, or if the production design is kicking ass. And I also felt that on dvd, seeing the 2 parts together helped my enjoyment of that story because as a cliffhanger this episode was an utter failure. The potential was there, and it was like they just didn't even try to make us think that the characters were in any danger - which made the image of assimilated crewmembers all the more confusing. I remember ranting about the Voyager writers after it ended.

I'd also, on a side note, say that I enjoy Unimatrix Zero a lot more than TNG's "Descent". I read the novel of "Descent" before the 2nd part aired and was all set to love it, but then the episode didn't cut it. In the book, Deanna comes off better than she often does on the series, Lore comes off as a better villain, and Hugh plays a much larger role, with better arguments. The actor that played Hugh later had a recurring role on Nip/Tuck as trans woman. And he currently has a recurring role on The Closer. Um...end of side note. lol

 

[brcarthey]

I think they went too much in the predictable direction with Unimatrix Zero. It was almost like they just wanted an excuse to have the Queen spouting, in essence, 'off with their heads!'

I really strongly disliked Unimatrix Zero the first time around. I actually think I missed Part II because I simply didn't care. When I went back and watched it on DVD I enjoyed it more. That's not to say that it's not terribly flawed, because it is....but I feel like there is a good story in there...somewhere. I think most of the flaws with that story are in execution rather than conception. And as I've said elsewhere, I rate Voyager episodes against Voyager episodes, so this one rated a lot higher than some. Like...I give Voyager more points if it's not dull, or if the production design is kicking ass. And I also felt that on dvd, seeing the 2 parts together helped my enjoyment of that story because as a cliffhanger this episode was an utter failure. The potential was there, and it was like they just didn't even try to make us think that the characters were in any danger - which made the image of assimilated crewmembers all the more confusing. I remember ranting about the Voyager writers after it ended.

I'd also, on a side note, say that I enjoy Unimatrix Zero a lot more than TNG's "Descent". I read the novel of "Descent" before the 2nd part aired and was all set to love it, but then the episode didn't cut it. In the book, Deanna comes off better than she often does on the series, Lore comes off as a better villain, and Hugh plays a much larger role, with better arguments. The actor that played Hugh later had a recurring role on Nip/Tuck as trans woman. And he currently has a recurring role on The Closer. Um...end of side note. lol

a little bit of trivia...i read that TPTB originally had seven meeting up with her dad in unimatrix zero instead of axum. therefore, the story would've been more of a redemption story with dad saving his daughter instead of a love story b/t seven and axum. would that have been better or worse?

also, i'll have to go back and read the last issue of the star trek mag devoted to voyager b/c in it bryan fuller mentions his thoughts on unimatrix zero and how his original idea got shot down then morphed into what we saw as this two part episode.

 

[Praetor]

I really strongly disliked Unimatrix Zero the first time around. I actually think I missed Part II because I simply didn't care. When I went back and watched it on DVD I enjoyed it more. That's not to say that it's not terribly flawed, because it is....but I feel like there is a good story in there...somewhere. I think most of the flaws with that story are in execution rather than conception.

Agreed - to me the idea of some drones creating their own mental 'sub-network' like a natural reaction/evolution to fight the Hive was the interesting part.

And I also felt that on dvd, seeing the 2 parts together helped my enjoyment of that story because as a cliffhanger this episode was an utter failure. The potential was there, and it was like they just didn't even try to make us think that the characters were in any danger - which made the image of assimilated crewmembers all the more confusing. I remember ranting about the Voyager writers after it ended.

Also agreed. Were we really expected to believe they weren't coming back? I never did.

a little bit of trivia...i read that TPTB originally had seven meeting up with her dad in unimatrix zero instead of axum. therefore, the story would've been more of a redemption story with dad saving his daughter instead of a love story b/t seven and axum. would that have been better or worse?

also, i'll have to go back and read the last issue of the star trek mag devoted to voyager b/c in it bryan fuller mentions his thoughts on unimatrix zero and how his original idea got shot down then morphed into what we saw as this two part episode.

That is so much better for me. The Axum Secret Romance (tm) almost single-handedly undermined Seven's character for me. She's having such a hard time regaining her humanity yet she spent years in love with some dude in dreamland? Argh, another miss!

 

[neogothboy74]

a little bit of trivia...i read that TPTB originally had seven meeting up with her dad in unimatrix zero instead of axum. therefore, the story would've been more of a redemption story with dad saving his daughter instead of a love story b/t seven and axum. would that have been better or worse?

That is so much better for me. The Axum Secret Romance (tm) almost single-handedly undermined Seven's character for me. She's having such a hard time regaining her humanity yet she spent years in love with some dude in dreamland? Argh, another miss!

I think the father angle could have worked nicely, especially after what I saw as a rather weak appearance as a drone in "Dark Frontier", but I actually enjoyed the romance with Axum. The idea that Seven had this rich life in the collective that she can't tap into in the here and now resonated with me, and fit in with the concept rather well. And I liked the tragedy that by rebelling they were losing one another; not just Seven & Axum, but all of them. And even though I loved the chemistry between Axum & Seven, I think it's to the writers credit that they didn't bring him back - though in light of the later Chokotay ick factor, I almost wish they had.

