ST:TMP - Lost Footage from the Trench

[Christopher]

I've just gone over the screencaps, and there are some shots where the nacelles are illuminated when the ship is at relative rest, e.g.:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/themotionpicture0860.jpg

Judging from the screencaps, I suspect the illumination indicates that the warp engines are functional and online, not necessarily that they're in actual use.

 

[Joker]

At rest relative to V'Ger perhaps, which is moving at warp?

 

[cardinal biggles]

elton's right on this one; re-watch the end of the film when the Enterprise goes to warp — the inner grilles don't light up until the ship actually jumps to warp speed, which is coordinated with the high-pitched engine sound effect and the beginning of the "rainbow tunnel" visual effect.

V'Ger was moving toward Earth at warp speed, and didn't begin to decelerate until it reached the solar system, so the Enterprise would have to be at warp speed as well, at least while they're moving through the cloud, or else they'd have been left far behind.

 

[trevanian]

elton's right on this one; re-watch the end of the film when the Enterprise goes to warp — the inner grilles don't light up until the ship actually jumps to warp speed, which is coordinated with the high-pitched engine sound effect and the beginning of the "rainbow tunnel" visual effect.

V'Ger was moving toward Earth at warp speed, and didn't begin to decelerate until it reached the solar system, so the Enterprise would have to be at warp speed as well, at least while they're moving through the cloud, or else they'd have been left far behind.

That's always been my belief, but lots of tech guys here go on about being inside vger's warpfield, which sounds like hooey to me. I figure that whole time Sulu is making his approach he is adjusting speed that are teeny tiny variations in warp while just meters away (too bad it wasn't directed to suggest that, would have been suspenseful instead of ... stately.)

Addon: Just saw CHIRSTOPEHR mentioned the warpfield thing.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Yeah, 500 meters over the surface of V'Ger at warp speed... it should have been like trying to keep a 747 level ten feet above the Grand Canyon. Sulu's reaction — "Five hundred meters?!?" — almost sells it, but the lack of any follow-up either in the bridge scenes or in the visual effects then proceeds to squander it all over again.

 

[Christopher]

At rest relative to V'Ger perhaps, which is moving at warp?

Yes, that's the point. It's inside V'Ger's warpfield, therefore at rest relative to the spacetime which it occupies. We're not talking about two cars pacing each other on the road.

V'Ger was moving toward Earth at warp speed, and didn't begin to decelerate until it reached the solar system, so the Enterprise would have to be at warp speed as well, at least while they're moving through the cloud, or else they'd have been left far behind.

But the cloud must be inside the warpfield, or it wouldn't be moving faster than light along with V'Ger. If the E is in the cloud, then it must be inside the warpfield, and is therefore getting carried along inside V'Ger's pocket spacetime. It doesn't need to be at warp under its own power.

Remember, it was Jesco Von Puttkamer in his TMP technical notes who first delineated the notion of a warpfield as a spacetime bubble or pocket moving relative to surrounding spacetime while the ship inside it was at relative rest (16 years before Miguel Alcubierre ignited theoretical physicists' interest in warp propulsion with essentially the same idea presented in a more formal and mathematically rigorous context). So it seems to me that that's the paradigm that should be applied to the film, even aside from the fact that it's the way warp drive would really work if it were really practical.

 

[trevanian]

But the cloud must be inside the warpfield, or it wouldn't be moving faster than light along with V'Ger. If the E is in the cloud, then it must be inside the warpfield, and is therefore getting carried along inside V'Ger's pocket spacetime. It doesn't need to be at warp under its own power.

We're still dealing in heavily speculative stuff here, so given the lack of explanation for the cloud in the film (it is basically there to keep us from seeing the ship), you can blue-sky any notion, even that the cloud is kind of warpfield excrement (excremescence?) The cloud has got all sorts of order in it, like that seemingly solid corridor the ship goes through right before they see Vger's ass end, and they are overtaking from behind (again, not made clear in the film), so it could be that the cloud is primarily behind the vger craft.

If you REALLY want it your way, then imagine a line about them 'matching warpfields' or somesuch. I seem to remember Diane Duane having ships do that in MY ENEMY MY ALLY, but for me, it works much better if the Enterprise is really having to hold position that close at a colossal ftl velocity.

 

[Psion]

Perhaps Enterprise was being carried along by V'ger's warp field, but there was still some utility to maintaining an independent warp field from V'ger. To reduce mass, perhaps, or to otherwise shield Enterprise from "subspace harmonics" produced by V'ger's warp drive. Or maybe Sulu was keeping the engines hot, but not producing an active warp drive as a precaution. Or maybe Spock wanted to study the interactions between the starship's warp emmissions and V'ger's. As Trevannian says, there are a ton of blue-sky rationalizations.

To me, it's clear that the implication of the film's FX is when the nacelles are lit, the warp engines are running. Subsequent efforts in Trek missed this subtle indicator.

 

[Data Holmes]

Perhaps Enterprise was being carried along by V'ger's warp field, but there was still some utility to maintaining an independent warp field from V'ger. To reduce mass, perhaps, or to otherwise shield Enterprise from "subspace harmonics" produced by V'ger's warp drive. Or maybe Sulu was keeping the engines hot, but not producing an active warp drive as a precaution. Or maybe Spock wanted to study the interactions between the starship's warp emmissions and V'ger's. As Trevannian says, there are a ton of blue-sky rationalizations.

