Poll: Janeway & Gender

[Thrawn]

her behavior in Golden's books, though, I found to be bubbly and lacking the depth or force her character should've had.

Someone relieved to have got her people home?

And she loves her ex-boyfriend's wife! And her new position! And her crew! And giving Chakotay Voyager! Etc, etc...

There isn't a single moment of pain or even so much as doubt from her character in 4 whole books. She turned into a cheerleader.

At least, that's how I saw it; I didn't like those books much.

 

[Therin of Andor]

There isn't a single moment of pain or even so much as doubt from her character in 4 whole books. She turned into a cheerleader.

There's another admiral becoming a new Borg Queen, unleashing a new Borg threat - and Seven, the Doctor and Icheb are being unfairly treated like criminals. I don't recall Janeway being pain free.

 

[Thrawn]

There isn't a single moment of pain or even so much as doubt from her character in 4 whole books. She turned into a cheerleader.

There's another admiral becoming a new Borg Queen, unleashing a new Borg threat - and Seven, the Doctor and Icheb are being unfairly treated like criminals. I don't recall Janeway being pain free.

Indeed, the novels' events would seem to indicate it would've been a tale of high drama, but I found the writing so simplistic and the emotions so shallow that I never got the sense that anything the slightest bit dangerous was occurring, or that Janeway was even perturbed.

It's not a problem with Janeway's characterization so much as Golden's writing; it was all so shallow and lame. (And also completely subjective, so I'm happy if you had a different experience; I'm just saying how it read to me.)

 

[BillJ]

In the end it really didn't matter if Janeway was alive or not. She obviously wasn't in Pockets plans due to the events of Nemesis (being promoted to Admiral). So she was either going to be dead or ignored. Unless they had her get in trouble and get busted back to Captain, which was already done with Kirk.

Pocket felt the best way to go was to off the character. Be able to get some emotional impact off of the character before going forward rather than leaving her sit in San Francisco.

Plus in all the arguing one thing has been forgotten. This was approved by Paula Block at CBS Consumer Products. Nothing Star Trek gets published without her approval (if I understand the process correctly). So I don't think gender bias was at play here.

 

[Square]

her behavior in Golden's books, though, I found to be bubbly and lacking the depth or force her character should've had.

Someone relieved to have got her people home?

And she loves her ex-boyfriend's wife! And her new position! And her crew! And giving Chakotay Voyager! Etc, etc...

There isn't a single moment of pain or even so much as doubt from her character in 4 whole books. She turned into a cheerleader.

At least, that's how I saw it; I didn't like those books much.

Exactly.

Golden strikes me as the type of woman who has a large collection of dolls and stuffed animals. Her books are entirely too "cute." About the only thing she did correctly was ditching C/7, but even having Chakotard and Janeway cuddling infront of the Tevlik (sp?) memorial was way OOC.

There were better follow-up stories in the Strange New Worlds books.

 

[Lynx]

Someone relieved to have got her people home?

And she loves her ex-boyfriend's wife! And her new position! And her crew! And giving Chakotay Voyager! Etc, etc...

There isn't a single moment of pain or even so much as doubt from her character in 4 whole books. She turned into a cheerleader.

At least, that's how I saw it; I didn't like those books much.

Exactly.

Golden strikes me as the type of woman who has a large collection of dolls and stuffed animals. Her books are entirely too "cute." About the only thing she did correctly was ditching C/7, but even having Chakotard and Janeway cuddling infront of the Tevlik (sp?) memorial was way OOC.

There were better follow-up stories in the Strange New Worlds books.

Hmmm......I think that those comments are actually rude to Mrs.Golden.

At least she don't kill off main characters just for the sake of killing them off.

Even if I wasn't too fond of the scenario in the "relaunch" books, I did actually appreciate "Marooned" and "The Murdered Sun". "Marooned" is a masterpiece, one of my definite favorites and "The Murdered Sun" is great too.

Personally I wish that Golden would have stayed in charge of the Voyager relaunch books.

As for Strange New Worlds, I've read fanfiction which is much better than the stories in those books. I bought one of those books some years ago and found a story which was ten time worse than "Fury" when it came to character destruction of a certain characte. I more and less gave away the book on Ebay just to get rid of it.