 

[brcarthey]

as i stated earlier, bryan fuller discussed "unimatrix zero" in the latest star trek mag. issue. he wanted to see the crew get home in a different way, but his idea got shot down. however, elements of his idea got incorporated into UZ. here's what he had to say about it:

"the idea that we had talked about in the room that i was so excited by - and parts of it came out in "unimatrix zero" a little bit - was janeway allowing the crew and voyager to be assimilated, everybody to become borg, and then from the inside out, with the doctor's help, take over the borg cube. so all the of the borg realize that the crew just trojan-horsed them and they get across the finish line in a borg cube that's battling borg cubes chasing them. and as the borg cube is exploding, the docking bay opens up and voyager flies out and goes right to earth as all the borg ships blow up."

he went on to say how even though the borg were introduced on TNG, fuller really felt the borg belonged to voyager, assimilating them into their own mythology and owning them b/c voyager was in borg territory.

 

[TheGodBen]

"the idea that we had talked about in the room that i was so excited by - and parts of it came out in "unimatrix zero" a little bit - was janeway allowing the crew and voyager to be assimilated, everybody to become borg, and then from the inside out, with the doctor's help, take over the borg cube. so all the of the borg realize that the crew just trojan-horsed them and they get across the finish line in a borg cube that's battling borg cubes chasing them. and as the borg cube is exploding, the docking bay opens up and voyager flies out and goes right to earth as all the borg ships blow up."

And my worst fears about the potential Bryan Fuller helmed Trek series have just been confirmed.

 

[Praetor]

Yeah that's just a bit... much.

 

[brcarthey]

"the idea that we had talked about in the room that i was so excited by - and parts of it came out in "unimatrix zero" a little bit - was janeway allowing the crew and voyager to be assimilated, everybody to become borg, and then from the inside out, with the doctor's help, take over the borg cube. so all the of the borg realize that the crew just trojan-horsed them and they get across the finish line in a borg cube that's battling borg cubes chasing them. and as the borg cube is exploding, the docking bay opens up and voyager flies out and goes right to earth as all the borg ships blow up."

And my worst fears about the potential Bryan Fuller helmed Trek series have just been confirmed.

how so?? my worst fear will come true with him if he helms the next trek series...setting it in the revamped TOS era.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well I have no strong feelings about Bryan Fuller because I honestly don't remember most of the episodes he was involved in, so when I heard the news that he wanted to make a new Trek series I was on the fence.

I have about 1,000 complaints against Endgame and one of the things that really irritated me was that whole segment where Voyager shot its way out of a sphere. That really irritated me for some reason. And one of the problems I have with Unimatrix Zero is how Janeway and the others do that Trojan horse assimilation thing. If both of those were his idea then it worries me that any Trek project he would get his hands on would contain stupid crap like that.

I'm just looking at the episode credits he has earned now and the only ones which stand out to me are DS9's Darkness and the Light which ended up being written by Ron Moore, and Voyager's Living Witness which was co-written by Braga and Menosky. I'm not going to judge the guy before I get around to reviewing the later seasons of Voyager, but right now I am leaning against him taking over Trek.

 

[brcarthey]

^fair enough

 

[Praetor]

Well I have no strong feelings about Bryan Fuller because I honestly don't remember most of the episodes he was involved in, so when I heard the news that he wanted to make a new Trek series I was on the fence.

He seems to have a weird fascination with death. He did both 'Dead Like Me.' and 'Pushing Daisies' and wanted the Voyager crew to die and be reborn as Kobali in 'Workforce.'

I have about 1,000 complaints against Endgame and one of the things that really irritated me was that whole segment where Voyager shot its way out of a sphere. That really irritated me for some reason. And one of the problems I have with Unimatrix Zero is how Janeway and the others do that Trojan horse assimilation thing. If both of those were his idea then it worries me that any Trek project he would get his hands on would contain stupid crap like that.

Agreed. That end part of Endgame was confusing and barely made sense, visually and logically.

I'm just looking at the episode credits he has earned now and the only ones which stand out to me are DS9's Darkness and the Light which ended up being written by Ron Moore, and Voyager's Living Witness which was co-written by Braga and Menosky. I'm not going to judge the guy before I get around to reviewing the later seasons of Voyager, but right now I am leaning against him taking over Trek.

Yeah, he seems to be a better idea guy than actual writer. One of those people that needs a co-writer to anchor him. You know, like Brannon Braga.

 

[TheGodBen]

He seems to have a weird fascination with death. He did both 'Dead Like Me.' and 'Pushing Daisies' and wanted the Voyager crew to die and be reborn as Kobali in 'Workforce.'

Looking at some of his other episodes you can see he did Course: Oblivion where the goo-crew all died, Barge of the Dead where B'Elanna explores the afterlife, and Mortal Coil where Neelix has a crisis of faith after coming back from the dead. He definitely has some sort of fascination with death.

 

[Praetor]

Ironically, I liked all three of those episodes (even 'Mortal Coil') but didn't realize he wrote them.

