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Did David Mack & Pocket Consider the Following About Destiny?

If the Klingons will join an organization I think it is more likely they would join the Typhon Pact that would not make demands on them to change their way of life and give up their military. At present it is more likely that the Klingons prefer to be allies to the Federation but I don`t think they will ever join them. It will be interesting to see how the Typhon Pact will deal with the Klingons in future.

I don`t think we should expect every alien civilization to become more like “us”, to share our way of morality. I find the Klingons interesting because they have different views and I can understand them even when I don`t agree with them. I don`t see why a warrior culture like the Klingons is bound to collapse. A certain balance is necessary in each culture and I think it is a good sign that Worf and Martok, for example, are working on that. But otherwise I don`t see a need that the Klingons have to give up the way they live or their society will self destruct.
 
If the Klingons will join an organization I think it is more likely they would join the Typhon Pact that would not make demands on them to change their way of life and give up their military.
It should be pointed out that, at this point, we have no idea what the Typhon Pact demands of its members, or how the Pact would enforce such demands. The fact that we've already seen the Kinshaya and Tholians launch their own individual attacks, and only being pulled back by the other members after the fact, would seem to indicate that the Pact has not quite solidified (or perhaps even fully defined) its authority over its individual members. Not surprising, since the Typhon Pact was apparently thrown together in a matter of weeks. I wouldn't be surprised (and I say this without having any foreknowledge of future stories) if at least one of these individual nations were to continue to pursue their own individual interests with minimal concern for the others.
 
I don`t think we should expect every alien civilization to become more like “us”, to share our way of morality. I find the Klingons interesting because they have different views and I can understand them even when I don`t agree with them. I don`t see why a warrior culture like the Klingons is bound to collapse.

Who was talking about morality? I'm talking about simple practicality. In purely economic terms, a nation needs a reliable supply of strong, healthy, productive adults to have a healthy economy and social order -- not just in terms of a labor force, but in terms of people with the education, skills, intelligence, etc. to innovate new technologies, manage the government and social institutions, etc. If too large a percentage of the population dies off or is crippled in violence, then the work force and brain trust of the society are diminished, and prosperity and progress suffer as a result. This is why wartorn regions like the Mideast currently (or Europe a millennium ago) are mired in crushing poverty, dominated by oppressors and fanatics, and unable to function on the same level geopolitically as the more peaceful, prosperous states.

All the self-induced chaos and destruction within Klingon society are not only killing off their population base and cheating them of healthy, vital, dynamic individuals who could be building things rather than blowing them up, but are wasting resources on violence and destruction that could instead be invested in growing their economy, advancing their technology, and improving their standard of living. I can't believe I seriously have to explain that it's more wasteful and costly to be destructive than productive.

Wars are expensive things. Bush's invasion of Iraq totally destroyed America's Clinton-era budget surplus and saddled us with record-breaking deficits that have now reached the trillion-dollar level. And that's a war that doesn't even touch American soil. Given the constant warfare the Klingon Empire engages in with its neighbors and within itself, I find it implausible that they even have a functioning economy. Even allowing for different economic systems in the future, I'd think they must be drowning in debt. Even if they had a moneyless, replicator-based economy like the Federation's -- and I'm not sure they do -- the profligacy of constant war and infighting would be difficult to sustain over the long term.


A certain balance is necessary in each culture and I think it is a good sign that Worf and Martok, for example, are working on that. But otherwise I don`t see a need that the Klingons have to give up the way they live or their society will self destruct.

Giving up pointless murder isn't the same as giving up the way they live. A culture can value honor and strength without wallowing in blood and death. Indeed, we know that's already a part of Klingon culture. We know from ENT: "Judgment" and from A Burning House that there are large segments of Klingon society who derive their sense of honor from things other than violence, such as practicing law or working a farm or composing operas. The battlefield can be the courtroom or the land or the stage, and honor can be won and strength proven in many ways beyond killing. That is already a basic part of Klingon society, and according to "Judgment" it was a widely accepted part until the warrior caste took over and marginalized it. So I'm not talking about the Klingons giving up the way they live -- I'm talking about them going back to the way they used to live before the warriors took over and forced everyone else to give up their ways.
 