To me, it's clear that the implication of the film's FX is when the nacelles are lit, the warp engines are running. Subsequent efforts in Trek missed this subtle indicator.

Perhaps the E needed an independent field in order to maneuver around within the v'ger field. Also starfleet reported that the cloud was demising, so perhaps it was slowly losing the cloud as it traveled, like a comit. The E went in on the front side of the field, but the back side was a long tail.

 

[trevanian]

Perhaps Enterprise was being carried along by V'ger's warp field, but there was still some utility to maintaining an independent warp field from V'ger. To reduce mass, perhaps, or to otherwise shield Enterprise from "subspace harmonics" produced by V'ger's warp drive. Or maybe Sulu was keeping the engines hot, but not producing an active warp drive as a precaution. Or maybe Spock wanted to study the interactions between the starship's warp emmissions and V'ger's. As Trevannian says, there are a ton of blue-sky rationalizations.

To me, it's clear that the implication of the film's FX is when the nacelles are lit, the warp engines are running. Subsequent efforts in Trek missed this subtle indicator.

Wow, lots of views expressed, but without arrows being fired. Wish this worked in the other movie forum here ...

 

[QuasarVM]

Quick question on the footage, is there any audio at all with these (i.e. an optical audio track), or are they silent clips?

The footage I telecined was from raw, unedited work prints, so unfortunately, there is no audio. However, you only really notice sound missing in one scene that shows a medium close-up of Kirk. In that scene, he is reacting to getting swarmed with the crystals (which haven't been added yet, BTW) and calling to the bridge.

Um, yeah...cool...

When are we gonna see this stuff?

 

[Psion]

Perhaps Enterprise was being carried along by V'ger's warp field, but there was still some utility to maintaining an independent warp field from V'ger. To reduce mass, perhaps, or to otherwise shield Enterprise from "subspace harmonics" produced by V'ger's warp drive. Or maybe Sulu was keeping the engines hot, but not producing an active warp drive as a precaution. Or maybe Spock wanted to study the interactions between the starship's warp emmissions and V'ger's. As Trevannian says, there are a ton of blue-sky rationalizations.

To me, it's clear that the implication of the film's FX is when the nacelles are lit, the warp engines are running. Subsequent efforts in Trek missed this subtle indicator.

Wow, lots of views expressed, but without arrows being fired. Wish this worked in the other movie forum here ...

This is a TMP thread ... it's like garlic to vampires.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

To me, it's clear that the implication of the film's FX is when the nacelles are lit, the warp engines are running. Subsequent efforts in Trek missed this subtle indicator.

Yeep.

TGT

 

[alchemist]

Quick question on the footage, is there any audio at all with these (i.e. an optical audio track), or are they silent clips?

The footage I telecined was from raw, unedited work prints, so unfortunately, there is no audio. However, you only really notice sound missing in one scene that shows a medium close-up of Kirk. In that scene, he is reacting to getting swarmed with the crystals (which haven't been added yet, BTW) and calling to the bridge.

Um, yeah...cool...

When are we gonna see this stuff?

We're working as fast as we can! Ya canna change the laws of physics!

But seriously, the site is undergoing a complete retooling, and there is so much new stuff to add to it that it's going to take time to get it done. Once the site is up, though, we'll add the TMP stuff. I estimate the latter to be roughly 4-8 weeks from now. And that's only an estimate.

 

[QuasarVM]

The footage I telecined was from raw, unedited work prints, so unfortunately, there is no audio. However, you only really notice sound missing in one scene that shows a medium close-up of Kirk. In that scene, he is reacting to getting swarmed with the crystals (which haven't been added yet, BTW) and calling to the bridge.

Um, yeah...cool...

When are we gonna see this stuff?

We're working as fast as we can! Ya canna change the laws of physics!

But seriously, the site is undergoing a complete retooling, and there is so much new stuff to add to it that it's going to take time to get it done. Once the site is up, though, we'll add the TMP stuff. I estimate the latter to be roughly 4-8 weeks from now. And that's only an estimate.

Heh! No problemo, my Trek brutha! I realize quality sometimes...takes time.

But you gotta realize, I've been talking to Curt about this stuff off and on for a couple of years now...

Now, you posting these pictures...and not puttin' out -- is a real tease!

 

[Data Holmes]

Has anyone ever found any of the missing footage of the ilia probe in Main Engineering pissing off scotty?

 

[QuasarVM]

Has anyone ever found any of the missing footage of the ilia probe in Main Engineering pissing off scotty?

That footage, in addition to the trench/memory wall and security guard getting zapped by the V'Ger probe have never been seen...

Some collector probably has all that somewhere hoarding *it* as well!

They're probably reading this post and snickering right now!

There is a still image from the Illia scene you mention at Forgotten Trek (big surprise, huh? ).

 

[alchemist]

Now, you posting these pictures...and not puttin' out -- is a real tease!

Me tease? Never.

 

[alchemist]

Has anyone ever found any of the missing footage of the ilia probe in Main Engineering pissing off scotty?

That footage, in addition to the trench/memory wall and security guard getting zapped by the V'Ger probe have never been seen...

 

[QuasarVM]

I meant MOST of us have not seen it -- myself included!

You are "bad to the bone", Dave!