 

[Lynx]

Well I have no strong feelings about Bryan Fuller because I honestly don't remember most of the episodes he was involved in, so when I heard the news that he wanted to make a new Trek series I was on the fence.

I have about 1,000 complaints against Endgame and one of the things that really irritated me was that whole segment where Voyager shot its way out of a sphere. That really irritated me for some reason. And one of the problems I have with Unimatrix Zero is how Janeway and the others do that Trojan horse assimilation thing. If both of those were his idea then it worries me that any Trek project he would get his hands on would contain stupid crap like that.

I'm just looking at the episode credits he has earned now and the only ones which stand out to me are DS9's Darkness and the Light which ended up being written by Ron Moore, and Voyager's Living Witness which was co-written by Braga and Menosky. I'm not going to judge the guy before I get around to reviewing the later seasons of Voyager, but right now I am leaning against him taking over Trek.

I don't like Bryan Fuller.

The main reason for my dislike is that he and Braga came up with the "Fury" story. I remember that they were actually bragging about writing that story during Christmas Eve. I found that disgusting since the whole episode and the whole idea for coming up with that episode is totally against everything Christmas stands for and also considering the fact that there was a campaign going at that time for having Kes re-instated as a regular main character. Or to make it short, it was a horrible "Christmas present" to the Kes fans, especially considering the fact that the original plan from the "Dynamic Duo" was to kill off Kes at the end of the episode.

I won't forgive them for that.

Besides that, he's a lousy writer who only seem capable of coming up with weird stories about weird people and weird events. I don't think that he did contribute anything to Voyager.

 

[Praetor]

While I can understand your reasons for disliking him, clearly he did have some good ideas.

 

[neogothboy74]

DS9's Darkness and the Light

I love that episode of DS9. It made some really interesting choices. It killed off 2 well liked recurring characters. The casting of the minor characters was well done; their roles were well played. The transporter death and it's fall out was so grusome for Trek, that the episode forced me out of my comfort zone and scared me a little. Kira's reactions to it all were incredible. And the scene where she tells Odo about her first firefight as a member of the Shakaar...just kills me every time. And I loved that she didn't apologise for her actions when faced with the murderer. Also loved that they showed the Defiant from an odd angle in orbit at the end, as it has often annoyed me in Trek that we always seem to approach the ships 'right side up' when there is no up or down in space.

Sorry to get off track. lol

Um....Bryan Fuller. I like him. And I don't mind that his efforts so often deal with death. We all die. We all know we're going to die. We all know people that will die. Yet most people seem to ignore this fact. Death is all around us, and there are as many ways to explore that as there are stories to tell about love or friendship or treks through space. If that's his thing, more power to him. I loved 'Pushing Daisies'. My friends loved 'Dead Like Me', but I've just never found the time to watch more than the first few episodes, which were ok. And his suggestion for 'Unimatrix Zero', while very intense, sounds a lot like something that would get thrown out in a writers room. I'm sure lots of crazy ideas pop into their heads and get thrown out in those sessions; at least I hope they do. That's the kind of creative experiment where I want the writers to express themselves without restraint, because when they then take a step back from that, and temper their suggestions with common sense - that's when I'm guessing some of the better episodes come into being. That's just how I see it happening. I have friends that have similar writing groups where this is the way it happens, and I've watched a lot of behind the scenes things. It sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[Seven of Five]

I like Bryan Fuller.

Anyway, Voyager, when it started, had the greatest potential of them all. A ship stranded away from friendly faces and repair stations? Two crews that oppose ideologically? I was really excited, but as many people have already expressed, it just never, for me, gelled. I would find it particularly frustrating to be watching DS9's arc go off in interesting directions, whilst Voyager pretty much remained rigidly TNG-esque.

Time and age eventually lets you see things much differently. Voyager was a troubled production from the start by being on the asshat of a network, UPN. The kind of freedom Ira Steven Behr and the guys on DS9 got just was not available - UPN wanted TNG, so in essence that is what they got, with the trouble being that some writers had already been around TNG for a while. It was hard for the writers to keep things fresh, I guess. Evil Brannon Braga himself wanted a season-long 'Year of Hell,' which the network nixed, what does that tell you? Creatively hampered? Maybe I'm just going soft.

When I rewatched Voyager last year I went into it knowing all of that, knowing how the show turned out, knowing how I'd been disappointed, and I enjoyed a lot more than I thought I had right to. It's not my favourite series but if you take it for what it is, you can enjoy it. At the end of the day, it's the one Trek show I watched start to finish as it aired in realtime, so it holds that special feeling I only sort of ever had with DS9. And as seven seasons is a relatively long time to be on television, you can develop a fondness for characters even if they are written inconsistently sometimes - B'Elanna, EMH, Janeway and Seven in particular are favourites.

So as someone that was totally frustrated back when Voyager was airing, I've changed my opinion. I still don't rate it as highly as TOS/TNG/DS9, but I can still enjoy watching it. I'll stop rambling now.

 

[neogothboy74]

I agree with almost everything 'Seven of Five' just said.