Who was talking about morality? I'm talking about simple practicality. In purely economic terms, a nation needs a reliable supply of strong, healthy, productive adults to have a healthy economy and social order -- not just in terms of a labor force, but in terms of people with the education, skills, intelligence, etc. to innovate new technologies, manage the government and social institutions, etc. If too large a percentage of the population dies off or is crippled in violence, then the work force and brain trust of the society are diminished, and prosperity and progress suffer as a result. This is why wartorn regions like the Mideast currently (or Europe a millennium ago) are mired in crushing poverty, dominated by oppressors and fanatics, and unable to function on the same level geopolitically as the more peaceful, prosperous states.

The horrific state of Klingon medicine is a case in point. Not only is it very difficult for Klingon medicine to treat people, but some of the techniques of Klingon medicine are potentially catastrophic. I'm particularly thinking of the episode of 22nd century Klingon genetic engineering that aimed to import Augment DNA into the Klingon species but ended up mutating into a potentially catastrophic plague. Were any safeguards taken?
 
I think that you are all overplaying the Klingon propensity for violence.Certainly they rule their colonies/conquered territories with an iron fist and yes they do boldly go to conquer strange new worlds,but the "homegrown" violence always seemed to me at least,to be centered in the power-plays of the ruling elite.I mean,any society where you could become a victim of random violence on the street,well,that would be a society out of control,right?

As for the current state of the ST universe,well,personally I don't care for all this doom&destruction.Sure,politics and geo-politics are interesting,but that is what BSG is for ,Trek-boldly going,exploring,optimism.....remember those?
 
I don't want to guys to think I'm one of those people who thinks everyone should eventually the Federation. Because I don't, I just think it would be interesting to see what would happen if/when the Klingons joined. In fact, I hope that most of the other races, like the Ferengi, Cardassians, IRE ect never join the Federation, because it would get way to boring if everybody was just one big happy family.
 
/\/\Elaithin,I have read Destiny.
David,please don't think that I'm being critical.I'm just a grouchy old bastard.:rolleyes:
 
/\/\Elaithin,I have read Destiny.
David,please don't think that I'm being critical.I'm just a grouchy old bastard.:rolleyes:

Personally, if you don't want doom and gloom, I'd suggest Over A Torrent Sea. It's about the Titan going back out there to boldly go where no one has gone before again -- even in the face of Federation tragedy.
 
I feel like having the Klingons join the team, so to speak, was one of the strongest statements of Star Trek's morality of progress and peace that the universe ever came up with.

Agreed. Klingons as testy allies are also much more interesting than they were when they were just the bad guys. Watching how they accommodate their culture and their heritage with being responsible members of a broader community is good stuff.
 
It's probably fair to say that Klingon culture would retain its normative acts of homicide and violence... the Federation would probably require the Klingons to liberate all of their jeghpu'wI... Expansionism and conquest would certainly have to go....the Klingon Empire would have to modify its governmental structure to a democratic form.

Isn't there a good chance that if the Klingons join the Federation, it will be because some series of disasters gives them no alternative?
 
It's probably fair to say that Klingon culture would retain its normative acts of homicide and violence... the Federation would probably require the Klingons to liberate all of their jeghpu'wI... Expansionism and conquest would certainly have to go....the Klingon Empire would have to modify its governmental structure to a democratic form.

Isn't there a good chance that if the Klingons join the Federation, it will be because some series of disasters gives them no alternative?

*shrugs* Depends on when they join and under what circumstances.

ENT seems to suggest that the Klingon Empire became a Federation Member State by the 26th Century. Given another two hundred years, I could easily see Federation culture influencing Klingon culture enough that they willingly give up some of their particularly abusive habits and thereby become culturally acclimated to the idea of joining the Federation.
 
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