 

[Thrawn]

At least she don't kill off main characters just for the sake of killing them off.

As compared to who? No one has done that. The reasons for Janeway's death have been explained dozens of times by now, and it wasn't "just for the sake of killing them off" by any stretch of the imagination.

Personally I wish that Golden would have stayed in charge of the Voyager relaunch books.

You've said several times that you didn't like them very much, either. Why change your mind now?

 

[Lynx]

At least she don't kill off main characters just for the sake of killing them off.

As compared to who? No one has done that. The reasons for Janeway's death have been explained dozens of times by now, and it wasn't "just for the sake of killing them off" by any stretch of the imagination.

Personally I wish that Golden would have stayed in charge of the Voyager relaunch books.

You've said several times that you didn't like them very much, either. Why change your mind now?

Well, I'm not that satisfied with those explanations.

As for my opinion about the relaunch books, with Golden in charge, there was at least hope. I had a nice exchange of views with her some years ago and I know that she had a lot of affection for the characters.

Besides that, most of the scenario in the relaunch books which I disliked weren't entirely Golden's fault, they were created by those in charge of the TV series.

 

[Thrawn]

Well, I'm not that satisfied with those explanations.

That's a separate issue. Disagree all you want, but don't misrepresent reality. Again, there's plenty of real things to disagree about, let's refrain from making shit up.

As for my opinion about the relaunch books, with Golden in charge, there was at least hope. I had a nice exchange of views with her some years ago and I know that she had a lot of affection for the characters.

Besides that, most of the scenario in the relaunch books which I disliked weren't entirely Golden's fault, they were created by those in charge of the TV series.

Fair enough, but if author affection for the characters is your only judge, Kirsten Beyer has obvious affection for all of the characters as well.

It's only YOU that seems to think affection for Janeway is completely antithetical to not resurrecting her.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, I'm not that satisfied with those explanations.

No surprise there.

As for my opinion about the relaunch books, with Golden in charge, there was at least hope. I had a nice exchange of views with her some years ago and I know that she had a lot of affection for the characters.

Which hasn't stopped people assuming (loudly and often) that Golden hated Tuvok, because she'd shunted him out of her main plotline. For two duologies.

I'm frustrated that most of these ongoing VOY/Janeway complaints seem to demand that ST tie-ins must come with some guarantee that any variation or character arc must be settled fast, or there at least be assurances that major changes will be reversed by a certain date. In the TV episodes, unless it was a two-parter, almost every shocking event had to be "repaired" because the regular cast had five-year contracts. Novels written after the end of a series can afford to be different. Each of the relaunches have been designed to permit longer story arcs, and yet I detect a distinct lack of patience and trust.

Being TV tie-ins, the story is never going to go so far from the parent show's status quo as to be unidentifiable and, with a little patience, most of ST's character deaths are traditionally undone. When your scope for what makes a novel successful (ie. strong focus on a youthful, long-lived Kes, everyone back on the ship like a happy family, and an alive Janeway), you're bound to hit disappointment. Over and over again.

What you want is seen as stagnation and repetition to others.

Besides that, most of the scenario in the relaunch books which I disliked weren't entirely Golden's fault, they were created by those in charge of the TV series.

We know you think that. Your view has not changed since these threads started several months ago. And yet you keep restating them.

 

[Gorf]

At least she don't kill off main characters just for the sake of killing them off.

As compared to who? No one has done that. The reasons for Janeway's death have been explained dozens of times by now, and it wasn't "just for the sake of killing them off" by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah...one interpretation has been explained to us a million times, but that doesn't mean that we've bought said reasons.

They may make sense to you because you believe this created a great story and more to come, but to those of us who tend to disagree with you...well...it seems more like a senseless killing just for the heck of it.

Just when you thought you were rid of me ha...

 

[Thrawn]

At least she don't kill off main characters just for the sake of killing them off.

As compared to who? No one has done that. The reasons for Janeway's death have been explained dozens of times by now, and it wasn't "just for the sake of killing them off" by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah...one interpretation has been explained to us a million times, but that doesn't mean that we've bought said reasons.

