The Problem of Edith Keeler

[M'Sharak]

This thread can be renamed: "The complete non-issue with Edith Keeler"

Au contraire, mon ami, this thread can be renamed, "how to pay Harlan Ellison several hundred thousand dollars and dog around for a script for a sequel!"

Can't blame me for trying can you?

I suppose not.

For myself, I like Harlan, and if he can find a way to make a buck writing an Edith Keeler story to fit whatever new wrinkles this movie may create, then more power to him. I'm not seeing it as a great necessity, though.

Besides, it's my 50th birthday today and those graverobbers from the AARP sent me a card in the mail. Perhaps I should forward it to Hitler?

Speaking as one who's already been there: Happy Birthday; it ain't the end of the world. And go ahead and round-file the card from AARP -- there'll be plenty more where that came from.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...Besides, it's my 50th birthday today and those graverobbers from the AARP sent me a card in the mail...

Happy 50th birthday to you and Barbie.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/06/AR2009030602038.html

 

[MacGyvr]

I think just about everyone on this board has gone off the deep end expecting the earth to become square once this movie comes out. People, we don't KNOW anything. The ENTIRE timeline may be completely restored by the end of the movie. And even if it isn't, why expect anything other than that the events we know of from TOS and other canon sources will play out just like they are supposed to, with only slight variations?

 

[Captain Gandalf]

I think just about everyone on this board has gone off the deep end expecting the earth to become square once this movie comes out

Not everyone. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna enjoy this movie; after all, it is just a movie, and it's a movie about Star Trek.

 

[Nowhere Man]

I think just about everyone on this board has gone off the deep end expecting the earth to become square once this movie comes out. People, we don't KNOW anything. The ENTIRE timeline may be completely restored by the end of the movie. And even if it isn't, why expect anything other than that the events we know of from TOS and other canon sources will play out just like they are supposed to, with only slight variations?

Already said that , pretty much

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I think just about everyone on this board has gone off the deep end expecting the earth to become square once this movie comes out. People, we don't KNOW anything. The ENTIRE timeline may be completely restored by the end of the movie. And even if it isn't, why expect anything other than that the events we know of from TOS and other canon sources will play out just like they are supposed to, with only slight variations?

I agree. I know what Orci said about the "alternate timeline", but still feel that the events of this film will smoothly segue (mostly) into what we know is good ol' canonical TOS.

 

[Phily B]

About as much of a problem as Zefram Cochrane in TOS.

 

[dkehler]

Given that Starfleet appears to exist in the movie timeline, it proves that Edith Keeler must have died at the appropriate time one way or the other.

 

[miraclefan]

Quoteing Austin Powers/ Great NOW I'm crosseyed.( God time travel hurts!)

 

[pookha]

I thought she originally DID die, and it was McCoy who screwed things over by going back and then kirk/spock had to fix it by making sure she was killed?

yep...if bones had not injected himself and went locco she never would have been saved.
jim and spock had to reset history.
and we dont know if they themselves didnt mess things up or rather bones.
with the part he played in the death of the vagrant.
who knows that man may have later straightened out his life and did something important.
or had children who did.


and really in the long run a lot of the same things may happen after all.

 

[Stag]

I think in this timeline she still gets hit by the ice cream truck, but McCoy puts her in Chris Pike's beeping wheel chair - the Hoveround 2300

beeeeep

beeeeep

 

[Australis]

I thought she originally DID die, and it was McCoy who screwed things over by going back and then kirk/spock had to fix it by making sure she was killed?

yep...if bones had not injected himself and went locco she never would have been saved.
jim and spock had to reset history.
and we don't know if they themselves didn't mess things up or rather bones.
with the part he played in the death of the vagrant.
who knows that man may have later straightened out his life and did something important.
or had children who did.

and really in the long run a lot of the same things may happen after all.

Exactly what I was going to say.

The inciting event was McCoy saving her first, not them letting her die.

 

[Kryton]

I totally SWEAR I would cut off my left nut to see a whole episode with Kirk arguing logic against the Donut of Forever!