They may make sense to you because you believe this created a great story and more to come, but to those of us who tend to disagree with you...well...it seems more like a senseless killing just for the heck of it.

Just when you thought you were rid of me ha...

There are no "interpretations" of the reasons that have explicitly been given by the people who made the decisions; unless they are lying about their motivations, they are statements of fact. Whether you "buy" them or not is immaterial.

 

[Steve Roby]

Which hasn't stopped people assuming (loudly and often) that Golden hated Tuvok, because she'd shunted him out of her main plotline. For two duologies.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone stating that, exactly, with any degree of amplitude or frequency. I know that I and at least one or two other people suggested that Golden shunted Tuvok out of her main storylines because she didn't seem to be comfortable writing rational, emotionally controlled characters. That wasn't due solely to Tuvok's absence (and, IIRC, Seven didn't have a lot to do either); the hyperemotionalism of the new counselor on Voyager was a significant factor. I also remember thinking that we saw very little of any of the characters' thought processes, but we saw a whole lot about what they felt.

Combine an emphasis on characters' emotional reactions and the relative absence of less emotional characters, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that Tuvok probably just wasn't one of her favourite characters. But I don't remember anyone accusing her of hating Tuvok.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think that Golden had anything against Tuvok. He gets a lot of action in "Marooned".

As for Seven Of Nine, didn't Golden write a book about her?

 

[rfmcdpei]

There are no "interpretations" of the reasons that have explicitly been given by the people who made the decisions; unless they are lying about their motivations, they are statements of fact. Whether you "buy" them or not is immaterial.

Hear, hear.

 

[Trent Roman]

IMHO, the moment that Pocket starts trying to "please" people, that is the moment that the quality of the work will start to plummet.

...have I mentioned, recently, my opinion of Before Dishonour?

In all fairness, Janeway's characterization in those duologies was pretty terrible, but not for the reasons put forth in this thread. As far as I'm aware, her behavior in BD is criticized for being overly risky and pigheaded (which I disagree with completely, I'm just saying that's what I see people posting); her behavior in Golden's books, though, I found to be bubbly and lacking the depth or force her character should've had. Sort of exactly the opposite problem, really.

Yep. From the schoolgirlish Janeway of Sweet Valley Trek (I still remember, years later, Janeway giggling in No Man's Land) to the embittered Janeway of Battlestar Trek. Sad that Janeway can't seem to be written outside of such extremes.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Gorf]

There are no "interpretations" of the reasons that have explicitly been given by the people who made the decisions; unless they are lying about their motivations, they are statements of fact. Whether you "buy" them or not is immaterial.

Fine, mince words. You choose to agree with these people's decisions because you believe in them and the idea that it made a better story. However, that doesn't mean that this is the case for everybody as you must know by now.

I agree - someone in authority made the decision, I'm not disputing that. I'm simply disputing whether it was a good idea or not and repeating said decision time and time again is not going to make it any better - no matter who made it.

People in authority also make mistakes.

 

[Thrawn]

Gorf, you've again misunderstood my point completely.

There is a difference between agreeing with and merely understanding someone else's point of view. If you say "they killed her off for the sake of killing her off", it is *factually* false, and you do everyone involved a disservice by saying so. If you say "I don't think the reasons they gave for killing her off were valid ones", then no one will dispute your right to say so, as that is an opinion. It's a small difference, but a crucial one.

You said "it seems like a senseless killing just for the heck of it." I don't care how much it "seems" like it; the fact is that it wasn't. You may not like the reasons, but you can't pretend they don't exist.

We're all here to talk about these things because we care about them and we respect the people that have created them. No one is going to like every creative choice, and arguments like these are part and parcel of being fans in the first place; it's why we're here on this board at all, in many cases. But let's not deliberately misrepresent people. We have enough to disagree about as it is.

 

[Gorf]

Thrawn, I apologize for English not being my native language. Meet me on my terms or rather in my language and maybe I'll do a bit better.

 

[Thrawn]

Thrawn, I apologize for English not being my native language. Meet me on my terms or rather in my language and maybe I'll do a bit better.

No problem; I apologize if I'm ever confusing.