 

[krako]

I don't think this movie is about 'altered timelines' at all, but instead is about the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. In the many-worlds interpretation, there are universes in which Edith Keeler lived and universes wherein she died. And many in which she never existed at all (including ours).

 

[section9]

Au contraire, mon ami, this thread can be renamed, "how to pay Harlan Ellison several hundred thousand dollars and dog around for a script for a sequel!"

Even if they wanted to fix this "problem", why would anyone pay Harlan Ellison anything? It's not like a sequel or a new version of the story couldn't be written by someone who's cheaper.

Remember when the first scripts were being bandied about during the Writer's Strike, and Orci and Kurtzman couldn't write anything. There were rumors that Time Travel was involved and that the Guardian of Forever was in the Film. That's Ellison's personal property, along with the character of Edith Keeler.

Ellison does NOT have a healthy relationship with Paramount because of the script revisions over the original. Ellison claims, and I believe him, that if the original characters were ever used again (which I doubt they ever would be) he or his estate would have to be paid a royalty.

At least according to Ellison.

 

[section9]

I don't think this movie is about 'altered timelines' at all, but instead is about the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. In the many-worlds interpretation, there are universes in which Edith Keeler lived and universes wherein she died. And many in which she never existed at all (including ours).

Oh, here you go spoiling things.

 

[M'Sharak]

Au contraire, mon ami, this thread can be renamed, "how to pay Harlan Ellison several hundred thousand dollars and dog around for a script for a sequel!"

Even if they wanted to fix this "problem", why would anyone pay Harlan Ellison anything? It's not like a sequel or a new version of the story couldn't be written by someone who's cheaper.

Remember when the first scripts were being bandied about during the Writer's Strike, and Orci and Kurtzman couldn't write anything. There were rumors that Time Travel was involved and that the Guardian of Forever was in the Film. That's Ellison's personal property, along with the character of Edith Keeler.

Ellison does NOT have a healthy relationship with Paramount because of the script revisions over the original. Ellison claims, and I believe him, that if the original characters were ever used again (which I doubt they ever would be) he or his estate would have to be paid a royalty.

At least according to Ellison.

Who has the irritating (to some people) habit of being right, when he says something is so, and further of having the facts to back it up (I've seen him quoted talking about more specific contract details regarding CotEoF, but I don't recall at the moment where.) However, in that particular instance (during the writers' strike) it quickly became apparent that the Guardian was not and had never been considered as a figure in the story told by this movie; the whole to-do was no more than a rumor, and the question of whether Harlan was owed a royalty was moot.

If, hypothetically speaking, there were to be a new story using characters from that episode, then there would most likely need to be some negotiation with Ellison and/or his agent.

One other detail: The script which was used for the movie had already been completed by the time the Guardian of Forever rumor broke, unless I'm mistaken. The only way in which the writers' strike had any effect on the movie was that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman were ethically prohibited from making any changes or revisions to the script they had.

 

[pookha]

^^^ the above is correct./
normally as a movie shoots revisions can be made to specific lines ect but they couldnt do this with star trek due to the strike.

some movies stopped production totally due to the restriction.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I think the "Guardian of Forever Rumor" was born because someone confused the plot of STXI with the plot the fan film 'Star Trek: Of Gods and Men', which was being made at the same time STXI was being written.

'Of Gods and Men' is about

Spoiler: 'Of Gods and Men' Plot Spoilers

someone (Charlie Evans, aka Charlie X) using the Guardian of Forever to go back in time and kill Kirk's mother before Kirk was born, thus changing the timeline.

I wonder if Harlen Ellison was asked permission by the 'Of Gods and Men' people to use the GOF.

 

[Takeru]

Ellison does NOT have a healthy relationship with Paramount because of the script revisions over the original. Ellison claims, and I believe him, that if the original characters were ever used again (which I doubt they ever would be) he or his estate would have to be paid a royalty.

At least according to Ellison.

Yes, Ellsion created these characters and he would get royalties (just like a lot of other writers who created a character, that's why T'Pol wasn't T'Pau and Tom Paris wasn't Nick Locarno), but he doesn't own them, I'm pretty sure there's no way he could stop Paramount from using them against his will.